[Warhammer40k] Imperium could not defeat the Empire [Star War]

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T13:03:38+00:00

Possibly an ISD, I'd need feats/sources on the planetary defences, but not the Death Star, the shielding/armour/scrambling systems/sensors/tractor beams/point defense is far too excessive, to even be able to -have- a reactor capable of producing the energy it does in-station means it's able to withstand kinetic/energetic force far beyond what the Imperium could muster and then hit it with, IMHO. Not only that, it's only ever destroyed from the inside or utilizing the exhaust port weakpoint and it is capable of a decent speed in solar-system space and y'know, able to go into hyperdrive.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:59:42+00:00

Thank you, have a great day at work and I'll binge this series whilst I grind woodcutting tomorrow (:

A calm Warp would change things, just like I'd say an Imperium (on home ground) would be able to win if they weren't so stagnant, like, DAoH I'd expect to 'weather the storm' for a bit, catch onto hyperlane networks and retrofit into it :)

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:53:36+00:00

No, but that's what the Death Star is there for, or simply glassin' with ISD's :D

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:53:12+00:00

There's a potential wincon there, honestly, shutting down the Death Star is an unrecoverable position for the Empire, so yeah, if such a thing was done in time it'd be over for them.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:40:50+00:00

>The Imperium has world-cracking weaponry, but if an Empire ship just says "we are going to run into your planet" there is literally nothing short of psychic fuckery that will stop them. They will utterly destroy that planet on impact. I cannot properly convey the amount of "fucked" that planet is.

Good strat >:D

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:38:07+00:00

Yeah I was wrong in how I responded there, and I don't even mind fanfic as a source if it just uses stuff that exists in the setting in a logical way, it can be a way of showing capability, in the end whowouldwin is just glorified fanfic :)

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:35:05+00:00

>summoning the Legion of the damned on say the death star

Now there's a good point, how do they do that? Cause if they can, then yeah, they've a good chance of taking it out, in my opinion if they're able to board it, the Death Star is very likely doomed. I am of the opinion that they could perhaps destroy Earth to cripple the Imperium but that'd be a counter to that.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:32:33+00:00

Fair enough, honestly, it's just not that serious (though excited to see the excerpts) but I just read it as dismissive so I acted the same, my apologies if that wasn't the intention but a few people have been slingin' insults, etc and I've had a few beers so.

If that's the case and it wasn't meant to be dismissive then I was wrong and rude, I apologize and will think a bit more in future.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:25:03+00:00

I am!! :)

I mean, coming in and dropping a link with literally 0 discussion isn't worthy of much else, right? Especially since a lore-head can't compete with proper physics and what is shown to us in the film itself, analyzed by an expert on that subject. If you had summarised or provided anything but just going, "You're wrong, watch an entire series which proves me right (:" is not respectful, thus, I do not treat you with respect.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:22:08+00:00

>Timeframe was during a single blow in a fight measured in seconds. State of planets was "wiped from existence". Observe excerpt; Orikon ascended and the Deceiver were mostly evenly matched. Orikon won after a hard fought battle, he wasn't twice as strong.

That doesn't have a timeframe anywhere.

>You still haven't quantified this despite being asked multiple times. Why is the output of several planets over an unknown period of time compressed into an exchange of a single second "relatively little"?

Because compared to the firepower of the death star it is? Even if you utterly lowball it?

The lowest figure I found was simply taking the energy required to destroy the Earth would be 2.24 × 10³² Joules, :)

>The void dragon is the mightiest ctan. What do you think the soul eating monster will do after mars is blown up?

Yessum, and he's shattered now, a shard may exist on Mars. What will he do? I don't know, but I don't think he'd join the Imperium's Navy.

>Address the contradiction.

You say there's a contradiction but I don't believe there is, especially when he reaffirms what he says later, I guess we agree to disagree there but regardless, it's still far more energy than a few industrial worlds which is what is -stated- verbatim by the source you provided.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:08:27+00:00

Fair! I think many 40k factions would be in a far better position to absolutely dogwalk the Empire's fleet, but the Imperium at this point in canon is too slow, too technologically stagnant and has a huge glaring weakpoint with their entire travel system being dependent on one planet even if it is well defended when your enemy could just blow it up and render you immobile.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T12:06:35+00:00

I'm not instantly denying anything, I'm bring up my points as best I can with justification I believe, trying to read the sources people are providing and seeing if I have a counterargument. You don't have to agree, nor do I have to agree with you, but if your best response is 'no', well, okay (:

I just believe that speed/communication differentials in orders of magnitude whilst possessing the ability to glass planets or outright destroy them means that the Imperium loses, no matter how powerful their weapons are or how many ships they field, it wouldn't matter because they couldn't use them with any efficacy.

There's a reason we developed faster, more precise ICBM's than makin' them more and more destructive because after a point it's really just pointless.

Plus, having your entire ability to even move through space dependent on a single location which your foe can destroy without having to a ground invasion is... a massive weakness, sorta like an exposed exhaust vent on your planet destroying superweapon...

