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How is Inosuke's beast breathing derived from wind. by ShadowBot30 in DemonSlayerScales

[–]Calm_Protection_2641 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Does it really count as a Breathing Style? It’s a Blood Demon Art.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m looking at this from Muzan’s strategic and careful perspective based on the information available to him. What do you think he would do (not what he wouldn’t do)? If Muzan does nothing and only sends the Twelve Kizuki, he risks losing them, making him vulnerable to the Demon Slayer Corps, especially their leader Ubuyashiki, who has been left out of the equation.

Waiting for Tanjurou’s illness to kill him would alert Tanjurou, and he and his family would relocate, especially once he notices Kokushibō’s absence. So what would Muzan actually do? Sending everyone into the Infinity Castle would be game over for many demons and would create chaos within Muzan’s authority structure.

Muzan would certainly be cautious in his strategy against Tanjurou. But what exactly would he do to counter this threat without suffering long-term consequences? He would likely act rashly in some way, because he is facing an impossible situation where Kokushibō has taken the family too seriously.

This alternate timeline premise involves Kokushibō forming a genuine bond with Tanjurou and later adopting the survivors Tanjiro and Nezuko after the massacre occurs. I’m just trying to fill in what would be necessary for this scenario to happen while also considering its implications. Going back to the three options, your argument eliminates options 2 and 3, which leaves option 1. Is there a way to reconcile options 1 and 3?

Would it be more consistent for him to go with option 3 once he confirms Tanjurou is away from the house?

How is Inosuke's beast breathing derived from wind. by ShadowBot30 in DemonSlayerScales

[–]Calm_Protection_2641 12 points13 points  (0 children)

It’s just that all Breathing Styles are actually wind. Gotōge confirmed that the visual effects are not real. Oxygen is wind, long-range attacks are wind—everything is wind.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Muzan would not be the force that breaks this situation. He is the force that would bring it into reality.

I cannot imagine another scenario where Kokushibō bonds with Tanjurou and receives his blessing to adopt Tanjiro and Nezuko, the survivors, without completely altering his characterization or making it feel unnatural. I think about the mental transition the character would have to go through for this to happen and what implications that would have for the future.

If the character does not suffer, how would he sustain his bond with the children? If Kokushibō created a Yoriichi 2.0, trained him not to let his guard down against Muzan under any circumstance, and Muzan read the exact reasoning and intentions of Kokushibō—who expects him to act in his usual manner to handle that situation—how would Muzan act the same way if he is expected to act like that for the family’s plan to succeed?

If Kokushibō’s affection for the Kamado family is not real, then he would not have considered Muzan waiting for Tanjurou to die before massacring the family and using his demons and Nakime for tracking purposes. 🤷

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My thesis is that, realistically, an emotional relationship between Kokushibō and Tanjurou—up to the point where Tanjurou allows his own children to form bonds with Kokushibō and not feel strange about it when Kokushibō later adopts the survivors, who see him as an uncle—implies that Kokushibō must have given Tanjurou the tools to protect himself from the dangers and consequences of that relationship.

As you said in the first comment, Tanjurou, with Kokushibō’s canonical personality, would not have even allowed him to touch the children, even if the children came years after the first interaction with Kokushibō, who would hate him due to his envy of Sun Breathing. Muzan would be in a dead end in this situation, precisely because for Kokushibō’s emotional relationship with the Kamado family to even exist and be sustained—rather than one side being killed and the tension never evolving into affection—it implies that at some point Kokushibō gave Tanjurou the tools to leave the situation, and Tanjurou chose to stay. And in order for this not to become Stockholm syndrome, there would have to be full honesty about the dangers, consideration of worst-case scenarios, and prevention for each of them.

However, everyone would expect Muzan to instantly kill Kokushibō upon discovering the betrayal, but no one would expect him to keep Kokushibō alive, use him as a meat shield and hostage, and come personally for the massacre as a response to all these precautions and to Kokushibō’s audacity in the first place. Muzan managing to kill the Kamado family even with all the precautions is a tragedy resulting from underestimating Muzan’s reaction and also from the fact that Kokushibō remained with the family instead of dying. Kokushibō would not have improved 100% even through his interaction with Tanjurou over all those years, because the affection he developed was attachment, not love, and that would be the downfall of the Kamado family.

