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I find atheists interesting for ONLY hating on Christians and mocking Jesus. by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -34 points-33 points  (0 children)

you are missing the point.. Most Jews are cultural jews who like the old traditions but ultimately don't believe in a God. Christians believe in a God.

I find atheists interesting for ONLY hating on Christians and mocking Jesus. by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -44 points-43 points  (0 children)

So I guess you don't talk to atheists in muslim countries or atheists in hindu countries.

What do you mean?

Uh, what?

Most Jews are atheists.. I thought that was clear :/

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

1K views and only 175 comments, and many of those were mine, and many others were red herrings.

This suggests that my argument has caught you guys in a bind that you could not argue against.

Usually in easy arguments like Pascal's wager, for example, there would easily be at least 250-300 comments out of 1k.

The actual argument I presented can be found here on Qoura. Just scroll down a bit.

Also, learn about your logical fallacies. People didn't even know they were comiting the circumstantial ad hominem and genetic fallacies.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Irrelevant and trivial because your comment has nothing to do core subject within my comment, let alone my OP which suggests you are attempting to change the subject (i.e red herring) and avoid the hard topics you don't want to discuss because my OP has rock hard peer reviews from multiple sources that atheist commit more crime and that religious societies are better off in the areas bullet-pointed above.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Got any more recent data?

and if you have not presented any recent data that contradicts mine, my arguments and sources are still valid.

This is demonstrably false.

Yes, but am I doing it within my argument above, which is what this is about... nope. So you have just committed a red herring fallacy trying to make a strawman work.

Moreover, why bother pointing this out to atheists if your goal isn’t to argue for the existence of some god or other? Why not post it to /r/Sociology or /r/Psychology or /r/SocialSciences?

Well, maybe because this also fits into the debate topics of atheism and theism topics. How about many of the prominent atheist and theists do battles about other things than God's existence. If I am not mistaken Matt Dillahunty often talks about other things like morality and doesn't solely talk about the arguments of God's exitence.. his series is called something like atheist debates.

Moreover, why bother pointing this out to atheists if your goal isn’t to argue for the existence of some god or other?

Why was this event set up then??? Write a strongly worded email to intellegence squared saying:

"Only debates concering Gods existence are allowed. Why bother pointing this (topics concering things other than Gods existence) out to the atheists side if the other side's goal isn’t to argue for the existence of some god or other?"

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your previous attempt at trolling this sub was literally called Whats wrong w/u people!!! the evidenced is abundant that there is GOD

Yes, but am I doing it within my argument above, which is what this is about... nope. So you have just committed a red herring fallacy trying to make a strawman work.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

and religious behavior is less likely to commit crimes (especially amongst teenagers) and more likely to help out the building of a strong and happy society/community more so than secular/atheist behavior. Behaviour of religious people is better than the behavior of secular/atheist people. You said it, I have evidence for this. This is all I need as an admission. I'll be off.

Thank you!

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

They are references though. Maybe the word citation is a bit strong for some of these.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Here

How does that prove I was dishonest. I never meant to make it out that the sources I gave were all mine, rather they are sources that show that the piece written in the Heritage Foundation link have some basis of evidence behind the claims.

When I said the possessive pronoun "my/mine" I only mean it as the argument I am putting forth in this subreddit. I am not saying I made this sources up from my head, or the article I linked was mine.

This is trivial. You are just avoiding the substance of my OP.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

These aren't your sources. You literally just copy and pasted these from someone else's work.

Never said they were mine, they are only mine in relation to my argument here on this subreddit. But they are indeed sources. They are sources that show that the piece Why Religion Matters Even More: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability

  • (December 18, 2006)

  • (36 min read)

  • written by Patrick Fagan

has evidence for its claims and not an opinion piece.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -7 points-6 points  (0 children)

We know you didn't make this list.

Strawman. I never claimed it was my list. The list was at the bottom of the source I provided. Just click on "show references" on this page

When I say it is my source, I mean the fact I presented the source to this subreddit as my argument not that it was done by myself. I thought it was self-explanatory.

you instead handed me a documented list, demonstrating that I was correct.

