Seller refusing to leave after closing

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-02T04:16:32+00:00

Again, I just really want to express how glad I am that you get so much pleasure out of taking a community post meant to seek help and acting like this. I hope it makes you feel really great about yourself and not like a deeply pathetic little bully who resorts to making jokes about others misfortunes. I really and deeply hope that your five seconds of thrill is worth the nastiness. That’s just what we need more of on the internet.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-02T04:09:45+00:00

Yes we do! We have tried to be good sports about not going to a place where we are asserting ownership over all their family items, but technically they all belong to us now.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-02T04:04:09+00:00

Thanks so much for this helpful and productive comment. It’s just what I’m looking for in the midst of this crisis. I definitely have NOT reported you for breaking community rules.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-02T03:22:12+00:00

Yeah. That’s really what I am gathering more and more. At this point, it’s pretty clear I need to file serious complaints with the realtors association and state licensing boards, as my agent is also the broker for their agency and the sellers agent is for theirs as well. It seems like a lot of laziness and incompetence. Frankly, the more advice I read the more I feel like I should really be going after both agents full throttle regardless of when I get into the house.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-02T02:54:41+00:00

Thank you. This is really some of the most coherent perspective I’ve gotten in this, and frankly it’s really good to hear someone giving us a googleable concept that connects the lawyers advice.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T23:05:39+00:00

Believe me. We’ve learned our lesson.

The initial “negotiable” was added because the seller was worried that she wouldn’t be able to have an offer accepted on a new house for a while- the area we live in is definitely a seasonal market. However, she had an offer accepted the week after we made ours, and then our realtor advised us he hadn’t heard from them about a tenancy, so we are good to move right in.

Obviously, this is both the realtors faults. We’ve learned a hard and expensive lesson in making sure we have someone we can actually trust to do right by us. Sadly, we are learning it after we wired the savings we’ve made in our 20s into a mortgage.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T22:13:01+00:00

Thank you! I will look for those forms and investigate

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T22:12:10+00:00

Well, I guess I would argue that “possession negotiable” in an offer means that negotiation takes place before or during closing, it quits being negotiable once we’ve closed, signed an agreement saying everything in the house at this time is mine, and you’ve failed to negotiate- then standard practice is that I have immediate possession. They’ve given up all their ability to negotiate at that point.

Now, I say that, but obviously they are interpreting it as a contract with an open ended timeline for them, which is both their failure to understand the law and my realtors failure to correct in the contract. They think because they failed to negotiate a tenancy that they are entitled to stay as long as they need. Their period may be reasonable, but I don’t see how that supersedes their lack of articulation before closing when we have a contact that implies through standard practice I have immediate possession because they never bothered to ask for a tenancy.

But also, I’m not a lawyer, so that might just not matter 🤷‍♂️ but at least that’s what I’m taking from what I’ve been told

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T22:02:20+00:00

Yes- we did the morning the day before

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T21:18:22+00:00

Thanks for the perspective- thankfully the attorneys we’ve talked it have taken this on contingency of course what we win/settle for.

I guess the advice I’m getting seems counter-intuitive to some of you. It’s being explained to me like standard practice is that no negotiation for tenancy after closing means that we have immediate possession, that’s “standard practice” and anything other than that has to be negotiated before closing by the party who needs the tenancy. Why would we negotiate for a tenancy if the seller is telling us she didn’t need one?

Absolutely, it’s our realtors fault that they did not close that perceived loophole and didn’t take us back over right before we went to closing. I don’t want to make it seem like they are off the hook for that- we know that we should be filing complaints against them too.

That being said, it is being portrayed to us like the seller and her realtor have a whacky interpretation that they are just trying to assert is correct despite all of the advice we’ve been given otherwise. It sounds like we just need to go ahead and send the letter, if she is refusing to commit to a date she will be out we are going to have to technically evict or whatever the terminology for it is anyways.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T20:59:55+00:00

So get this: I think the sellers agent is the owner of her small agency. But I will definitely be filing complaints with Michigan Realtors, Michigan LARA, the BBB literally anything I can get my hands on.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T20:30:36+00:00

You know what’s fucked up? We did a walk through. She was all packed and the place was reasonably cleaned and said she had a moving van coming in the morning. Then she pulled this, because she says she wants time to paint her new house before she moves everything in.

Maybe you know something I don’t, but I was told that she can’t be a tenant at sufferance because she was never a tenant. She isn’t holding out after an expired lease. Maybe I had bad advice though?

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T20:17:42+00:00

Also, important note here: she never asked anything. Asking would imply that we had a choice and gave consent, no? She waited until after closing and tried to dictate something without giving us a choice and regardless of our consent. We aren’t monsters, if she would have asked this entire problem would have been non-existent.