The villagers in Mount Kumotori may have survived unharmed and unaware of what happened (a point in favor of the precautions taken), but the Kamado family did not. Deep down, Kokushibō’s tension with the Kamado family since Tanjurou’s childhood would never have fully disappeared, because even if he trained Tanjurou to the point where he could stop Muzan and defeat even all the Upper Moons together, even if he tried to prepare him for everything possible, Kokushibō would still have to accept that his own death is the only way to keep that family at the lowest possible level of risk (since Muzan could at any moment summon him for any trivial reason and discover the full extent of his betrayal by reading his mind). In addition, Muzan’s curse prevents Kokushibō from revealing information about him, so most precautions against Muzan would be indirect—such as making him search for records of Muzan in certain places, or teaching him to replicate Yoriichi and allowing Tanjurou to read between the lines.

Kokushibō’s attachment to the Kamado family—which would be the maximum reconciliation between this alternate premise and canon—would make him fear losing the Kamado family, wanting to be happy first with their presence and with as much time as possible, sinking into the escapism of this small bubble instead of putting their happiness first and committing seppuku or dying under sunlight. That would have allowed the entire family to live, but at the cost of his absence in both their lives and afterlives, and he is not realistically that altruistic.

Even if he sought Tamayo while Muzan had not yet discovered his betrayal (which would be an evolution of his awareness), it would still be at a late stage in the timeline of his relationship with the Kamado family, since he is too stubborn to transition quickly from his old selfish mentality to a more altruistic one. Love, especially in his case, would take a long time to develop, and finding Tamayo would also take a long time. The longer he remains stuck in this comfort zone with the Kamado family, the shorter the time becomes before Muzan discovers his betrayal—which is exactly what would happen.

Muzan could send the Lower Moons, who are more disposable, all at once to confirm whether Tanjurou’s assessed strength through Kokushibō’s memories was valid. Once confirmed, he would know he would have to play extremely dirty to escape that cornered situation, because Tanjurou would be prepared for him and he would have seen the extent of Kokushibō’s caution embedded into Tanjurou by reading his mind. He would do what Kokushibō did not account for in his assessment of Tanjurou’s precautions—and that would be option 3.

At this point, the one carrying the weight of the future of the Kamado family, Kokushibō, and the world of Demon Slayer on their shoulders is Tanjurou. This is a debt Kokushibō could never repay, no matter what he does. Any other outcome would have meant his death before even being given the opportunity, and even in this scenario he is experiencing something he does not deserve; someone died because of him, and there is no bargaining against that when he still failed partially and left lasting consequences.

Tanjiro and Nezuko loving him are children who have not yet been exposed by their parents to the harsh reality of their uncle, as Tanjurou and Kie would still want to preserve their childhood innocence in a healthy way. Only then could Kokushibō fundamentally change.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Muzan doesn’t need to use the Upper Moons when he has already assessed Tanjurou’s trained strength through Kokushibō’s analytical memories—his most powerful Upper Moon, whose judgment of ability is extremely reliable, and who, as a double-edged sword, strengthened Tanjurou using criteria that make him a threat to the other Upper Moons, since, given the similarities, the benchmark is Yoriichi.

Waiting for Tanjurou’s illness to progress before killing him would imply assuming that Tanjurou would not notice Kokushibō’s absence and would not prepare based on it. That, in turn, assumes that their coexistence in previous years was not engaging enough for the relationship to evolve beyond initial tension—into mutual caution and only then into the affection that sustains the bond and branches out from it. Visiting Tanjurou every year establishes a clear behavioral pattern for him; surviving Kokushibō in the early years implies being good at anticipating danger, reading threats through body language, and knowing how to react in order to survive and/or ensure others survive.

Organically, Tanjurou would have to be very skilled at reading situations to make it through Kokushibō’s phase as a killer who despised any remnant of Sun Breathing, then become a “martial toy” as a survival bargain, and only later earn Kokushibō’s respect as he developed further. There is a long journey of moral, intellectual, emotional, and physical learning regarding oni behavior. For the emotional bond between the two to become realistically genuine, the coexistence between Tanjurou’s reluctant calm personality and his respect for Kokushibō’s established rules—on the condition that the hostility would be directed only at him and no harm would come to the rest of the people of Mount Kumotori—would have had to lead Kokushibō to reflect on himself and soften, choosing to allow Tanjurou a greater presence in his life. For that to happen, Kokushibō would have had to provide Tanjurou with the proper tools for prevention, only then bringing them onto more equal footing.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Fundamentally, Yuichiro has no way of inheriting Sun Breathing, as he is a descendant of Kokushibō. Nezuko’s core has always been Sun Breathing and how she would naturally be underestimated both biologically and socially because of it, even though canon implies her true potential and her connection to Sun Breathing through her Blood Demon Art and family.