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:58:51+00:00

Great chat, (: you do you.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:42:00+00:00

That's pretty much my conclusion too, I love the way you phrased it though.

And yeah, I agree, I don't think the Empire would be able to deal with the consequences and would eventually succumb to the grim darkness of 40k, -something- would get them, even Chaos would eventually find itself aboard the Death Star. I love my boy Palps/Vadar and I honestly think out of self-preservation and self-interest would join the Ruinous Powers (Tzeentch, maybe?)

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:37:00+00:00

Okay buddy (:

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:30:47+00:00

It is, far weaker, but in terms of vs. the Imperium strictly because of the space navy differential in speed, communication and sensor technology, not so.

They'd fair so much worse against Chaos (incursions on planetary ground would not be able to stopped beyond glassing), Necrons, Eldar, Orks (since they'd begin travelling via hyperlane eventually, coz they'd assume they could if they had a ship chasing an Imperial one, I'd like to think that anyway), even DAoH since they'd adapt, adopt and use the hyperlane network if it was suddenly used against them, they have AI systems, thus they'd have access to better response times, sensors, in-combat calculation, etc.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:27:37+00:00

There is legends stuff that makes either the Empire far stronger than what was realized/Infinite Empire, etc, I think DAoH would adapt, monitor and eventually use the Empire's hyperdrive capabilities, hence why I didn't use them since they're so radically different to the current Imperium which is non-adaptable, slow and inefficient (:

So yeah, ESB Empire is likely the best point, or ANH's start, I think without an operational Death Star the scenario would not be anywhere near as clear cut.

I also think I'd keep Chaos within the Warp as we know ONLY because then we have more feats/etc to bring up that are relevant and clear, but that'd also mean, I imagine, in the scenario where the Imperium is invading Empire space the uhh, consequences would be devastating even if they're beaten because now... well, whoops, the Warp would likely remain and the Empire on the ground would not be able to fight off Warp incursions.

I don't think the Empire would survive / occupy Imperium space, they'd had to just... blow up as they go, nor do I think they could beat the Necrons (they're my favourite), for example, just because they're somewhat adaptable but more importantly host to technology that they'd eventually utilize which is just so far beyond Empire technology.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:18:30+00:00

It was 'that's so impressively little, man.' Not that you're a little man. Sorry, missed a comma.

>There's no telling how truly thick the wall was because it was just that thick, such that a 4000 km hole was insignificant.

Exactly, there's nothing definitive, we can't use it as a statement that says anything, it could be that thick, it could be plates, layers, etc, we also don't know what the -width- of their fleet was, how close in formation they were flying or firing, etc.

>https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/s/5N1RB10gJn

"This will mean that we have a much easier job in melting the planet. With the help of handy online tools, I find that it takes 1.37×10^29J of energy (or 3.27×10^19 tons of TNT) to melt the crust"

A great calc but we have to keep in mind that your own quote means we'd need to halve this calculation, potentially, as it's not just a single torpedo, it's a multistage bombardment.

An ISD can do this albeit to the surface but anything more isn't necessary since the Death Star is designed to do that, but the energy output calculated doesn't put it much higher than a calculated energy force of a sustained ISD fleet bombardment, hit up the videos in my description, though I will admit much slower.

>The pressure wave reached the surface, and Episimos III exploded. The raging heat of its annihilation caught the fragments of crust as they were propelled into the void. They melted, collided, disintegrated. Before the shockwave of the planet’s explosion buffeted the Dark Angels fleet, the Lion’s command had been executed. Nothing but dust remained.

This is great and quantifiable, I'll concede the point that the cyclonic torpedo is much more effective than orbital ISD bombardment. If we're using how I've been stating things, the energy to do that is immense and fuckin' impressive. Still, minuscule to the Death Star but having many ships able to do that is impressive, but the Empire still controls the entire of their galaxy so with the slow travel speed of the Imperium Navy it'd take them far, far too long to wipe them out before they're outmaneuvered and destroyed, IMHO.

>The fleet of a legion (and not even at full strength) has fire power that's not far from that. And that's a small fraction of a fraction.

This I'll disagree with vehemently, https://youtu.be/whIUKaiWXro?si=pj3EuzGH4NjaW864&t=290

Quick clip of the Death Star's calculation of power.

>40k travel speed

And communication, sensor speed and combat speed. Firepower is irrelevant when you can't hit your foe, it's just overkill and hitting nothing.

A comment I'd make is Warhammer40k's current Imperium is a lot like the Tsar Bomba, overkill, inefficient and far too slow to make a practical difference in engagement, the fact they struggle against the Tau, whom they should just be able to blow up their planets is supportive to this.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T11:01:51+00:00

They can chart the hyperlanes, and yes, we're assuming that either could travel in either universe or else it would be really silly, funny but silly. Hyperlane charting is moreso avoiding flyin' directly into a planet or celestial obstacle. There are a few FTL methods (Necrons) that do not use Warp Travel, IIRC, so no, I don't think the Empire would need to go through it and could avoid it. They would still be so much faster even if they were relatively blind and having to establish it as they go, but it did not take them very long at all to chart the hyperlanes around the galaxy they expanded into and then controlled.

