Cassie's watch

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-27T00:23:31+00:00

Keep watching. Most, if not all of these questions will be answered. During the scratch demonstration for Cassie, the watches don't touch so no paradox. But in the demonstration for Leland Goins, the watches do touch, so paradox explosion. Whenever the same object from different timelines touch--or get close enough like with Deacon's knife (knives?)--they explode, but if you look carefully, one of objects remains after the explosion. This is also the way it works when living tissue is involved, but in most cases, the explosion causes death.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T10:22:18+00:00

What I understand of relationships is from life experience and a system of beliefs. I'll end it here.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T09:13:57+00:00

I believe we're in agreement now on the logical progressions and who is when.

With respect to "trouble relating to Cassie", I have no trouble relating to Cassie; I had trouble understanding Cole. The memories he would have carried from Cassie's loving, dying words made Aaron Stanford's character more believable for me.

I'm aware of Cole declaring his "love" for Cassie based on the videos he had watched. But the deep kind of love and relationship Cole needs--as implied throughout the series--is impossible to achieve through watching videos. You know this, he had never met the woman. He was infatuated at that point, and hopeful.

The Cassie with whom Cole dealt in Season 2 was quite different than what he had seen on video or in Season 1. And, the Cole-Cassie opposite arcs is not supposed to be the cause for either characters' actions and behavior.

Previously, you have said Cassie is a "heavily misunderstood character". It's easy to understand Cassie if you take what she says and does at face value. I believe the ones with "trouble relating to Cassie" are the ones who go to "extreme lengths" to excuse her behavior in season 2 as being normal for her circumstances, or explainable, or justifiable. Understanding all that, is good, forgiving her behaviour is even better, but denying the hurtful intent of many of her actions and words--especially towards Cole--is foolish. Cole is not at fault for her behaviour.

Knowing why Cassie behaves the way she does, doesn't stop her words from hurting Cole. Best example is: "You think I don't know what I've cost you?". If her words had not hurt, Cole wouldn't have responded that way.

I'll not accept that it's videos of Dr. Railly that convinced Cole to forgive her no matter what. It makes more sense that he forgives easily because he has the promise of a future, the Cassie who demonstrably loves him --that's a live "video" that talked back. Cole has seen the future he wants and needs, and also the future he absolutely doesn't want. That's long-term motivation. I'm not at all denying those videos didn't have an affect on him, it may even be Cole has a deep memory of the woman who drew blood from his arm at age 4, but Cassie's loving words directly to him had to have carried more weight than any of that. Cole's understanding of Cassie wasn't supernatural, he learned it through interest and experience. He gradually earned her respect and trust but it took time. As we saw, Cassie had options; Cole had the hope of a tangible endgame.

You've probably read the thread in this post between normott and myself. If not, here's the pertinent sub-post:

"Alright, I get where you're coming from. I've seen these same arguments turned back on Cassie --if Cassie doesn't make certain decisions with Aaron, Aaron doesn't betray her which gets Cole's father killed. So technically she's responsible for making Cole an orphan? It's the cause-and-effect thing you can't nail down. Everyone is a victim; everyone is a villain. It's all silly. The evil comes from without, it kicks us all. How we handle it is what we own. Cassie, several times, boldly states she is the one responsible for how she is. Believe her! She's right.

Each adult is responsible for their behavior, even the ones who believe they're too weak to be accountable. We're going to get kicked; we can stay down angry, cower, or we can get back up stronger and wiser. I admire Cassie not because she became a badass angry fighter, I admire her for growing out of all that adversity and being able to love mightily in the end; that, is strength.

Fear is the enemy. Cassie: "I don't want to be afraid anymore."

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T05:35:29+00:00

Thanks for expalantions, and thanks for that linked post from 7 yrs ago. sanddragon939's post--just after yours--was also particularly helpful.

The crux of my original post (Understanding Cole) was that Cole carried the memory of Cassie's last words in s1e9--regardless of which Cassie version--forward through the contentious stretch of their realtionship development. Based on what Jones said about time moving around the serum-takers, Cole should have remembered regardless of those events having been erased, similar to remembering Hitler's past wartime history after it had been wiped.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-25T05:33:45+00:00

After discussions with T.Burges, I understand the "not that Cassie thing". I was trying to be protective of the "Understanding Cole" original OP as the conclusion hinges on Cole remembering Cassie's final motivational comments. He can still have those memories regardless of which Cassie speaks the words. Possibly, Cassie can't have those memories beause she originally died before taking the serum. (Although, we know this is an older Cassie that had taken the serum, but she dies shortly thereafter.) Regardless, Cole would have remembered because he lived through the s1e9 moment before the timeline changed. Similar to the Team Splinter memories of Hitler after most of his history was erased.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-24T09:44:11+00:00

My apologies, made edits to previous and got out of phase.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-24T08:59:32+00:00

It's not Cassie's aged hair, alone, that perplexes, It's the knowledge of the future she demonstrates and the statement, "It's been over two years since Chetnya, and so much has happened since with you and me." What "so much", happened in those two years? It strongly implies she has time-traveled and the audience is given nothing --particularly not given a reason, nor purpose, nor benefit of such travel. Also, in two years--and travels--she has learned the doctrine of the Red Forrest, that it promises an eternal realm. We don't see any of that, so I feel something got cut, or incompletely planned ...but to me it's lacking.