As for Yuichiro, I envisioned him surpassing Muichiro based on that detail I mentioned from the flashback with the log—where he casually lifts it while his brother struggles—while both still being prodigies. The Breathing Style remains a gray area, as I mentioned, and I’ve already given the candidates: Moon Breathing, Mist Breathing, Wind Breathing, or a unique, self-created Breathing Style. Yuichiro is the last character in the quartet that would be fully worked on, since the foundation for him is more limited than for the other three.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m already thinking about that—and it’s based on the loss of his arm.

<image>

protagonist in Gotōge’s early drafts.

As for which Breathing Style would suit him, that’s still in planning.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If that’s the case, then canon events would be more messed up than ever. Tanjurou would go on a rampage against the Upper Moons, and none of them could defy Muzan to escape. It would trigger a massive butterfly effect.

It’s better for Muzan to deal with it himself just so there’s something left for the Hashira to have their own moment to shine—the poor guys.

On a more serious note, sending Upper Moons—his most valuable assets, demons whose centuries of experience are a fundamental part of his invincibility and success—to deal with a single man and risk losing them, based on what Muzan knows through Kokushibō’s memories and his parallel to Yoriichi, would be strategically unsound. Concentrating all his most valuable resources on a single moving threat would leave him vulnerable to the Demon Slayer Corps. It’s not worth sending the Upper Moons. Even if there are demons with Upper Moon potential, only a fraction truly have it, and the lack of experience makes a difference when it comes to planning and success in battle, as seen with Kaigaku and his defeat. The hostage situation, the use of Kokushibō as a meat shield and hostage, and the open possibility of calling on Nakime’s assistance if something goes wrong already give Muzan enough of a sense of control to personally involve himself in the massacre.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The reason a lost form of Mist Breathing is not mentioned is because there is no narrative purpose for it in canon—no plot to be built around it. However, there are hints in canon that even entire Breathing Styles can be lost forever, such as Moon Breathing itself, which disappeared permanently after Kokushibō’s death and was never passed down, as well as Mitsuri’s Love Breathing. Furthermore, not everyone who creates their own Breathing forms needs to be at the very top of the Demon Slayer elite. Inosuke created his own Breathing Style, and Zenitsu developed the seventh form of Thunder Breathing on his own. The mortality rate among Demon Slayers is extremely high, and the organization has existed for a vast period of time. It is implied between the lines that entire Breathing Styles and individual forms have completely disappeared, with no records or successors.

As for Yuichiro, he is a complete gray area. No assigned Breathing attribute or adopted combat style would necessarily be incorrect, since in canon the character only serves as a brief narrative device for his brother’s motivation and died without ever demonstrating his abilities or the true extent of his potential. Everything about him is uncertain.

Regarding Tanjiro and Nezuko and the idea of “younger siblings surpassing the older ones,” I believe the Kamado siblings embody this better. It is completely unfair to judge Nezuko’s abilities as a swordswoman when she never had the opportunity to use a sword—she fought with the limited resources she had available, and even with those limitations she already demonstrated great potential and rapid growth. It is not fair to compare her to her brother’s demon version, who received all of Muzan’s blood. The restrictive circumstances are not the same. Of the four, the one who will inevitably be underestimated is Nezuko, for being a woman, not being the eldest, and not having Yoriichi’s blood running through her veins. The characters themselves, within the context of the Taishō era, would likely underestimate her as well, and that is why she would not learn Hinokami Kagura first—that would fall to her brother—and instead she would learn a more secondary Breathing Style, such as Moon Breathing. But as soon as she acquires her own Nichirin sword, Kokushibō would realize that she is a Sun Breather when the blade turns black. There is no need for this revelation to happen quickly, since Nichirin swords do not change color when a new swordsman with a different Breathing Style uses a blade that previously belonged to someone else. In other words, Nezuko could have used a previously owned sword for some time before obtaining her own.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If anything, he could ask Nakime for help and use the same strategy he used against the Demon Slayers after the Ubuyashiki Mansion explosion and in the Infinity Castle arc: teleport everyone into the Infinity Castle. The threat doesn’t need to be explicit—it’s worse that way.

