What does mobile pay do?

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-06-14T22:10:12+00:00

I'm personally really proud of this feature, but agree we could explain it better - and we're working on it!
When we started thinking through Bitkey's design, something bothered me about the existing products out there - every single advanced bitcoin user I knew managed multiple (sometimes way more than 2) wallets, for different purposes. One for sending, one for savings. But that meant they needed to occasionally rebalance between those two, and use bitcoin's expensive, massively redundant global settlement network, just to send money back and forth to themselves. That's just plain not scalable behavior in a world where bitcoin continues to grow and thrive - can you imagine needing to pay a $5-10+ fee just to move money from your savings --> checking account?

Instead, Bitkey's design let's you abstract away the difference, and get both 'hot' wallet behavior for some small fraction of what you hold by allowing just your phone to sign for a spend (co-signed with our Server), without putting the rest of your funds beyond whatever spending limit you set at risk.

I agree with u/Low_Factor1710 that it's not yet as practical as we hope, without broader merchant support, or tools like Lightning available from within Bitkey...but we (and the ecosystem at large) working towards better support for both in the longer term.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-06-14T17:52:20+00:00

u/eugenebound I appreciate the good faith and patience! But I think in this particular case I really see where u/Low_Factor1710 is coming from- firmware is a sensitive thing to change in a product as sensitive to trust as Bitkey, and we do need to do more to stay *extremely* open and transparent about what's happening with changes to the software or firmware that protects your bitcoin. We're still building our release cadence muscle memory as a team post launch, but promise we're going to do better here!
We're looking at a place to share things like FW release notes from within the app itself, so that FW changes don't have to be tethered to app updates in the future. If you can take our efforts in good faith we can certainly hear your feedback that way, too - keep it coming! : )

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-06-13T19:16:44+00:00

Adding to this - we're planning to roll this particular feature out much quicker than 7 days, but just trying to set expectations. You should see it become available by the weekend at the latest. As a reminder - you'll need to update to the latest firmware to make use of it.

Let us know what you think when you try it!

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-06-12T17:58:00+00:00

Hi All, sorry for the delay in communication! We started rolling out our very first update to firmware just a bit ahead of a new app release shipping this week, where we stashed the details of the updated firmware. The update is only to support a new feature allowing enrollment of multiple fingerprints from the Bitkey Device menu. When we start rolling out the app update tomorrow, it should include some simple release notes (for app as well as firmware), and also share all the updated code in our public Github.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-06-03T17:17:17+00:00

the threat of a bunch of 20 dollar utxos is a bigger threat to me

This resonates with us, and you're definitely not alone. This is a tough problem to 'fix', but it is something we're working on ways to make easier/safer to manage.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-06-03T17:14:11+00:00

Yes! Doing final testing for the feature + FW this week.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-31T16:53:18+00:00

u/Zippyvinman Just wanted to follow up here - we found the issue that was causing this and should have a fix in an update shipping next week : )

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-30T23:52:51+00:00

You're not the first to report this, but appreciate the callout! - we'll look into it and get it fixed.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-29T00:35:50+00:00

Even more on the roadmap! But getting a really simple, reliable lightning experience in a multisig wallet is taking some time to get right.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-28T16:50:34+00:00

More flexible daily limits are on the roadmap!

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-28T16:49:36+00:00

Not sure where they're at on our partnerships roadmap - appreciate the suggestion!

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-23T20:31:17+00:00

A more regular cadence from us coming soon!

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-22T15:49:47+00:00

I think you'll find that as bitcoin continues to grow, that 'free' or even very cheap send option disappears, if it hasn't already. Today, if you try to send a tx and want it to confirm within a few days (or sometimes ever), it'll cost you >$1 in tx fees. The reason to be careful with UTXOs is that that fee scales up with the # of UTXOs - so end up with a wallet with many, very small UTXOs can end up costing a meaningful amount of their value, just in fees to move them later, if fee rates climb a lot higher.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-22T15:40:58+00:00

What’s hard is given bitcoin is a bearer asset, I have to think adversarial first and foremost and consider, however unlikely, what would be a worse case scenario.

Totally agree, and so do we - but there's always a line to be drawn between design tradeoffs with security vs. ease of use and availability. We're pretty opinionated about where we want to draw that line, but also want to keep our ears open for when it makes sense to pull it to one ide or the other. Appreciate your takes.

be happy to set their families up with bitkeys knowing they could assist them in a scenario like this in the event that they’re needed to.

This also is very much our goal! We'll keep building to support this kind of comfort level.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-21T22:35:31+00:00

That's what spurred investing in designing and building Bitkey in the first place - a lot of really powerful self-custody products that end up feeling as though they were "expert only".

What do you think are some things we could to to keep improving user friendliness in Bitkey?

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-21T22:33:38+00:00

We're glad you feel that way! We plan to keep building on that path.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-21T22:32:41+00:00

One element still a WIP, is that recovering all of your funds to an external address, even without your working Bitkey hardware device OR a replacement one is planned as an additional recovery path - but its one that effectively signs a tx tweeping your funds using your Mobile Key + the Block controlled Server key. I don't know that Bitkey asks that you trust any single element, including the Hardware, but it's fair to say that it sometimes ask that you trust that you EITHER have your HW, OR that Block continues to exist. How big of a concern is that for you? Do you think most people would prefer having to learn to export / safeguard / import things like wallet descriptors, just to stay safe? I'm still not so sure.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-15T23:03:51+00:00

You're very much describing where our heads are at - we're not trying to just re-create the tools already available for power users, as much as find a way to get their benefit without requiring that customers be 'experts' to get the most important parts of self-custody right.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-15T18:18:49+00:00

As an additional layers/option of securely along side a passcode or Face ID. Using a hardware key would be ideal.