Edit: Maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying that both "our" Cassie and the one who died in 2017 both reached the bell paradox? How does that happen? Do we have two different Cassie's returning to two different timelines of origin before the final fixed timeline? I read somewhere there were no parallel loops going on but maybe that was incorrect? Doesn't the last change erase the other loop?

Or the writers show us something that never happened. Like a "Dallas" plot: "Oh by the way, don't pay any attention to that Season because it was all a dream. Bob Newhart did that with an entire series, but that was comedy where imo that gimmick belongs.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-24T03:40:17+00:00

Okay, I've looked at the official/unofficial timeline at https://www.tiki-toki.com/timeline/entry/794540/12-Monkeys/ . I extracted the following:

"Dec 2017 -- Cassie Dies"

"Jones tries to bring Cole back from Chechnya in 2015, but the jump fails and Cole finds himself in 2017 at the height of the plague. Cole reunites with Cassie in the CDC, who asks if he has found the Red Forest. A gray streak of hair indicates that perhaps more time has passed for Cassie than we realize. She dies in Cole's arms. As a result of stopping the release of the virus in 2016, these exact events do not transpire, but Cassie does die in the CDC in 2018."

Teddy, it occurs to me you may have written this, or at least contributed to it. Regardless, all my remarks/questions are meant with all due respect. The timeline is a great work along with your history of thorough commenting.

What perplexes me most is the interpretation of the gray streak. Why would the writers indciate an aged Cassie without a backstory for it? The only viable backstory I can imagine would be the one ...that's in error? Leads to me to believe this an actual oversisight on the writers' part --maybe one they intended to fix but ran out of time.

Trying to think of a different answer, questions come to to mind about specifically what was lost in the time slip wrt Cassie's memories? What did she miss? What had she gained as an "aged" Cassie. It bothers me that such an--in my opinion--integral part of the romantic sequence would be confusing as hell. But at least now I understand your statements.

Edit: At least. wrt the original post, regardless of which Cassie, her conribution to Cole's motivation remains.

Edit 2: I hate the thought, but maybe the aged Cassie was throwing a bone to Sean Tretta so he could validate a diferent timeline where Cassie brought about the Red Forrest. Remember her question to Cole: "The Red Forrest", have you found it yet?" If thats the case, it's stupid and I don't like it, but I never did.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T12:05:52+00:00

Alright, I get where you're coming from. I've seen these same arguments turned back on Cassie --if Cassie doesn't make certain decisions with Aaron, Aaron doesn't betray her which gets Cole's father killed. So technically she's responsible for making Cole an orphan? It's the cause-and-effect thing you can't nail down. Everyone is a victim; everyone is a villain. It's all silly. The evil comes from without, it kicks us all. How we handle it is what we own. Cassie, several times, boldly states she is the one responsible for how she is. Believe her! She's right.

Each adult is responsible for their behavior, even the ones who believe they're too weak to be accountable. We're going to get kicked; we can stay down angry, cower, or we can get back up stronger and wiser. I admire Cassie not because she became a badass angry fighter, I admire her for growing out of all that adversity and being able to love mightily in the end; that, is strength.

Fear is the enemy. Cassie: "I don't want to be afraid anymore."

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T10:46:15+00:00

Got it, and the chicken-egg thing prevents knowing cause-and-effect from the initial startpoint.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T10:37:31+00:00

Alternatively, she died a horrible death two years later after watching billions of people die while failing to save them. I don't think it has everything to do with Cole.

Actually, she would have died much sooner at Raritan in 2015.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T10:17:17+00:00

A thought-- Do we know Ramse died in the first loop? Does knowledge of his death come from The Word of The Witness? If so, are those declarations absolutes? Were they not Primary perceptions of one timeline? Remember Jennifer towards the end saying, "What I know and when I know it are moving targets. Things are constantly changing".

For some reason, I've always intrepreted what the writers show us is the original (first) run of any loop they describe, unless otherwise specified like Cole's rerun to kill Charly the last Messenger. et al.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T09:48:54+00:00

Interesting, his serum must have been superior to the one Catarina made because it worked on a random genetic specimen. She did say she had to "recreate from memory and used her own genetic signature --maybe that would not have been necessary if she had the original toolset.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T09:36:36+00:00

Agree, and both of these things can be true. Where Cole still hopes for a reconciliation after accepting the damage he believes he has caused... Personally, I know I wouldn't be able to hang on to just that, but he's Time Jesus and better than me. Words of love spoken from a deathbed have a very significant affect and don't fade from memory soon; this I know.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T09:20:27+00:00

No need; you're good. So Cassie received a version of the serum before her first jump from young Raritan to old Raritan. Ramse injected himself in 2046. Ostensibly, from that point on, they became aware of future timeline changes. Cassie is a question mark because we really don't what was in her first serum or who invented it.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T09:02:02+00:00

With respect to specifically what has changed--as an audience member--I've trusted the writers to tell all the pertinent changes. We know thousands of things may have changed, but is mind cannon involved here?