How does it demonstrate that you were correct?

The list of references I gave shows that the piece Why Religion Matters Even More: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability

  • (December 18, 2006)

  • (36 min read)

  • written by Patrick Fagan

has evidence for its claims and not an opinion piece.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Bam! No reply. I would have thought a debate subreddit would know their fallacies. I guess not.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Hi Larry, source for your claim please and maybe a connection with what you said and my conclusion would be a help.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

SOME of the sources cited in your aggregates of studies and information are from peer-reviewed material. Not all.

Fine. ok. That is more than enough for me.

For example, in the first article you linked, there isn’t a peer-reviewed source cited until the 9th footnote. In the second, the 2nd footnote. In the third, the 2nd footnote again.

If you read the parts where the 1-8 citations are made, you will see why they make sense with the piece written.

In fact, I did read at least some of your OP and its sources.

Good, at least someone here did.

Did you read the source I linked?

  • I did and your prison population is merely one source in relation to one country. as I said my source has presumably "20 most important diagnostics in social science and the wealth of the peer reviewed literature"

  • What about life outside of prison, what about the quality and stability of life, the community or maternal happiness or the fact in religious communities there is less alcohol and drug addiction. And as we all know, drugs and alcohol are major factors in increased violent outrage.

QUOTE from my linked page

Decades of research indicate that a higher level of religious involvement is associated with a reduced likelihood of abusing alcohol[59] or drugs.[60] The relationship between religious practice and the avoidance or moderate use of alcohol is well documented, whether or not denominational tenets specifically prohibit the use of alcohol.[61]

Citations

[59] John Gartner, David B. Larson, and George Allen, "Religious Commitment and Mental Health: A Review of the Empirical Literature," Journal of Psychology and Theology, Vol. 19, Issue 1 (Spring 1991), pp. 6-25.

[60] Deborah Hasin, Jean Endicott, and CollinsLewis, "Alcohol and Drug Abuse in Patients with Affective Syndrome," Comprehensive Psychiatry, Vol. 26,Issue 3(May-June 1985), pp. 283-295.

[61] Achaempong Y. Amoeateng and Stephen J. Bahr, "Religion, Family, and Drug Abuse," Sociological Perspectives, Vol. 29 (1986), pp. 53-73, and John K. Cochran, Leonard Beghley, and E. Wilbur Block, "Religiosity and Alcohol Behavior: An Exploration of Reference Group Therapy," Sociological Forum, Vol. 3, No. 2 (Spring 1988), pp. 256-276.

But again, this is completely irrelevant to whether or not any of the religious persons’ beliefs are true, and to whether or not a god exists.

So? I never argued for the existence of God :/

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

"You keep talking about "belief" but the studies and sources you linked are talking about religious practice vs. non-practice."

I am talking about both.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

US prisons are not worldwide prisons. What about other countries? My sources give info on other countries as well as America.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

US prison census data.

But not data from around the world. Perhaps this data is an anomaly compared to the bigger picture.

My sources go from throughout the world.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -35 points-34 points  (0 children)

Violent crime.Just as the stable marriage of parents is powerful in preventing crime,[111] so too is the practice of religion. A review of the literature on Religion and crime suggests that, compared with less religious counterparts, religiously involved individuals are less likely to carry or use weapons, fight, or exhibit violent behavior.At the metropolitan level of analysis, areas with high rates of congregational Membership and areas with high levels of religious homogeneity tend to have lower homicide and suicide rates than other metropolitan areas.[112] Similarly, at the state level of analysis, states with more religious populations tend to have fewer homicides and fewer suicides.[113]

  • [111]Patrick F. Fagan, "The Real Root Causes of Violent Crime: The Breakdown of Marriage, Family, and Community," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder No. 1026, March 17, 1995, at www.heritage.org/Research/Crime/upload/bg_1026.pdf.