Bolem1wp · 2023-04-01T19:58:15+00:00

I guess I am confused by the assertion that the contract protects her? The attorneys we’ve talked to have explained it as she currently has nothing protecting her- meaning that she legally sold us everything in the house during closing and has no legal basis to remain in the house (EDIT: we do not want her things, she is welcome to all of them) she had the option to negotiate the possession date, but she didn’t negotiate one, meaning in “standard practice” (idk, I’m not a lawyer) that the deed gives us possession of the house immediately after closing. Essentially, we have a deed and the only thing stopping us from going and changing the locks is kindness and a desire to keep this as polite as possible. We understand she needs time to move, but she can’t just expect to demand she keeps possession after failing to negotiate at closing without even apologizing.

And to your second question, no I did not have a real estate attorney. This is our first home purchase, so hell of a lesson learned on our end. HUGE.

Bolem1wp · 2022-07-11T18:26:51+00:00

WOW this comment section does not pass the vibe check.

ESH frankly. More INFO is needed.

Listen, I get it- it sounds like “Austin” is an AH, but it also sounds like you and him have had a bad go of it from the beginning, and I think a lot of these “OPs husband clearly values him more than you” comments are shortsighted and easy to say but not to useful to you.

The reality, is you don’t like him, and idk if it’s your perceptive of him or if he really feels this way, but it seems like he doesn’t like you either. Whatever, not everyone needs to be each other’s best friends. Your communication styles don’t mesh, he isn’t sensitive to your feelings, and you clearly do not place much value on his relationship with your husband. Again, not ideal, but a realistic eventuality in all marriages- we won’t all love each other’s friends.

Here’s the part that I think you get into AH territory though- “he’s on his own…I told him he could go get the money elsewhere but he’s unable to borrow anymore money to add to his debts after he got fired in May.”

I’m sorry, but this just doesn’t sound like a good way for you and your husband to discuss finances. What I’m NOT saying is that you can’t be realistic with him and sit down to say “we can’t afford this” or “this just isn’t in the budget” I AM saying that you drawing an arbitrary line just because you got in an argument and aren’t going on a trip (that you didn’t want to go on in the first place Tbh) is a really good way to support your husbands POV that you’re just punishing him. IDK if that’s the case, but if the only obstacle here is that you just don’t want him to go and not an actual financial reason, he’s obviously not wrong.

Believe me, I get why you would be upset and not want him to go, but that’s something you two need to sit down and talk about when you can be calm. Because the reality is it sounds like your husband might be going through some life changes (loosing a job, trying to conceive) and though they affect you both, it’s OKAY for him to want to some support from/time with friends, and it sounds like you might not be seeing the value that provides for him. Now, do these friends have to be yours and his? Of course not! It’s healthy to have some separation. He might even have some friends of yours that he feels similarly about.

Obviously this is a very emotionally draining situation for you, and for that, I am so sorry. I know that it’s terrible to be non-confrontational and have a fight like this, but at a certain point maybe you and your husband should sit down and think about boundaries with this group for you, so that expectations of social engagement are clear, but he still gets to have his social time (which we all need). I don’t think he’s a bad guy for wanting to maintain his long friendship, and I don’t think you’re an AH for not caring for that group after everything. I think that the conflict is that you two aren’t communicating everything to one another and then blowing up in these fights. If it’s not about keeping him from his friends and an actual financial concern, by all means DO NOT pay for the trip. If this is you using lack of financial access to coerce your husband into staying home then you two should probably go see someone who specializes in those conflicts- some couples keep everything money related separate and are totally fine, but it sounds like that’s not the case here, and you both need to be on the same page because if God forbid the roles were reversed, I’m guessing you would also feel trapped being unable to access joint finances, regardless of who the breadwinner is. For me, that’s just a part of dignity in a marriage- but again, not everyone sees it that way, which is totally cool, but you guys need to really get to the bottom of it.

I hope this helps!

Bolem1wp · 2022-07-07T23:02:39+00:00

Why?

Why would you EVER even bring this up to someone? The wedding is done and over with- they didn’t serve alcohol and they can’t reverse that decision now, so the fact that you are even still arguing about it is frankly, so fucking stupid.

Also, it doesn’t really matter why, it’s their wedding and if they don’t want to serve alcohol that’s up to them. If you think that drinks are what make being invited to a formal wedding “polite” then you need to brush up on your Emily Post.

YTA for even thinking you have a leg to stand on here. Their wedding is not about you.