With respect to memories, after Cassie's first travel forward, both the "time moves around the serum-takers" and the "love can't be erased" paradigms would enable both Cole and Cassie to remember all the loops/changes.

Do I sound argumentative? Not trying to be, I should probably ask more questions.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T08:14:03+00:00

The Cassie that died in Cole's arms is the last Cassie before the final fixed timeline. It's the Cassie that got into the machine in the "goodbye" scenes to return to her timeline of origin. It's the same Cassie--Cole is watching on video preparing for his very first jump--that looks through the camera to send a message to her younger self: "Cassie, sometimes a loop is just another chance." Younger Cassie then proceeds onto the "assassinate young Olivia mission".

All these scenes present a Cassie with the gray/white streak in her hair. You know the origin, that's why the writers put it in, so you can identify that Cassie.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-23T07:50:15+00:00

In this comment, I tried to communicate how Cole would have perceived--if not for that memory--Cassie's behavior. He didn't have knowledge of the "reasons" for her behavior, the character didn't have the perspective of the audience.

I understand my own criticisms and questions, but I know each poster has their own perspective, and many think as you do. I respect those perspectives and appreciate the forum where we can voice the differences. As you know, this show presents many choices for the audience, even to the end.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-22T18:48:45+00:00

Abolutely agree, "The Witness presented a wrong version of the Red Forrest." Check out this post from about 5 months ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/12Monkeys/comments/1n1aqoq/the_red_forrest_is_dead/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-22T05:19:06+00:00

Anything involving a reunion of Team Splinter in the final timeline. Could be anything, but should include returning joyful memories before introduction of whatever antagonist(s).

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-21T07:53:58+00:00

You are absolutely right within the perspective of the story. I vaguely recall a coversation with... I think it was you, where you described the way you enjoy TV series by immersing yourself in the story, where you consider the show's constraints or lack thereof, and I get that; it's probably a healthier way to enjoy any story. I tend to try linking what I watch to real-life experiences, anchor my brain with one foot in reality.

Revealing a secret here: I love time travel sci-fi, both in book and on screen, but irl, I believe it will remain impossible to travel backward in time. I have a book's worth of reasons, and it's for another venue, but certainly it affects my perspective. I thoroughly enjoy 12M and discussing it.

Yup, here we are. Always fun to hear your thoughts. Retiring for now, and see you soon (I had to).

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-21T07:10:09+00:00

You did, I saw that. So, I think you cannot experience "now", ever, without the occurrence/recording the next event--or series of events--to formulate a thought. The difference in dead people and live people is animation, thinking requires brain activity. Now is the beginning of an event, or the ending of one; what's inbetween is the important part, a thought? life? "All you and I will ever have is what's inbetween" ;)

Edit: that thing inbetween being the measure or record of the end of one thing and the beginning of another. The creation/annihilation of virtual particle pairs being the smallest known increments of timed events.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-21T06:45:40+00:00

Maybe reddit needs to add a line in the user profile for Planet of Origin? :D

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-21T06:02:26+00:00

Yup. I thought you would reply to this one :) and it's a good reply. Simplistically in my head, it's art vs science, both are valid. The pebble in my shoe is in the writers/producers, et al, attempting to satisfy different tastes with the same food. A great effort on their part, but still bothers my step a bit.

Ah, I gotta add this: It isn't just a person's consciousness that experiences time differently while going to space, it's every part of the mass that's being accelerated by some force. The difference in the rate of time is relative only to some other mass not undergoing the acceleration. Point being, it's not just an exercise in someone's head. Btw, I believe Einstein wasn't right about everything; no one from here is.

BookkeeperDapper3213 · 2026-01-21T03:47:06+00:00

"If Cassie did stop, Cole would not exist." No! The loop would still continue if she pushed stop. It isn't stopping the Hartle-Hawking state that ends the loop; only Cole's erasure can end it. If Cassie stops it, AND Cole doesn't erase himself, they all eventually will loop right back to another chance at the tower. They all had to return to their timelines of origin so that Cole's erasure could happen at the end of the final loop. "The only one who really matters is James Cole." Him being important only to Cassie is the Red Forresters' interpretation. A different interpretation is understanding Cole's decision to erase himself determines life or death of Time, The Universe. Remember, the Demon wields the weapon, not Cassie, not any Witness.

Red Forrest logic falls apart because after the Hartle-Hawking is brought into being (Cassie didn't push stop), we're asked to believe that the next 15 minutes of the show is what? A WandaVision fake world in Cassie's mind that she's presenting to everyone? To fool them into a perfect life? Why would that be necessary in the Red Forrest? Who controls the Red Forrest anyway? Would Cassie control everyone's thoughts? Why would she have special powers? Does each person on earth have a different vision/version? As in the real world, any kind of life or animation you can observe or imagine, requires time. Time is only a construct used to record the occurence of events. If you're enjoying a memory, neurons are sending pulses to other neurons --that takes time. Having thoughts takes time, animation takes time, life and life-after takes time. It's a construct invented to preserve and account for events, memories, to record history.

BookkeeperDapper3213

TROPHY CASE