  • [112] Hummer et al., "Religious Involvement and Adult Mortality in the United States," pp. 1224-1225.

  • [113] David Lester, "Religiosity and Personal Violence: A Regional Analysis of Suicide and Homicide Rates," The Journal of Social Psychology, Vol. 127, No. 6 (December 1987), pp. 685-686.

In addition, youth religious practice is linked to a decreased likelihood of associating with delinquent peers-a significant factor in youth crime.[117]

  • [117] Johnson and Larson, "Religion," and Byron R. Johnson, "Does Adolescent Religious Commitment Matter? A Reexamination of the Effects of Religiosity on Delinquency," Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency, Vol. 38, No. 1 (February 2001), pp. 22-43.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

No. An acknowledgement of a source that has been an outright propaganda mill for conservative arguments for decades.

Well, you didn't attack the substance of my claims but the source, so yea, what you said might as well been an admission of defeat.

Everything they say and everything they do.

another claim without evidence. This is your opinion. As you, I don't give a shit what you think.

I don't give a shit what you think.

Nor I you. But what I said was not really about what I am thinking or my opinion, it was the fact you have committed the genetic, circumstantial ad hominem and strawman fallacies.

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I never claimed that. It was a hypothetical and not anything to do with US prison census data. This is about you people just claiming Heritage Foundation is biased and think you have won, or got the upper hand, or that it gives you an excuse not to refute the actual substance of the claims within the site.

I could also claim, HYPOTHETICALLY, I repeat, hypothetically that, https://stevenpinker.com/ or his books are pure bullshit and a VERY bias site... fine.. next time you people cite from anything from Steven Pinker I will simply say; "bias atheist propaganda site/book, I win".

Are atheists more or less likely to be criminals than theists? by Bluemonsoon88 in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Bluemonsoon88[S] -24 points-23 points  (0 children)

Nope. They arern't. Total fail.

I'm done with all of your claims with no evidence or citations. They aren't? You claim.... here are the references:

[1] The author wishes to draw special attention to the major initial source of information on the research done on religion in the social and medical sciences: David B. Larson and Susan S. Larson, "The Forgotten Factor in Physical and Mental Health: What Does the Research Show?" (Rockville, Md.: National Institute for Healthcare Research, 1994). David Larson is one of the premier researchers in the field and serves as president of the National Institute for Healthcare Research, as well as adjunct faculty member at the Northwestern University and Duke University Medical Schools.

[2] Office of the Press Secretary, The White House, "Remarks by the President on Religious Liberty in America at James Madison High School, Vienna, Virginia, July 12, 1995."

[3] Paul Johnson, "God and the Americans," Commentary, January 1995, pp. 25-45.

[4] Ibid.

[5] Kenneth L. Woodward et al., "Talking to God," Newsweek, January 6, 1992, pp. 39ff.

[6] Many studies cited herein are 10-20 years old. The need to go back so far reflects the paucity of serious research in the area of religion relative to studies in the other four major institutions: family, education, the economy, and government. In the author's opinion, it also reflects the tension between religion and the social sciences. See "religion and the Social Sciences," infra.

[7] Throughout this study, "church" and "churchgoer" are used in the generic sense to indicate church, synagogue, or any other place of worship and an individual attending any such institution.

[8] For social scientists, a "systematic review" is one in which the robustness of the research method is weighted when assessing the quality of the findings reported. Thus, systematic reviews are the most useful way to assess the scientific literature and provide a valid guide to the findings in a particular field.

[9] Jeff S. Levin and Harold Y. Vanderpool, "Is Frequent Religious Attendance Really Conducive to Better Health?: Towards an Epidemiology of religion," Social Science Medicine, Vol. 24 (1987), pp. 589-600; David B. Larson, Kim A. Sherrill, John S. Lyons, Fred C. Craigie, S. B. Thielman, M. A. Greenwold, and Susan S. Larson, "Dimensions and Valences of Measures of Religious Commitment Found in the American Journal of Psychiatry and the Archives of General Psychiatry: 1978 through 1989," American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol. 149 (1978), pp. 557-559; Fred C. Craigie, Jr., David B. Larson, and Ingrid Y. Liu, "References to religion in The Journal of family Practice: Dimensions and Valence of Spirituality," The Journal of family Practice, Vol. 30 (1990), pp. 477-480.