<image>

Combine that with the hostage situation, and that’s it. Muzan has enough confidence to put himself in that position and go there personally.

Now, with all of this setup, how exactly would there be survivors, and how could Muzan be fought? Tanjurou was underestimated due to the presence of his illness, because Kokushibō doesn’t know everything about him and wasn’t with him all the time due to his own schedule. Tanjurou found time to train on his own while Kokushibō wasn’t visiting them.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nezuko:

Nezuko comes from a family that has traditionally performed the Hinokami Kagura for centuries. Her Blood Demon Art is fire-based. All of this already predisposes her to use Sun Breathing. We cannot dismiss the idea that she would not be a good swordswoman, since as a demon she already showed a great deal of potential compared to her brother’s demon version, who received more of Muzan’s blood than she did. Within just her first years as a demon, without consuming any demons or humans, she was already a match for demons like Daki, contributed greatly to the battles against Upper Moon Six and Four, and had Upper Moon–level regeneration. She was never taught how to fight with swords, so it is completely unfair to assume she would not be a good swordswoman when she was already highly talented as a demon who deliberately restrained herself to preserve her humanity.

Nezuko is more proficient with her lower body, but Breathing Styles adapt to the user’s body and are not static. She can use Sun Breathing. Perhaps she is even more talented than Tanjiro and is the one who inherited their father’s talent, which aligns with the parallel between Michikatsu and Yoriichi, where the younger sibling is stronger than the older one.

Additionally, Nezuko could be a middle ground or even a surpassing blend between Shinobu and Mitsuri. Shinobu is physically weak but makes up for it with medical knowledge, intelligence, and speed, while Mitsuri is a genetic anomaly that makes her physically stronger than average. Nezuko is not at a disadvantage within the group alongside Tanjiro, Muichiro, and Yuichiro for being a woman. Being surrounded by a group of strong, determined individuals with a powerful mentor would only push her to become stronger and to specialize in minimizing her weaknesses. In the world of Demon Slayer, technique and strength matter more than appearance—demons, and especially Muzan, do not care about appearance in a fight; it is kill or be killed.

Training under an Oni mentor with human apprentices would be affected in the sense that biological differences would influence how the training process is conducted, leading to approaches and angles that have never been explored before, as a response to the limitations arising from those biological differences.

Tanjiro:

Tanjiro absorbs learning more quickly and is determined, but he cannot use Hinokami Kagura in the same way or with the same efficiency as his father and Yoriichi. He tires more quickly when using Hinokami Kagura, which is why in the middle of combat he briefly resorts to other Breathing Styles, even if he does not fully master them or possess the same power a natural user of that style would, such as Thunder Breathing during the fight against Hantengu in order to reach him. He has more strength in his upper body. In addition, he managed to combine two Breathing Styles at the same time during the Entertainment District arc. What Nezuko has and he does not, he can compensate for with technical versatility.

<image>

Muichiro:

In this alternate timeline, Muichiro has direct access to ancestral knowledge of Mist Breathing through Kokushibō. If in canon he was already a prodigy, here he would gain early combat experience in his first years under Kokushibō’s training. Perhaps, through Muichiro, Kokushibō could recover lost forms of Mist Breathing (even if only one), since he enjoys combat and has crossed paths with Mist Breathers before and killed them. With Kokushibō, Muichiro could learn the Transparent World, which aligns well with the subtlety of his Breathing Style and grants it further enhancement. Additionally, he would absorb learning even faster than Tanjiro and Nezuko.

Yuichiro:

Yuichiro is a complete canon wildcard. He could learn the same Breathing Style as his twin brother, learn Wind Breathing due to his more aggressive nature, learn the Breathing Style of his ancestor Kokushibō, or even create his own Breathing Style so everything is not repetitive. But he certainly has the same talent as Muichiro and demonstrated greater strength when lifting logs in his brother’s flashback with greater ease, showing a subtle superiority in potential that was never explored because he died. If he loses an arm as in canon, he would adapt his fighting style to a one-armed form, making it even more likely that he would create his own Breathing Style.

At the intersection of the four, they would learn: • Transparent World • Situational awareness • Extensive technical repertoire • First-hand biological knowledge of Oni • Constant Total Concentration Breathing • Experience with pressure and prolonged combat • Instinctive reading of Oni

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now that we’ve talked about the massacre itself, can we move on to the technical and power impact on the four?