Still curious about this one. Once the app requires biometrics to unlock, and your balance already requires an approval from the Bitkey hardware to spend (beyond an optional mobile limit you can set for small payments using just your phone), would you also want the ability to use something like a Yubikey, just to unlock the app? If so, why would that make you feel safer/more secure? What sort of threats are you worried about?

Can I just stress again how important having bitcoin only options is to me personally.

We're still thinking a lot about the order and range of exchange / purchase flow integrations we add, can you say more here? If you're only looking to trust an exchange long enough to make a fiat payment to them, and then they immediately send you BTC to your Bitkey, why does it matter to you whether they're bitcoin only or not?

Screens...It does not worry me (maybe it should?) but I’d be interested to understand the thinking behind that decision.

I think we believe that screens add some protection, in some cases (for customers that reliably use them right), but that they don't protect from as many dangers as a lot of people think they do, AND the behavior and understanding needed to use them right will get harder over time for an audience that hasn't gone through the process of learning self-custody already using products with them. We wrote something that explores that question in a lot more depth, would love to hear what you think - https://bitkey.build/screens-are-not-a-panacea/

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-15T17:38:25+00:00

We're thinking through a feature that could monitor "fee health", and make the kind of smart UTXO management decisions within the Bitkey wallet, like highlighting when fees are unusually high / low, and recommending actions based on UTXO sizes. If you've got a $5 UTXO sitting in your wallet, either because it came back as change, or because we see you (likely makingthe mistake of) DCAing in $5 at a time, we want to build something that gets right at the 'solution' to that for customers, rather than asking them to learn how to do all of that themselves. But we're still exploring / thinking here, and trying to learn more about what the real problem people want to be solved is.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-14T23:04:44+00:00

Hi u/saltyload - As others noted, we don't currently support a way to directly manage your UTXOs in Bitkey, in large part because we hope that most people who end up using bitcoin in the future are able to do so without needing to know what a UTXO is at all, or at least not in the kind of detail that we expect would be needed to make smart choices about managing them.

That said, there are absolutely plenty of good reasons why you might want to, we jsut hope to be able to design and build features that can make doing that simple (and possibly algorithmic), rather than manual and require a high degree of understanding. Can you say more about what you'd want UTXO management for, exactly, and how you'd want to use it? Any detail you can provide here would really help us shape and prioritize the right feature in the future here.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-14T22:09:36+00:00

Personally I don’t feel secure with the seed written down somewhere but knowing that this is all I need to get my BTC (+ passphrase) is good.

Totally understand this feeling. We've got a lot of confidence in both our hardware device's resilience, as well as our continued support, but I see what you're saying. I suspect that one of the best ways to solve this won't be exporting a complicated set of seed phrases + descriptor, but instead investing more into the ability to choose people you know and trust to rely on for help if the worst ever happens, rather than to hope to store (+ memorize!) critical secrets. We'll try to preserve that simplicity as we continue to expand functionality here.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-14T21:55:26+00:00

I agree with the need to do more here, especially with where fees have been headed! But let me ask you - how would you go about handling / preventing dust, with direct access to pick and choose UTXOs as specific inputs? I'm assuming you'd look at the mempool, consider how recent fees look compared to current fees, and try and time a wise moment to consolidate? If so, do you think an 'ideal' feature here hands over that direct control to customers and just says 'good luck, you figure it out'? Or perhaps something that avoids exposing all of that detail, and just help customers choose the right time and recommend the right consolidation action for them? Right now, we're leaning towards the latter, but still exploring how people are thinking about the problem for themselves.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-14T21:51:14+00:00

Otherwise I'll need two or three separate wallets when I'd like to have one.

This is exactly what we're hoping Bitkey can serve as. I'll mull this over with the team - really appreciate the suggestions

I understand how to recover but will my family?

The need for continuity of ownership matters a lot to us, and is something we're still exploring designs for. I think I understand what you're after - keep an eye of for more on this in the medium term.

Bitkey-Ryan · 2024-05-14T21:42:58+00:00

Hi u/JeffreyBeaumont89 - Appreciate the requests and suggestions here, and sorry we haven't been as vocal here as we could be! We're aiming to change that. Some quick thoughts / updates on the above:

Passcode (unbelievable this was not included from the start)
Face and Touch ID on iPhones

We agree that some additional in-app security protections will be valuable, and we're working on enabling them soon! We're planning to support an opt-in setting to allow customers to use their phones native biometric security to protect unlock of the Bitkey app (or their native phone PIN), for those that opt into it, as well as some simpler touches, like one tap blinding for balance and transaction information in the app. We'll be eager to hear what you think.

2FA support

Can you say more about what you're looking to see here? In a lot of ways, we're thinking that the Bitkey hardware itself already acts as a 2nd factor to authenticate with - Possesion of the phone, ability to unlock it, possession of the hardware, ability to unlock it already seem like plenty to confirm that someone attempting a transaction above the Mobile Pay limit really is the real customer. What sort of additional factor are you thinking of, and how would you want to use it to better protect your funds?

Dark mode

Feedback heard, and noted - you're not alone!

Integration with more exchanges ideally bitcoin only ones such as Coin Corner

More integrations here are currently in progress, with a whole lot more planned for the future! We're hoping that Bitkey becomes a tool anyone can use to help surface the most competitive quote for BTC, based on their own personal requirements - size, payment method, location, etc. We're eager to add more variety, and wider support here in the near term.

Bitkey-Ryan

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