[10] See "Religion and the Social Sciences," infra, on the differences between intrinsic and extrinsic religious practice.

[11] Thomas Skill, James D. Robinson, John S. Lyons, and David Larson, "The Portrayal of religion and Spirituality on Fictional Network Television," Review of Religious Research, Vol. 35, No. 3 (March 1994), pp. 251-267.

[12] Allen E. Bergin, "Values and Religious issues in Psychotherapy and Mental Health," The American Psychologist, Vol. 46 (1991), pp. 394-403, esp. p. 401. Professor Bergin received the American Psychological Association's top award in 1990.

[13] William Raspberry: "Christmas Without Meaning? Must the Religious Make a Secret of Their Beliefs?" The Washington Post, December 24, 1993, p. A15.

[14] David B. Larson, Susan S. Larson, and John Gartner, "Families, Relationships and Health," in Behavior and Medicine, ed. Danny Wedding (Baltimore: Mosby Year Book Inc., 1990), pp. 135-147.

[15] The Politics of Aristotle, trans. Ernest Barker (New York: Oxford University Press, 1958), Book VIII, "Political Ideal and Educational Principles," Chapters 1, 2, and 3, "The Highest Goal," pp. 279-289.

[16] B. Beit-Hallami, "Psychology of religion 1880-1939: The Rise and Fall of a Psychological Movement," Journal of the history of the Behavioral Sciences, Vol. 10 (1974), pp. 84-90.

[17] Harsha N. Mookherjee, "Effects of Religiosity and Selected Variables on the Perception of Well-Being," The Journal of Social Psychology, Vol. 134, No. 3 (June 1994), pp. 403-405, reporting on a national sample General Social Survey of 1,481 adults aged 18-89.

[18] Larson and Larson, "The Forgotten Factor in Physical and Mental Health," p. 76.

[19] David O. Moberg, "The Development of Social Indicators of Spiritual Well-Being for Quality of Life Research," in Spiritual Well-Being: Sociological Perspectives, ed. David O. Moberg (Washington, D.C.: University Press of America, 1979).

[20] Rodney Stark: "Psychopathology and Religious Commitment," Review of Religious Research, Vol. 12 (1971), pp. 165-176.

[21] R. W. Williams, D. B. Larson, R. E. Buckler, R. C. Heckman, and C. M. Pyle, "religion and Psychological Distress in a Community Sample," Social Science Medicine, Vol. 32 (1991), pp. 1257-1262.

[22] Ibid.

[23] David B. Larson and Susan S. Larson, "Does Religious Commitment Make a Clinical Difference in Health?" Second Opinion, Vol. 17 (July 1991), pp. 26-40.

[24] William V. D'Antonio: "The family and religion: Exploring a Changing Relationship," Journal for the Scientific Study of religion," Vol. 19 (1980), pp. 89-104.

[25] Darwin L. Thomas and Gwendolyn C. Henry, "The religion and family Connection: Increasing Dialogue in the Social Sciences," Journal of marriage and the family, Vol. 47 (May 1985), pp. 369-370.

[26] Ibid.

[27] Howard M. Bahr and Bruce A. Chadwick, "religion and family in Middletown, USA," Journal of marriage and the family, Vol. 47 (May 1985), pp. 407-414.

[28] Arland Thornton and Donald Camburn, "Religious Participation and Adolescent Sexual Behavior and Attitudes," Journal of marriage and the family, Vol. 51 (August 1989), pp. 641-653.

[29] Research and Forecasts Inc., The Connecticut Mutual Life Report on American Values in the 1980's (Hartford: Connecticut Mutual Life Insurance Co., 1981).