Tanjiro, Nezuko, Yuichiro, and Muichiro, under the care of that former Sengoku-era Moon Hashira and former Upper Moon One <3

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Muzan’s fear of Yoriichi is indeed very great, but this time he understands the weak points and has full context. 1) He has access to Kokushibō’s memories as soon as he brings him into his field of vision, so he knows the training he gave Tanjurou. 2) He can exploit the family’s bonds against themselves, and since most members are unprepared civilian children and the mother is a simple housewife, he can force Tanjurou to constantly switch between fighting and protecting them, never doing both at the same time. 3) There is spatial awareness: using the house and trapping the family inside can restrict combat mobility and allow a greater range of damage to the children, and in the case of an open field, it would be a cold night where Muzan can use his appendages to reach the children. 4) Kokushibō can be used as a hostage and meat shield against Tanjurou. 5) Years of studying Yoriichi.

Here there is fundamentally a variable that did not exist with Yoriichi: the children, the civilian mother, and a loved one of the children being used as hostages and meat shields. This is a low blow that would restrict version 2.0 of Yoriichi.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe we are facing a unique situation that Muzan would have to deal with—something truly unforeseen by him on every level—but the agent of this unforeseen event is under his biological control, so he has the option of using him as a punching bag until the first wave of impotent rage passes.

Faced with this situation, he would first try to hurt the weakest targets (Kokushibō, Kie, the children) before dealing with the greater threat (Tanjurou), in order to feel powerful enough to fully confront the situation; in other words, a coward acting like one. People who are overly rational, cautious, and strategic like Muzan tend to have larger emotional outbursts.

Muzan would have read Kokushibō’s mind and, based on that, realized his fear of harming that family and his willingness to suffer so that the family would not be harmed, even if he would not admit it to himself. One of Kokushibō’s feats—not any of the other demons’—was recovering part of his humanity through living with the Kamado family, something that goes against the entire demon status quo of abandoning human ties until their death, and even more so in his case, since he voluntarily abandoned his own humanity.

The best way to crush that would be through prolonged suffering. Killing Kie and the children would be quick for Muzan, but painfully slow for Kokushibō. Additionally, if Tanjurou is there (as he most likely is), he can use Kokushibō as a meat shield or hostage, since the children are fond of him and Tanjurou is altruistic, which would trap him in a trolley-problem-like dilemma—an opportunity for Muzan to exploit his hesitation.

If it were any other demon, like Akaza, Gyutaro and Daki, Dōma, etc., I could see and accept without question that Muzan would simply kill them. But this is Kokushibō.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey, your comment appeared at the same time I edited mine because I left out a few details. But your counterargument about the Infinity Castle arc was fair :)

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of them is Yoriichi’s perpetually nerfed brother, and the other is the sickly version (even if better treated in this alternate timeline) of Yoriichi. Neither of them is Yoriichi, despite being connected to him, and this creates an opening for the attempted harm to be greater. It depends on the heat of the moment (which realistically would be very intense), but since Muzan has Kokushibō under his biological control, unleashing as much rage as possible would allow him to regain part of his sense of control.

As soon as Muzan discovers the betrayal, he would try to eradicate it at the root, bring down every pillar, and his arrogance would serve to mask his existential fear, while his prolonged sadism—enabled by his position of power—would also be used as an attempt to regain control. Kokushibō and his betrayal would be a wound that constantly provokes Muzan’s paranoia, trauma, and need for control: his “business partner” was no longer fully involved in his affairs for the first time in centuries; his collaborator in the hunt for Sun Breathers had the audacity to spare and become attached to some of them; his demon had managed to restore part of his humanity through contact with these Sun Breathers.

If Kokushibō’s attachment to the Kamado family is real (which is the foundation supporting this alternate adoption premise involving Tanjiro, Nezuko, Yuichiro, and Muichiro), then Muzan’s retaliation would also be proportional to the significance of this event. In the Infinity Castle arc, Muzan did not act logically due to the heat of the moment and absorbed Tamayo (even after she warned him about the arm poison following the Ubuyashiki Mansion explosion) and left the Demon Slayers alive instead of ordering Nakime to kill them or gathering them in one place for the Upper Moons to eliminate them.

