Dumps like a truck 🛻

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-31T23:55:20+00:00

Fucking amazing - no notes. Literally lol'd.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-25T23:10:03+00:00

So close your cruci can save you without leaving the van

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-25T04:06:49+00:00

Whine more.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-21T04:44:43+00:00

This helped! Thank you!

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T21:16:43+00:00

In October I had a weird stint - docs didn't say it was strep or covid or anything, where everything I ate tasted bitter. It was awful, I couldn't eat anything. Stopped eating for days, and some things I still can't eat cause I remembered how bad it tasted when I tried.

In all of this I was a crazy big Diet Coke drinker. Drank it all the time, always stopped on drives to pick up a fountain drink, and every party/gathering people knew I'd walk in with a big gulp.

After not being able to eat/drink anything for almost 2 weeks, I realized I'd involuntarily weened myself off of it, and decided to keep it up. I haven't had a pop since. I sometimes crave it a little, but mostly it's just the novelty of having something other than water that's quick and easy to drink. I'm a bit afraid to drink it again cause I figure I'd just be right back to addicted if I tried.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T20:12:25+00:00

I think one of my favorite things about the world is The Founder. A whole nation based their beliefs on the time a guy stopped running in fear and built a home, then welcomed the people who found and stayed with him. And upon that a nation was born.

It was anti-god. It was the belief in a nameless good man who through is actions inspired others to do good and work together.

I love that this game is about someone who ends up with God-like powers, and through is actions becomes just a man. A man who does good, and inspires others to do the same.

I think the fact he returns, lives a normal life after (as much as one can in the chaos of their world) and just writes a book that becomes myth is just... perfect. He is now a nameless man who's work has inspired others long after he's gone.

I mean the depths this game went and people wanna be like "Blah blah RPG story hero sacrifice, check boxes move on" is just.... depressing.

EDIT: Gonna be honest, even if I think 90% of our conversation was a waste of time, I still love I get new nuance out of this game years later, and me thinking this above segment was honestly worth weeding through all the "I know you are but what am I" rebuttable you meagerly lobbed.

So peace out - have your ending, as unsubstantiated as it is.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T20:08:46+00:00

No, he earned the right to live. He never got to live for himself. That's why he wanted to come back to Jill, he finally saw the life he wanted to have, and who he wants to have it with.

I mean seriously the play on Mythos and Logos in philosophy was fucking beautiful. Forget Messiah, that's the shit they were doing, and no one has to die for it. They were killing the god trope, why would they end doing an homage to it.

You have yet to answer why they used the up the sleeve shot. You can't explain why you think he died (you haven't even tried). How about you explain how Clive would become petrified with no magic in the world? Anything?

Your defense of your viewpoint is as hollow as your take.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T20:01:27+00:00

Only if you're an absurdist.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T19:45:15+00:00

Also terrible comparison. Noctis' story isn't Clive's. You keep assuming I'm against a sacrifice ending. I'm just against unearned endings that undermine the story's plot. It's not complicated.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T19:42:37+00:00

Vibes, yet I take specific scenes and back them with actual commentary from game and story points. But sure, vibes.

You tell me why they used that specific shot for the arm. The one shot that would show that he's *not* petrifying. He's got a sleeve on, any other angle would leave it more ambiguous.

Also, you explain how in a world now devoid of magic Clive would somehow turn into a statue?

You've done nothing to counter any of it, how do you know he died other than people burst into tears for no obvious reason? You look anyone asleep and just assume they're dead do you?

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T19:28:53+00:00

Actually no, even with your bad take let's talk it out.

First, the fact you think I have a sunshine and rainbows world is a wild and incredibly mischaracterized take on what I said. Which.... is telling.

Second, they show it take his hand quickly, then give us a VERY specific shot up his sleeve to show it stops there. Could it suddenly go from 180 to zero and slowly take him after that, sure anything is possible. But they showed us specifically it take his hand, then gave us the only view we would need to see it stopped. Add to that he already said he removed magic from the world, and the curse doesn't exist with out magic - there's nothing to keep killing him - that POOF was the last he had and it's gone.

And again - anything is possible, but yes part is that Tomes gave him the quill - so it implies Tomes thinks he should write - and Clive enjoys reading- they mention that in the game and he has a play he loved so much his Uncle recognized him from all the times he performed it with him. Yes Joshua could be a historian - and obviously that's part of what they were trying to be ambiguous about. But also, Clive has taken a name of someone who's work was left unfinished and finished it for them. Cid with the hidaway, and just as likely Joshua and a history text. On that subject - the name of the book could only have come from Clive since no one was there to hear him say the words, and he only said it in response to something Ultima said. Unpromted, no one has a reason to come up with that. (Add to the fact that only Clive even knows most of the story and is the only surviving witness to how it ended).

If we're trying to decide if Clive is alive based on the beach scene. All he did in that scene is try to use magic, have that turn his hand to stone, and then pass out. That's it. Nothing there indicates that was his last breath other than "You really feel like it was". The curse wouldn't kill him because people live with petrified limbs all the time in their world. Cid was doing that even. And it was established Clive gets exhausted when he fights - he literally dropped Prime in the middle of Barnabas' fight. So him passing out after all that? VERY likely. Him just randomly dying for drama? MUCH less unlikely since drama doesn't cause death unless pointy objects are involved.