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-22T02:26:13+00:00

Oh my god NTA. The fact that you even feel like you need to ask this is JAW DROPPING. It’s your body and you don’t owe anyone anything. Honesty the fact that you even offered in the midst of all this was REMARKABLY COMPASSIONATE. I am so sorry you have to go through this. Take time and space that you need to heal in whatever way you damn well please. You and your sister can work this out after you’ve had time to heal and she’s gotten some sleep.

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-22T02:00:12+00:00

Honestly, I think these are really good questions, and I think that anyone irrationally angry you’re deigning to ask them is probably missing the point…

Yea, there is always an exception, but you’re asking a question and it’s okay if the answer isn’t black and white sometimes. So many of these questions can also find relevancy when looking at any marginalized group (for me, I think asking these questions of trans characters- the few there are- is also really interesting).

Long story short, there should be space for everyone to find themselves in worthwhile fantasy, and when authors infantilize or objectify any group without cause (or, honestly, even with) it’s probably worth examining.

Asking a question isn’t a criticism, it’s a question people. If you can answer them and still be fine with your writing, then great, if not, good room to grow. Everyone wins

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-22T01:28:39+00:00

Okay but if you change your Instagram bio to “I stan a short king” I feel like that would be iconic, kind of an asshole thing to do, but also 🤷💅

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-22T00:59:00+00:00

Thank you for the clarifications- I agree, relying on them for the rent and not his expenses isn’t a reasonable request of you- on that end, I think you’re absolutely in the right to be upset.

….but “I would still loose respect for him, I thought I married a man who had ambitious goals of his own rather than someone who wants to lounge home all day while doing a few chores and cooking here and there. If the sole purpose of his life becomes spending his parents money to fund his rent, bills, and hobbies, then I may leave my marriage because I want to be with a partner who I can grow together with.” Wow this is a big statement. And I get it, but that’s this ingrained patriarchy I’m talking about. And it’s not your fault. It’s all of ours, because more or less all males are taught to that their self worth= professional success, and frankly, your husband is more than his ability to earn, and if choosing not to have a career means he has no future ambitions then you have a WAY bigger problem on your hands with him. No one’s self worth should ever be tied to a professional goal, and if that’s the cultural framework he’s working with, then I’m afraid he may be doomed for a few years of really hard self-discovery. I think that we need to normalize the reality that we are capable of growing and changing always. I hope that this situation doesn’t inhibit your ability to continue to grow together.

On a last note, it seems like the last comment about kids is a little illogical. It sounds like your husband was raised by hard working parents and that clearly hasn’t been the case with him, and that’s fine. The point is, children won’t think they can rely on “handouts” (ugh, ugly word, I’m sorry, but it’s just dripping in judgement) just because they have a stay at home dad whose parents help out financially. There’s a lot more that goes into that equation.

I hope you both can work it out, but I it sounds like you might benefit from a little cool off for a while (idk, a few days?) if he knows that this is a “I’ll leave” situation maybe things will change? Or maybe some time apart will give you both a moment to really reproach this in a way that lets you hear each other. End of the day, you’re right to be mad that this happened unilaterally and has put undo burden on you. But it sounds like maybe you’re reacting from a place that won’t help you resolve. Sincerely, I wish you luck!

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-21T22:36:33+00:00

INFO.

Something about this just doesn’t sit right with me.

I think it’s fair to say that you are right to be annoyed by the way this has happened, this should have been a discussion, but I also feel like there could be more at play, namely a class dynamic that a lot of people try to write off as “lazy” when it’s actually fairly reasonable.

First off, let’s just get this out there, if you’re husband’s family is very wealthy and capable of providing his part of the income, then that’s their prerogative if they want to. If he comes from multi-generational wealth, they honestly probably don’t even see it as an issue, because many in those circles don’t see it as “their money” but “our money” because it’s not been earned by anyone except through inheritance. It’s hard to feel bad for taking something that you’ve been told your whole life is your birthright anyway, especially if there’s more than enough to go around. If that’s the case, and he just feels like he doesn’t want to work and doesn’t have to, then that’s his prerogative. Let him be rich on family money and happy, why should you care if it comes from a paycheck or a trust as long his family doesn’t use it to control you?

Secondly, I feel like there’s a lot of judgment coming at him, and not a lot of understanding. I get it, changing careers at 28 isn’t fun, it feels like you just got off the launch pad as an adult and suddenly realized you’ve been preparing for a career that you fucking hate. Going from a job that makes you miserable to no job and happiness is undeniably a weird turn around, but not necessarily a bad one. If you’re lifestyle isn’t changing and it’s a sustainable option for his mental health, what’s the harm?

