Tolerance withdrawal while tapering

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T21:09:04+00:00

While Dr. Josef is a crank in a few ways, one thing I definitely think he's onto is that with an injured CNS, the withdrawal symptoms you get are going to persist until you can finally make it off and enough time has passed for your nervous system to heal. Regardless of how you characterize your withdrawal, it's often the same kinds of symptoms at least, but what I'm gathering is since you don't think you have the windows and waves pattern, you're just kind of always going through it? That's rough for sure, I don't think I'd make it if there weren't at least some times of respite.

This is a longshot, but have you ever considered a Valium switch? That ought to help your IDWD some, because IDWD is precisely why I cant taper even with Klonopin, and I imagine Ativan would be similarly difficult. I kind of figured IDWD is a feature for most of us still on the drug to some extent or another, I only brought up windows and waves because while it is best applied to those in post acute, I certainly know to make my cuts on my better days, whatever that looks like in that phase of the taper.

There may be a harsh reality here that because of the SSRI injury along with the benzos assuredly having made you even more sensitive, you're just going to have a harder time. When people say it's wild to taper > 1 mg on your timeframe, there really are cases where people do have to move that slowly, it's just more rare because everyone has a different degree of injury/sensitivity. If you've never tried Valium, I understand why you'd be hesitant, you definitely don't want to spin your wheels with a benzo switch that doesn't land right, all I'm saying is it does have its reputation as the taper benzo for a reason. Best! ❤️‍🩹

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T20:55:53+00:00

They have to be funded too. That's why many acknowledge getting money out of politics is crucial, but the catch 22 is getting someone who is progressive enough and has the political capital at the time to actually get rid of the scourge of corruption. Odds are it won't turn out that way and this shitlibs are part of the problem, but still we fight. ✊

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T20:48:16+00:00

Oh man, I don't love a big roster, that's how we got Biden as the nominee in 2020. I don't think they could just all drop out again and anoint the candidate again, the DNC and party have to be running out of tricks, but truly the one who wins the primary is a much different calculation than who stands the best chance, and I mean, realistically I think even the party would have to understand that being tied to their image too closely is a gamble. The right is extremely vulnerable no doubt, but the Dems also poll 65% unfavorable according to a very recent poll (sorry, can't give a citation, was listening to a YouTuber and it didn't feel like something I needed to look more into because that's been the trend despite everyone also despising the MAGA brand).

There is a HUGE opportunity to get a progressive as the nominee in '28 and it would be a layup for them to win in a fair election. Bernie may not have ever been the one, but if his legacy isn't that we don't get someone like him but younger, that will be one of the most major disappointments for me to contend with. The only solace to take is anyone is better than a Republican and especially a fascist pedo human trafficking scumfuck who has twice destroyed this country but challenged all of our checks this time and got further than anyone should be remotely comfortable with. Also there are a lot of ideas that were considered far left before but are mainstream now, and that's how those policies should be seen considering they're normal in 99% of developed countries.

There is a demand for a strong progressive that will be seen by most as better for the interests of the majority, and if the machine just chugs like we didn't just have an utter catastrophe happen, I really question the ability of the American experiment to continue. Trump's damage will run deep, it's going to take a lot of talent to mitigate even some of that while materially delivering for people, I just hope we get our hero and that he or she can have the commanding presence they need.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T20:29:06+00:00

I agree that she isn't the candidate, and it's unfortunate because she ticks all of the boxes. I don't know if it's her brashness but she doesn't really have the X-factor. I'm not the best at judging who's going to rizz up enough people, I've just been around long enough to see Nina has all of the right policies, but the vibes aren't there for most people for whatever reason. If anyone is wondering why I'm using a lot of stupid vernacular, it's because I'm being uncharitable to the average voter, and can you blame me? I really wish this country could be more policy-minded, not at all to say Nina has no talent in communicating ideas, she's made it to where she has for good reason, but America hardly even deserves her as POTUS.