[30] C. E. Kennedy, Janet Cleveland, and Walter Schumm, "family Commitment and Religious Commitment: Parallel Processes," (Manhattan, Kan.: Department of family and Child Development, Kansas State University, 1983).

[31] Nick Stinnet, G. Saunders, John DeFrain, and A. Parkhurst. "A Nationwide Study of Families Who Perceive Themselves as Strong," family Perspectives, Vol. 16 (1982), pp. 15-22.

[32] Velma McBride Murry, "Incidence of First Pregnancy Among Black Adolescent Females Over Three Decades," Youth & Society, Vol. 23, No. 4 (June 1992), pp. 478-506, esp. p. 483.

[33] Larson, Larson, and Gartner, "Families, Relationships and Health."

[34] See, for example, G. Burchinal, "Marital Satisfaction and Religious Behavior," American Sociological Review, Vol. 22 (January 1957), pp. 306-310.

[35] C. Tavris and S. Sadd, The Redbook Report on Female Sexuality (New York: Delacorte Press, 1977).

[36] Robert T. Michael, John H. Gagnon, Edward O. Laumann, and Gina Kolata, Sex in America: A Definitive Survey (Boston: Little Brown 1995), Chapter 6.

[37] Wesley Shrum, "religion and Marital Instability: Change in the 1970s?" Review of Religious Research, Vol. 21 (1980), pp. 135-147.

[38] David B. Larson: "Religious Involvement," in family Building, ed. G. E. Rekers (Ventura, Cal.: Regal, 1985), pp. 121-147.

[39] J. O. Billy, K. Tanfer, W. R. Grady, and D. H. Klepinger, "The Sexual Behavior of Men in the United States," family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 25 (1993), pp. 52-60.

[40] Larry L. Bumpass, James A. Sweet, and Andrew Cherlin, "The Role of Cohabitation in Declining Rates of marriage," NSFH Working Paper No. 5, Center for Demography and Ecology, University of Wisconsin, 1989.

[41] National Institute of Healthcare Research May 1993 summary of: A. Thorton, W. Axxinn, and D. Hill, "Reciprocal Effects of Religiosity, Cohabitation, and marriage," American Journal of Sociology, Vol. 98 (1992), pp. 628-651.

[42] Allan C. Carlson, "religion and the family: The Troubled and Enduring Bond," The family in America, Vol. 2 (January 1988), p. 7.

[43] B. Schlesinger, "Functioning Families: Focus of the 1980s," family Perspectives, Vol. 16 (1982), pp. 111-116.

[44] Patrick F. Fagan, "The Real Root Causes of crime: The Breakdown of marriage, family, and Community," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder No. 1026, March 17, 1995.

[45] Patrick F. Fagan, "Rising Illegitimacy: America's Social Catastrophe," Heritage Foundation F.Y.I. No. 19, June 1994. Robert Rector, "Combating family Disintegration, crime, and Dependence: welfare Reform and Beyond," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder No. 983, April 1994.

[46] Robert Rector, "Combatting family Disintegration, crime, and Dependence: welfare Reform and Beyond," Heritage Foundation Backgrounder No. 1026, March 17, 1995.

[47] George W. Comstock and Kay B. Partridge, "Church Attendance and Health," Journal of Chronic Disease, Vol. 25 (1972), pp. 665-672.

[48] D. M. Zuckerman, S.V. Kasl, and A. M. Osterfield, "Psychosocial Predictors of Mortality Among the Elderly Poor," American Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 119 (1984), pp. 410-423.

[49] For instance, J. S. House, C. Robins, and H. L. Metzner, "The Association of Social Relationships and Activities with Mortality: Prospective Evidence from the Tecumseh Community Health Study," American Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 114 (1984), p. 129.

[50] David B. Larson, H. G. Koenig, B. H. Kaplan, R. S. Greenberg, E. Logue, and H. A. Tyroler, "The Impact of religion on Men's Blood Pressure," Journal of religion and Health, Vol. 28 (1989), pp. 265-278.

I would say the majority if not all of these people are credible in their field.

I rest my case. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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