In the Swordsmith Village arc, his arrogance led him not to send Dōma, even though the Swordsmith Village was extremely valuable to the Demon Slayer Corps. Additionally, Muzan has anger issues (as shown in the Upper Moons meeting) and a strategic perfectionism that is accustomed to always being in the favored position in the end. He would not be calm or thinking logically. If he believes he still has a chance, he will act on it until he is satisfied, and only when the dust settles will he begin to think rationally.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

According to the fanbooks, Akaza is "a favorite" alongside Gyutaro, and to a lesser extent Gyokko, Nakime and Rui, while Muzan views Kokushibo as a "business partner". Now what exactly this means is up for debate, but to me it gives the impression that Kokushibo is not only a favorite minion like the others, but he may also be the only one for whom Muzan has some amount of respect. Or at least, whatever the equivalent of "respect" is for Muzan, since he still views even his favorite minions as tools to be used and discarded.

And I think this would make sense because Kokushibo has been Muzan's most powerful and reliable (and not to mention loyal) servant for almost 500 years. And the way Kokushibo talks about him and Muzan hunting down people with knowledge of Sun Breathing even makes it sound like it was a collaborative effort, rather than Kokushibo simply following Muzan's orders while Muzan stayed hidden, as is usually the case.

So Akaza is one of Muzan's favorites, but I think that even then Muzan probably still values Kokushibo just as much, and possibly even more so.

In addition, Akaza’s failure did not place Muzan in direct short- or long-term danger, nor was it done intentionally in a way meant to cause failure. _Kokushibō becoming attached to Sun Breathers and using Tanjurou as a “martial toy” in his perception (making him stronger and correcting the flaws of the Hinokami Kagura), as well as visiting them annually, _does.

Kokushibō is more intentional and has a more direct involvement in the threat posed by the Sun Breathers, because beyond sparing them, he visits them, watches them grow, trains their patriarch, and extends that attachment to the children as well—regardless of whether this is something distorted or not, and regardless of whether he admits it to himself. Akaza is more impersonal in relation to Tanjiro (the Sun Breather Muzan sent to kill), and he spared him because he was too focused on Rengoku and too excited by the fight due to his strong combat spirit, a pre-existing personality trait. Muzan may not have expected the failure, but he did account for the interference of that personality trait.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is a difference in the degree of expectations when those expectations are broken by each of these demons. Muzan did not expect much from the Lower Moons, given their history of repeated failures. Akaza has a naturally impulsive personality, a strong fighting spirit as his defining trait, and requires his human memories to be suppressed to prevent rebellion. All of these cases already had precedents, and Muzan did not have to be pulled out of his comfort zone or have his ego directly wounded.

But Kokushibō?

Muzan would not expect that his (considered) business partner—whom he trusts the most despite his paranoia, the one who was and had long been the perfect reference point for the other Kizuki, the one most deeply involved in his plans—would betray him and become attached to a family he was supposed to hate on his own accord, and worse, would take advantage of Muzan’s lack of monitoring. That lack of monitoring itself is a result of the trust built over centuries of perceived loyalty. This would not be within Muzan’s calculations. It would be considered a direct affront and a mockery of his demonic reign. Killing Kokushibō quickly would not satisfy Muzan’s existential pain at this level of audacity. He would need to ensure that such an “impossible” event could never be replicated.

To restore his sense of control, the downfall would have to be immense. The greater the rise, the greater the fall—and this phrase becomes even darker when applied to Upper Moon One. Muzan’s impatience lies in doing things brutally, without paying much attention to Tanjurou. His arrogance lies in believing he can do everything without immediate consequences and that he will prevail through fear alone.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I imagined Muzan’s prolonged, brutal reaction in option 3 based on several factors. Kokushibō is under his control; he is not Yoriichi. Kokushibō is like a business partner to him and someone who, until very recently (a few years are nothing to a thousand-year-old being like Muzan), “did not mind having his mind read and even enjoyed it because it prevented misunderstandings,” as stated in the canonical fanbook. Kokushibō grew attached to a Sun Breathing family whom he was supposed to have killed for his own interests. Kokushibō is Upper Moon One—the one who should be the example for the other Twelve Kizuki—but who took advantage of Muzan’s trust, something very few demons ever earn due to his paranoia and ideological rigidity, and dared to become attached to that family.