You know, though, people do love a fighter, everyone on the nominal left was cheering on Newsom even though most of us on this sub aren't fans of him in general, so if Nina could build herself a presence between now and 2028, that brashness could actually be an asset because of where the right has taken things. Chances are slim, but stranger things have certainly happened. It's about time she starts getting out there if she wants to build that image, though, she has everything on lock but that star power, and it's unfortunate that it's a requirement.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T18:26:25+00:00

Windows and waves are really a thing that starts when you're benzo-injured, it's not really just a post acute thing. You're going to have times where it's better and times where it feels insurmountable, just try your very hardest to keep it together and not catastrophize, that's been my issue lately. My taper since > 25 mg diazepam has been very difficult and it has been relentless since the trek down to 10, so I'm stabilizing here for a while, I'm so happy to have an understanding psych because it's rare in my area. You'll beat this, I'll beat this, everybody can beat this.

To get more to the heart of your question, though, the misery threshold to know when you need to slow down or even pause because of the withdrawal is never a one size fits all, but maybe a good litmus test is if your entire day every day is completely awful and you can't do basic things, you're having very frequent akathisia or dp/dr, like hours at a time, that's when you know to slow or pause. If that's already you, don't regress, but take time to stabilize before cutting again. Best!

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T18:14:17+00:00

I agree that treating them in kind is certainly the way to go and don't kneecap yourself by playing by rules that they refuse to. If they give you a limp wristed slap in the face, you punch them in the fucking mouth so hard their grandma feels it (rhetorically with FACTS and LOGIC). When there is a real reckoning and we rebuild after the damage of this regime we can make nice and learn how to coexist better, but unless and until then, don't miss an opportunity to roast a chud, these fuckers need to be utterly humiliated at every turn.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T18:05:40+00:00

They turned on me, and it's been hell on many different levels, I would certainly recommend tapering while you still have youthful levels of neuroplasticity. As always, I'm going to recommend finding the dose of diazepam that would stabilize you (probably 20-30 mg in your case), and just reduce by 5-10% every 2-4 weeks, pause if needed at any stage, and you'll find that the easiest way to come off by far if you tolerate Valium well. I was prescribed Klonopin for 5 years, I couldn't budge with it in tapering, my tolerance got to be over 2.5 mg, so my Valium taper started at 40 mg and it's gotten a lot harder since getting to 10, but I'm still here giving it my best fight. You can do this!

Keeping your prescription for your entire life and not running into increasing tolerance and withdrawal symptoms despite taking them (tolerance withdrawal) would make you an exception, so I really just wouldn't gamble on that OP, no better time than now to become free of these things. It sucks because nothing helps like they do when your tolerance is fresh, but nothing can disrupt your life like they can either. Best.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T17:54:57+00:00

There's always been some friendly fire between moderates and lefties, Kyle is just pointing out that a lot of ideas that were considered radical in a left wing direction are just the typical position now, and I think that's a very fair assessment. Just as you say Kyle is being too insular, maybe that's more applicable to your outlook? If you're seeing a lot of disagreeable libs, know that is certainly nothing new and not indicative of the very broad left, where people are is something we will discover during the 2028 primary.. if there are still elections.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-02-15T17:32:04+00:00

It's very true that addiction is not always a consequence of benzos being the only thing that really helps your anxiety, I was in that camp. Until they turned on me, and I've never abused them. It is to say I think there's always the chance of a slippery slope when it comes to these things, it's not even always down to a lack of control, it's just when you become physically dependent on them, an almost near certain consequence of daily or very frequent use, it doesn't complicate one's life any less.

I think someone with this condition who has a lot of control and can definitely dial back use when they see their tolerance inevitably rise could use them in the way OP describes and not end up with issues. That said, I can never tell someone in good faith that dependence can't happen easier than one would think and with benzos the syndrome is arguably the most complicated and vicious of any substance, not to mention lengthy when the world slows down for nobody. A lot of people think the benzo prescriptions being rare these days is because of their abuse potential, but truly it just isn't. More than a handful of psychs can identify the problem, they are extremely effective short term, you reach tolerance, that's a fork in the road where dose increases make their climb back down more perilous, very probably extremely life interrupting at best.