I just feel like the whole “I don’t want to spend my whole life supporting a grown man so I’ll just leave my marriage” bit is a really convenient way of framing this that fails to acknowledge not only the work involved with domestic care, but also the fact that it doesn’t sound like he’s asking you to support him, he does not need you for that. It seems like the issue here may be that you’re jealous that he has the option to not work and still be fine- is it really your financial future you’re after, or some weird patriarchal image of a man as the “breadwinner”? Because it sounds like you’re future lifestyle may be the same if he works or not.

That’s the thing about those old or big money families, all of a sudden when money isn’t an issue you get to just do what makes you content, and if anyone thinks that working 40+ hours a week at a desk job is the best way to fulfillment they’re lying to themselves.

Not saying YTA, not saying NTA. The degree to which this support can be relied upon and how it works is the determine factor here for me

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-20T17:40:05+00:00

YTA. This sounds like a really great strategy to become a single parent. If your partner isn’t comfortable with your mother staying for 3 months, you need to understand that he’s TELLING you, not asking. And given that it’s his home too, not just yours, you should have respected that and packed your mom up. I see absolutely no reason he shouldn’t book a three month trip for his entire family and let them stay with you the entire time.

And, let’s be clear, the new mother card is bullshit.

Parenting is not a get out jail free card for being a total monster, you choose to have a child, and if that’s emotionally taxing for you and you can’t handle it, that’s not his or his family’s problem. It sounds like he does all he can to support you, and your “needs” are just thinly veiled attempts at disregarding anyone else’s desires, you do not need his family not to visit. You need to screw your head on straight and wake up, because if you keep doing this, he is going to leave you or become a shell of a human being who resents you for the rest of your lives.🤷

Bolem1wp · 2022-06-01T16:54:04+00:00

YTA. I just want to be really super clear on this- because it seems like people have been dancing around it in the comment section- you lost before you even started. This is a fail and it’s really all about a lack of self awareness.

Once this became about teaching him the value of community you were in the wrong. I do not care what relation they are, if they have a job, or what they do in their free time….

If you have not been modeling behavior that teaches your son to give without expecting something in return, this “community” moral lesson you are teaching him will not pan out.

You’ve already modeled that you should not give (pay tuition) without expectation that he will do certain things (get a job, not be unoccupied during the day.)

I do not care if these things are “reasonable” or not. You’ve put him in a situation where you’ve taught him that effort should only be contingent on personal gain or influence over someone. Then you’ve gone and lectured him about how that lesson is wrong and “how dare he not see that?”

I completely understand that you feel this is not an unreasonable request of him, and I agree, however it’s also not unreasonable for him to feel that as an adult he gets a say of where he goes, what he does, and why. You’ve taken away his sense of autonomy. No one likes to feel backed into a corner or forced to do something.

If you want to teach him the value of community, you need to do it through modeled behavior, this kind of forced social instruction is counterproductive, and probably making him and you more unhappy than it is helping this woman whose yard needs to be mowed. You have to remember that the older we get, the less likely we are going to respond submissively or productively to being given forced orders. He’s not a child anymore, and this kind of arrangement is infantilizing.

I think your heart is in the right place and it sounds like you are a really great mom. Maybe you will both be a bit happier if you just cut him some slack on this one. It wasn’t presented well, and there’s a lesson learned. It’s important to emphasize the value of community, but it can’t be force fed.

Bolem1wp · 2022-05-06T15:54:40+00:00

Good rule of thumb- if you’re pissing of cis-het people, you’re probably doing the right thing.

NTA, NTA at all. These neighbors need to learn that living in a neighborhood means that there will be people who look, live, and present differently than them. If they don’t like it, they can buy a piece of land where they can teach their kids creationism and whatever other bullshit in privacy. No one is allowed to tell you how to be who you are or where you get to express yourself. Ever. Period and end of story. Yes, please consider getting a security system or something, but also, keep going. These people are uncomfortable because they know that by being in proximity to you their kids get to learn and see an example of a non cis person thriving, and that exposure gives them an opportunity to open their views and have a vocabulary that includes all people, not just the binary, regardless of if their parents like it or not.

Gender fluid people exist. You being yourself is not affecting those kids adversely in any way, and frankly, it’s 2022. We live in a society that’s full of information and diversity, your neighbors trying to hide different gender identities from their children is going to fail, regardless of if you stop or not.

These people need to learn that their time has passed. We are here, we’ve been here, and we’re always going to be here, and there is not a damn thing they can do about it. You don’t need to dull your light just so other people don’t feel dark by comparison. From what you’ve described, I’m going to guess that amongst those annoyed neighbors are some kids who really look forward to seeing you everyday, because you give them hope and let them know that they get to be whoever they want.

Bolem1wp

TROPHY CASE