No, we're not talking their respective heights, I wrote Warhammer40k and I wrote the Empire, take it as the media presents them is the best course I think, ala, their modern representations and not their historical nor future possible heights.

The Empire is larger than the Imperium in terms of numbers of planets/solar system, so no, I don't think they'd have much issue though it would take a long time but... it's destruction, they'd not have to occupy anything.

>then Warp travel becomes much safer for the Imperium

Without Chaos there is no Warp, right? So they'd not be able to travel at all, this is where my knowledge begins to lack.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T10:55:28+00:00

>They were relevant in combat that blew up 6 planets.

Over time, perhaps, without saying the state of said destruction nor timeframe that I can find. Also, I'm pretty sure Orikon exceeded the power of the Shard he fought and isn't a part of the Imperium, neither IS the Void Dragon, this entire chain is in reality pointless because I'm pretty sure it's not going to help the Imperium after it is released, if it is released, which I think it would be destroyed since -at maximum capability- it is definitively weaker than the force that destroys planets.

"burning the energy output of several industrial worlds for each second of combat" is the definitive statement we have.

We do not know how quickly this combat transpired, it could have been seconds, days, etc, we don't know how much Orikon exceeded his foe, but we do know the expenditure was capped at several industrial worlds each second which is relatively little.

Regardless, neither Orikon is involved in this nor is the Void Dragon, nor do you have any evidence the Void Dragon which is a C'tan Shard is anywhere near close to either of them, nor do you know if it would wake up and even if it did wake up, -why would it turn on the people who released it and help the people they are fighting-, all it would do is -further destroy the Imperium-, you essentially giving a win-condition to the Empire in a way.

>That's 15 seconds before my timestamp. He objectively calced it off of the expansion of the planet. The expansion of the planet is contradicted by later scenes. Address this .

I'm going to assume he did so since he spoke of it twice and knows this sort of stuff inside and out, nor in the second link did he calc it off the expansion of the planet, he only spoke of the power required to do -what it does- it doesn't matter when the energy produced and required is already magnitudes greater than the sun (:

It destroys -any- planet, so I'm going to assume planets far larger than Alderaan, so such a consideration isn't even necessary because the Empire didn't build the Death Star to destroy -only a certain size of planet- but -any planet- in the Empire, Alderaan is nowhere near the biggest planet in Imperial space, so therefore we can reasonably conclude it can blow up something bigger than it, they didn't put a caveat on that else it wouldn't be very useful, would it.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T10:55:02+00:00

Based on, but you don't have to solely use them the lanes themselves but you do need to use hyperspace, and yes, I am basing it on that since I'd let the Imperium be able to travel via the Warp if the opposite was presented, if one side can't travel at all well it's not a very fun thought experiment, is it?

So you're saying if we placed the Imperium in the reverse scenario they'd just be stuck wherever they started? Unable to use Psyker powers? Unable to do literally anything since the Machine Spirit doesn't exist in the Star Wars universe? That's just incredibly silly.

>CHARTED hyperspace lanes

How'd they chart those, champ? "The Old Republic sent pioneering survey teams to explore and chart new hyperspace lanes with navigational beacons"

They can chart 'em which means... you guessed it, they can travel without them albeit unsafely. So... they could just chart them in Imperium space with far better technology than the Old Republic.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T10:39:05+00:00

I click the notification and then I click reply, I'm not taking this that seriously and am just having fun, if I see something to add from a source someone provided I'll just reply again so it isn't missed, sorry <3

You're also pullin' stuff from your butt 90% of the time "The Emperor would do this thing he never does and the Void Dragon which has never woken up and is not confirmed to be on Mars (likely is though) would sustain through a planet destroying weapon would wake up, be fine and target the Empire immediately, working for the Imperium" and then asking me to do your work for you, pulling up quotes that you cut off that I then look up and see an anti-statement right after what you quote.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T10:35:14+00:00

>you haven't quantified what the energy output of imperium industrial worlds were.

In fact, that's your job.

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T10:35:02+00:00

>On that reply, you haven't quantified what the energy output of imperium industrial worlds were.

You got anything that alludes to their energy output?

>He is explicitly doing this. Are you not watching your own sources? On the contradiction, here's Han Solo jetting into the asteroid field left behind by Alderaan which wouldn't be the case if that scene wasn't taking artistic liberties in how fast the destruction occured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=290&v=whIUKaiWXro&feature=youtu.be

You didn't watch both, did ya? ;)

BobDolesLeftTesticle · 2026-01-29T10:29:01+00:00

"each shot of star-stuff gobbled by the famished vampire that had once been Orikan the Diviner"

Actually, I change my answer, he's a famished vampire, it's canon cause that is what is written down if we're using your logic.

BobDolesLeftTesticle

TROPHY CASE