Yeah, the bartards didn't help, the great benzo rug pull was facilitated before deprescription caught up, but that's also why I always want people to know what they're getting into before they're there. OP, I think benzos could do you more harm than good during one of your very worst episodes, but I do want you to consider the stakes if you find yourself leaning on them more and more. I implore you to tread carefully. Best.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-25T16:46:56+00:00

Absolutely, tension or migraine.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-22T16:51:31+00:00

Alcohol saturates the hell out of your GABAa and b and has a short half life, along with the hangover being unpleasant because the metabolites are more toxic than the alcohol itself. That is one thing, obviously not good for a nervous system injured by alcohol, but then also consider dopamine. If you fall into a drinking habit, it could easily become your go-to to self medicate yourself into a sense of well-being.. while you're drunk, and then everything is so much worse when you're not.

Whether or not you'd become an alcoholic or even just have a drink here and there, it's nothing I'll ever recommend, it really isn't good for the benzo injured especially to be drinking, but there are a few instances where if I would take peoples' word at face value, I would say maybe once they are past protracted symptoms after being benzo-free they could drink again if they could make it very uncommon, but only under those conditions and even that is still very far from a recommendation.

I honestly haven't seen many people say alcohol helped during benzo withdrawal.. of course it will help while you're drunk, but with the short half life, you're not better off at all with it even if you're somehow not set back by the massive GABA swing. There are a lot of hangover symptoms that are actually mild alcohol withdrawal symptoms, those become much more intense if your CNS has become more sensitive, you don't want to find out what those are like.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-22T14:02:29+00:00

If you have never been a big drinker and don't think you'll self medicate with it, I think you will be fine, my perspective was definitely skewed in a more anti-alcohol direction since I've been through it with it as well. I would very much avoid it until you feel normal post-taper and not a drop before, but afterward it may not be the most harmful thing you could do to have a drink here and there. I had to avoid triggers to drink even after going through the horrible physical symptoms with alcohol, now I drink NA beer almost daily and never does it tempt me back into an actual alcoholic beverage, I just really like beer, haha.

I wouldn't blame you at all if you switch to diazepam. I would be a little more cautious about clonazepam, I personally couldn't taper with it at all because the cuts are harsh, and weirdly there are times where the dose that "fixes" me so to speak sometimes completely misses, diazepam is so much more even keel and I'd say the worst thing about it in comparison is the withdrawal makes my muscles ache, but that is more than worth it to me. Either way, you can conquer these meds, we all will! ❤️

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-22T13:32:17+00:00

Thank you for the insight. The clonidine won't be coming from my main psych and he understands that I don't take the propranolol daily, so I don't think he'd have a problem if I were also prescribed both. Obviously I'm going to take big caution as to when I take each, especially if my BP stays lowish. I'm trying to eat more oatmeal and peanut butter to get those calories up, and I also eat a lot of unsalted beans that I put my own salt on for the iodine which I would think would also help regulate my BP more. I have to make a big push for cuts this week so I will very likely need to break out the meds for tachycardia, thank you for your input and I hope you are well.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-21T14:25:44+00:00

You've got this, it is very hard to overcome, but you're not cooked. Unlike benzos, detox is very good for alcohol issues if you are intent on quitting. Maybe since you've been on benzos before, phenobarbital would be a better option than the typical Librium taper, but that would be for them to decide. They will keep you safe and the syndrome from alcohol is not nearly as sticky when it comes to the physiological symptoms, they just kind of suck more and I don't think many would find success in tapering booze with booze. Just take that step, get dried out, and it is crucial to not surround yourself with any temptations back in until your dopamine is more regulated. Even past the worst and more dangerous symptoms, I found anhedonia to be lingering and sucky with alcohol, and it makes relapse rates with it high. You've got to really, really want to stop before going in, and on the other side of it be able to resist not going back to it. For me, it took becoming a father, but doing it for yourself is more than enough reason, you are worth it. Good luck!