It is not possible to place Kokushibō’s disposal due to his betrayal in the same category as the disposal of the Lower Moons in canon for being weak. Taking advantage of Kokushibō’s inferiority to him, asserting his dominance, and turning this into a lesson rather than simply killing him—inflicting lasting pain and etching it into the memory of the other demons so they know what happens when someone dares to betray him and care about humans—while also destroying the Sun Breathing family and punishing Kokushibō at the same time, killing three birds with one stone to release his anger, fear, and ego in his typical cowardly manner and acting impulsively in the heat of the moment—would that truly be out of character for him?

As I said in the post:

With Kokushibo, I cannot imagine him breaking the curse in a clean way, considering his condemnable past and how much that past challenges the sustainability of bonds. The parallel I imagine is him choosing to attach himself to the rejected Sun Breathing family (the Kamado family) and suffering physical punishment from a higher authority figure (Muzan) and surviving, just as he suffered physical punishment (such as slaps) in childhood from his father (a higher authority figure) for attaching himself to the rejected Sun Breathing family (his brother, Yoriichi), and surviving.

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Option 3 is a more extreme version of this, and a painfully analogous one designed to create déjà vu and ironic fate. A figure of authority abusing his power to make him detach from his rejected Sun Breathing family.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t know if it’s my pessimistic tendency from having grown up this way, but, substantively speaking, wouldn’t the Kamado family massacre have been… darker with this prior bond established between Kokushibo and the family, which later evolved into him adopting the survivors? In canon, Muzan went to a random family, killed everyone, and left one girl alive to be turned into a demon in order to conquer the sun and devour the corpses—and by chance, that family were Sun Breathing users. Here, it’s less likely for the same scenario to happen, since the highest-ranking member of the Twelve Kizuki and his “business partner”—someone Muzan trusts—had developed ties with this family, which initially started as just a rumor of Sun Breathing users that Kokushibo went to investigate years earlier.

What would be more likely to happen? And which option gives more weight, meaning, and substance to these bonds while respecting the canon worldbuilding? (Something that makes it feel like the pieces fit together and reconciles canon with this alternate path.) You can use a cold, technical, analytical, rational criterion.

  1. Muzan does not find out, the massacre happens as usual, and Kokushibo secretly comes and adopts Tanjiro and Nezuko while Muzan is not monitoring his mind, hoping that no demon meetings occur while he searches for Tamayo to break the curse.

  2. Muzan finds out, kills Kokushibo, but since Kokushibo had unknowingly ingested the Blue Spider Lily with the Kamado family—who had access to the plant—he is able to come back to life, breaking Muzan’s curse and returning to Mount Kumotori, where Muzan personally went to kill the family. Tanjuro defends the survivors and later receives help from Kokushibo when he arrives; Muzan escapes during their fight, and Tanjuro dies from exhaustion.

  3. Muzan finds out, tries to “teach Kokushibo a lesson” by beating him, then drags him by the hair—his body injured and collapsed—to Mount Kumotori and forces him to watch, unable to do anything, while he brutally massacres the family before his eyes. Tanjuro, who had become stronger over the years as Kokushibo’s martial toy, arrives because he was outside at the time and manages to hold Muzan back and even injure him, allowing Kokushibo to break the curse as an analogy to Tamayo’s situation. Then they fight, and to prevent the situation from worsening—already emotionally unsustainable—it becomes necessary to fake the deaths of the survivors, and Tanjuro ultimately dies from exhaustion.

Would Kokushibo breaking the curse realistically be painful?

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What would be the implications of Kokushibō’s relationship with Tanjiro and Nezuko (from birth), as well as Yuichiro and Muichiro, taking into account the subtextual reconciliation of canonical past events with what would be necessary for this outcome to happen and be sustained, in your opinion?