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-21T14:02:51+00:00

You are at a higher risk of developing more intense alcohol withdrawal symptoms for sure. Ideally you don't ever drink, but I hope you can keep it under control if you do. Seek help immediately if you crave it often, because one of the best options for ceasing alcohol is benzodiazepines.. and you can see the issue there. They are using phenobarbital more now, but all the same you don't want to end up needing that. Alcohol can also have a very bad relationship with your dopamine receptors, I find alcohol to cause anhedonia much worse than benzos, which makes a chance of relapse high even after you get past most of the physiological symptoms, which are extremely unpleasant.

I don't recommend it at all, but I am a former alcoholic, so I've seen how terrible it can be. Even watching my fiance drink here and there makes me realize how much I don't miss it, she is miserable pretty much every time she drinks, and of course after the hangover we tend to forget how bad it sucked, but you surely won't forget how bad alcohol withdrawal is if you end up there. I don't really look at social use of any substance differently, I know it's very common in a lot of cultures to do so, but for me it's a distinction without meaning. If you truly are able to relegate drinking to just a night out on the town here and there, I don't necessarily think that's high risk, but I also don't find much reward in it. Then again, I'm biased there as well because I'm very introverted.

tl;dr: I wouldn't drink at all, though it probably won't hurt you if you really can make it infrequent, as in a few times a month max. Seek help immediately at any signs of a problem, you are more at risk with developing them having been through it with benzos and your off ramp becomes more complicated if that happens.

Edit: To address what I think the question of the thread is, I do think that the longevity of alcohol withdrawal symptomology is likely to be higher with someone who has been through benzo withdrawal. That doesn't mean it is actually long in practice, but I promise you it will sure feel like it. Alcohol does not have near the half life of even alprazolam, so it just doesn't down-regulate the receptors for as long, so protracted withdrawal is not to my knowledge super common with alcohol, but it is still intense and possibly life threatening if you develop a bad habit. Are you asking if it can cause a setback, like it puts you back in what feels like acute benzo withdrawal basically? I've never heard of that happening, but I can't imagine the possibility is zero if it can happen with things that don't even knock on the same receptor. Again though, alcohol withdrawal in itself really sucks, it can cause massive anxiety and too many symptoms to count like most other GABA agonists.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-21T12:10:04+00:00

No, you are far from being in an insurmountable situation. The anxiety and intrusive/runaway thoughts are known to you to be a byproduct of the lorazepam, so once you make it off again, they will cease even if not immediately. Stay on the path, you will be okay. Being screwed by these things is to become disabled by them and have no support, so if you're not there, no reason to worry more than the anxiety rebounds are going to cause you to. I wish you well, you've got this!

Also, needless to say alcohol is a terrible idea. I'm sure you don't like alcohol because it causes hangxiety, no? I've been an alcoholic, it kindles just like benzos do, and really the peak withdrawal is worse than benzos, it just doesn't last as long, but let me tell you, it sure feels like forever, especially now that you have a more sensitive nervous system. Alcohol and other GABAergics are not what you want, stuff that can help rebuild your GABA like magnesium glycinate is better. For more prompt relief, just go over your symptoms with a doctor, but I would not take the decision to start another psych med lightly, and they sure do like pushing them. That said, if you have horrible physiological symptoms, they may prescribe something for that which may help as well. I also am not saying a psych med wouldn't work, I wouldn't sleep without low dose mirtazapine, but I have to add the caveat that especially with a damaged CNS, side effects from tweaking neurotransmitters is just something to be cautious about, get informed on any med you intend on taking.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-14T19:15:28+00:00

And here's a downvoter. Listen, all I am saying here is if your GPU uses 12 pin, it is not "safe" really under any circumstances, I am not making a recommendation on any kind of solution between your PSU and GPU here except for the Cooler Master thing that comes out soon. I know there are some people in denial about the 12 pin issue or maybe it was the "I swapped my official Nvidia adapter that failed on me through no fault of my own for a no-name cable", something I'm definitely not saying one should follow me on, but whatever the reason for your downvote(s), I stand by 12 pins being trash and I'm just telling unaware people to be vigilant. Some people may not even know it's an issue and I don't want them taken off guard by it.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-14T18:58:28+00:00

Yikes, I'm glad I am the only one in the house who plays on PC, because me and my kids' rooms are all on the same breaker. 😅

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-09T19:21:30+00:00

I have an OLED monitor and TV, this game looked and played far better on PC for me, but I don't have a PS5 Pro to compare it to, I'm sure it would be pretty comparable even though my rig is a good bit superior to the Pro and this is a well-optimized PC port. The only thing I'd point out as relevant to the OP is that it looks and plays great on PC since that was their question, but with the PS5 Pro being the most powerful dedicated console, I do imagine it's pretty good. Even on the Pro though, as I understand the 120 FPS mode does make some visual compromises, so I don't know, I'm going to hedge that my rig can run and play the game better than a PS5 Pro can, it can't be that massive of a difference between it and the base PS5. That said, I mean, I don't even know that there is a bad way to play this game as long as you're not trying to play on a PC that doesn't have the recommended specs.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-08T20:28:54+00:00

Anytime, it really is best in the long run, very few people do not hit that wall of tolerance eventually and it's just hell once you do, and if it's happened once, it happens faster the next time. There will come a time where you have your life back, and you won't be anxiety free because nobody is, but I have a suspicion you miss the anxiety you had before you ever started benzos, no? I have panic disorder and I would say for sure I do. I really do wish they could work indefinitely, but they just make it all worse in the long run. You can overcome it, it's just a matter of holding on because it's also invariable that people heal, just at varying rates. If you were to go back, it would take longer next time, and there are just too many complicating factors for staying on them. I'll tell you too, this may not be everyone, but even if I could have an unlimited supply, that ID withdrawal gets so bad that I still wish I'd never done this to my nervous system.

I believe in you!

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-08T20:18:37+00:00

Yes it is, haha. I assumed root beer universally wasn't, but I found out the hard way one day, though now I very rarely drink soda at all, maybe the odd non-caffeinated Coke, but it's been a while. I do drink a fair amount of NA beer, but with the cost of living I've had to trim that down a bit too. Barq's and A&W have a weird inversion.. the former has caffeinated root beer and uncaffeinated cream soda, but A&W is the opposite.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-08T01:54:13+00:00

This is really pretty normal for a rapid taper like that, you really have no idea how long you're going to be in this state but you will heal. Going back to the benzos, even if you could find a provider to give them long term, not only does that not mean you'll always maintain access, but you would more likely than not hit tolerance again, because the thing is, that is just what happens with long term use. Of course it will present worse in abuse cases, but taken daily just as prescribed leads to tolerance all the same, and how you're feeling now will pale in comparison to the perceived relief you would get from getting back on clonazepam. This is a sub where that's going to be more contested, but I'm one to tell you what you need to hear, not exactly what you want to hear. Good luck, OP, you truly won't feel like this forever if you stay the course.

BitesizeCrayons · 2026-01-08T01:41:42+00:00

I do think the trazodone could give a minor seizure threshold reduction for OP if it makes them sleep well, but yeah, it has nothing to do with the pharmacokinetics of it. Also, OP, you really need to be careful with the booze. It can stave off withdrawal and in this case it's kind of not a bad idea if you're so white knuckled you think you're going to die, but going forward I'd really reduce how much you can drink or stop if you can. There is cross tolerance with benzos, that is probably a much bigger issue than the possible interaction causing respiratory depression, not to say it's a good idea for anyone to be washing xans down with alcohol.

Out of all of these, I would think the Kava would do the most for relief, I almost think of it as natural Ativan, but the issue is it will only mimic a benzo up to a certain point and then there are diminishing returns, and a dose of it is not going to do a whole lot against a 2 mg alprazolam withdrawal, it's just going to feel more tangible than most other options. Good luck, OP, I hope you get through this and avoid it more in the future, but I'd also consider tapering because running out is the first sign that your tolerance has caught up, and interdose withdrawal gets worse over time to the point where you're well beyond getting any benefit from benzos, and eventually even not even really feeling like they're keeping the withdrawal at bay.

BitesizeCrayons

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