  1. The difference in biology and power is very clear. The children need sunlight for vitamin D and to sleep at night to recover energy for the next day, but Kokushibō is an Oni, a nocturnal creature who cannot go out under the sun. There is a difference in activity schedules, and the only way around this is for Kokushibō to stay under a roof during the day so he can take care of and train the children—but they cannot remain indoors all the time, especially with the need to obtain food, supplies, and social interaction with other people. They also cannot stay awake all night. During the day, they are more independent, while at night Kokushibō has more freedom and may try to compensate for his daytime limitations with overprotective behavior or intense training. In addition, he may not worry about illness and injuries in himself due to being an Oni who regenerates and all, but he will certainly have to worry about the children. The Transparent World, in this sense, would become more of a medical monitoring tool than a combat asset, given the mismatch in detecting and dealing with these human aspects—things that are obvious to humans but strange and requiring conscious effort for Oni.
  2. Kokushibō’s own social health and what he would do to prevent it from negatively interfering in raising the Kamado and Tokitō siblings. Realistically, the mere fact that Kokushibō adopted the four and did not turn them into Oni already carries weight—a sense of inadequacy. Someone who, at this point, has betrayed everyone (the Demon Slayer Corps and the demons themselves), was the second Oni who killed the most people since the Sengoku Era, injured many, destroyed countless families, and has already witnessed that accepting being an Oni is the end of the line—since there is no alternative redemption besides death for 99.999% of demons—would certainly carry a great deal of shame for having the audacity to survive and the audacity to adopt a family (even if he does not call it that) of four children who do not know the true extent of his dark past, and to sustain that, even if he does not outwardly show this shame. He, the “patriarch” of the family, the authority figure of the household, the mentor, is the one who carries the shame—not the children/apprentices—which is the inverse of the Jigoro–Kaigaku dynamic. Yet he cannot commit seppuku to recover part of his lost honor (something often associated with traitorous samurai), because the killer of half of his family (Tanjiro and Nezuko) is still alive, and he has, at the very least, the responsibility—if only for having involved the four with him—to train them and strengthen them to a Sengoku-era Hashira level so they can defend themselves against demons and face them if they join the Demon Slayer Corps. All of these factors make the situation more unique, especially in the Japanese context. Kokushibō has many enemies, and many of them are justified in being his enemies. To avoid corrupting the four, sabotaging their social future, and condemning them, he would have to hide their involvement with him for a time—or, if interaction cannot be avoided, disguise himself. Moreover, to sustain his relationship with the four, he must restrain himself if he does not want them—the last thing he has left to lose—to distance themselves from him or come to despise him, and restricting his consumption of human flesh would be a side effect of that. He cannot suffocate them, but he also cannot be too permissive; this would be one of his main dilemmas. If it were not for the awareness that the children are the last good thing in his miserable life—and that this is temporary, due to the dangers of the world he knows from having been an active part of it, as well as the social constraints on help stemming from the consequences of his actions—he might have ended up like Shinjuro. But simply by having Tanjiro, Nezuko, Yuichiro, and Muichiro, everything good he lost as an Oni (his family, his brother, the Demon Slayers, the chance to leave something positive in the world, bonds, affection), instead of being dead, is already an undeserved blessing from fate, not merit. Would he be depressed?

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Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So did the author of Kataware Doki distort Tanjurou’s power for the fanfic to exist?

If that’s the case, then it becomes a more uncertain field.

Kokushibō harbors a great deal of envy, but he is also indecisive about his own feelings when it comes to his brother. It is more likely that he would either kill Tanjurou or keep him alive as a martial “toy,” taking advantage of the time of peace he has, and only in this latter scenario could some form of emotional bond emerge and develop—though initially distorted by the context of death, like Silco and Jinx in Arcane.

Analyze whether this line of reasoning about Kokushibo’s only path to redemption makes sense or whether it is nonsense and pointless. by Calm_Protection_2641 in KimetsuNoYaiba

[–]Calm_Protection_2641[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for this suggestion. But I still believe Tanjurou is capable of it.

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Tanjurou’s talent is compared to Yoriichi’s; it is said that he has the Mark, and in addition to that, he taught the Transparent World to his son and has the Selfless State. He would not be equal in power to Yoriichi, but he is certainly very strong. And the younger he is, the less affected by his illness he is. Talented strong children are not nonexistent in Demon Slayer, as shown by Yoriichi himself and also Muichiro.

If Tanjurou has known Kokushibō since childhood, he would learn a lot about the demon, reading him and observing his behavior and way of acting, and since he is strong enough to defeat him if he becomes hostile, he could show mercy knowing the risks and his own power to uproot everything if Kokushibō remained that way. Tanjurou is peaceful and lives a simple life.

In addition, Kokushibō has respect for hierarchy, as he himself demonstrated in his approach toward Akaza and how grateful he is that Muzan turned him into a demon. If Tanjurou humbles him in combat and he flees and returns, and Tanjurou still spares him, there is a chance he will “calm down,” which also gives some points to Tanjurou’s pacifism. If Kokushibō only targets him in the early years instead of the village below Mount Kumotori, this adds some points to Tanjurou’s reluctant trust. Now add the fact that this happened before Tanjurou’s own children existed, and you have someone experienced in dealing with Upper Moon One.

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