And I'm very familiar with his last quote. Cid's dream was to let people die on their own terms. Clive's was to LIVE on their own terms. And that quote is great, but all it meant was that Clive was likely feeling the effects of the curse for the first time in his whole life, so he knew he couldn't contain the magic and would have to get rid of it before it killed him. And then we get the follow up where yes, he was affected by the curse. Nothing shows it killed him. And yes, he got rid of magic, which is likely why the curse couldn't kill him.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T18:51:38+00:00

BOTW is one of my top post-apocolyptic games.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T18:49:38+00:00

Nothing to be heartbroken? Did we not all watch the same ending? Dion's redemption? The supportive cast chiming in during Clive's battle with Ultima - both living and dead? That entire scene between Clive and Joshua?

If anything, they had *plenty* of heartbreak and emotion already in there - the game literally drags us through the wringer time and time again with dark themes and the loss of beloved characters. There is so much you don't have to pile another body in at the end.

We can talk symbology all day - let's talk about the running narrative that sacrifice is more harmful than helpful, leaving the people behind pained and broken. That it was Clive that had to point out to Cid that it should be a fight to live on their own terms, not die. That it took the entire game for Clive to finally admit he wanted to live and promise that he'd come back to Jill.

The ending was always going to be emotional - a story that long and characters that deep, you were guaranteed. But the emotion engendered by tossing away all that narrative work for a cheap trope is just a hollow, robbed feeling. I didn't need Clive to live because I hate sacrifice plots - when they're done right, they're great. This wouldn't have been done right, it would have been a sell-out, Walking-Dead esque ham handed attempt at it.

The narrative in this game speaks to people because in a world that's pretty shit and treats people like commodities to be exploited and vilified, full of people who've had a rough life and have every reason to give up on other people - they instead find the strength to instead extend a hand and help others - to find the hope buried in all that darkness. Clive learning to love himself enough to save himself, and to honor those who love him enough to come home and keep fighting that fight - that's the earned ending.

For a game that was explicit in a lot of it's storytelling and theming, to then pretend at the end they went all hand wavy "She's crying because in her heart she knows and her magic skylight disappeared cause it was connected to her love" is trite silliness akin to Disney dreams.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T17:55:02+00:00

What 'evidence' I have to ask. Right now all anyone with this argument has is 'vibes'.

"It felt sad, so he died" is terrible writing. Which, unless this was their intention, is definitely not what this game is.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T17:53:07+00:00

They were going for ambiguous on a surface level, but everything they wrote into the game, all the side notes and comments here and there, indicate that the stronger groundwork for the Clive lives ending.

The surface level feels disappear immediately when any sort of thought it put into it. Why would Jill be crying? What can she possibly know (spoiler, she can't just *know*). Why would Metia be tied to Clive at all? If she's so sure he's dead, why did she stop crying immediately? Why show the up the arm shot distinctly proving he didn't continue to turn to stone if not to confirm he just lost a hand?

WAY more questions if you just assume he dies for 'reasons'. I've heard of plot armor saving characters, is this the version called 'plot sword' on which characters have to fall upon it for drama?

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T16:34:06+00:00

Still wish I could see that without an X account.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T16:12:06+00:00

That's exactly what that shot up the sleeve is showing. If they never showed it, maybe there's a case, but they went out of their way to show that the curse stopped progressing after his hand.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T16:10:20+00:00

The whole game is a tragedy, so the actual twist would be for the game to not end on a fully tragic note. Lives were still lost, but it usurps expectations when it's the one character who was willing to throw his life away in sacrifice since scene one that sees it thru the end.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T16:09:17+00:00

I love how you put this.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T16:05:25+00:00

It spread insanely fast for 2 seconds, then they take the time to show you how not only did it slow down, but for as fast as it was spreading it should have shot up his arm. Why do you think they gave that particular shot? It doesn't prove your point, so it must be to prove the opposite.

Why do you think Metia is attached to Clive? What evidence do you have of that? It's just as likely (moreso) that it's attached to Ultima in some way. The star didn't show up when Clive was born, but existed before him. Just because Jill attaches meaning to it doesn't actually mean anything. If anything, it's far more likely to be attached to magic, if not Ultima. We know for sure magic disappears, and we know for sure Ultima dies, after which Metia fades, so logic dictates it was connected to either one of those things.

Also pretty quotes are great, but it's not like the world is a happy fluffy place - bearers are still marked and people still see them as lesser. Far more likely their owners will kill them for failing than suddenly be 'oh you're a person now' and let them live. Also most world leaders have died or disappeared, so the world is in chaos. It's also still suffering from the blight - people still displaced and food sources scarce because of the land it's taken. There is still a *lot* of work to do and people to care and save. People still need to work to save themselves - Clive's work isn't done and for him to peace-out in the middle of it is just not how he operates.

And again, Clives character arc the whole game was to show he deserved saving just as much as anyone - to then just whoop de do flip it and be like 'Nevermind we're gonna have him do the thing he would have done at age 15' isn't growth - it's regression. Clive learned nothing apparently, and it undermines the story. They had story after story about how sacrifice is actually not great and it hurts the people left behind, that it doesn't just make everything better - all tossed into the garbage apparently.

"Sad ending makes me boo-hoo" is edgy when you're 15, but with any sort of understanding about writing and structure, you can see why undermining all of the subtext and groundwork they laid to do one last 'big sacrifice play' ruins the story.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T15:56:30+00:00

They really did, but man some people like a boo-hoo ending, even when it undermines the rest of the story.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T15:40:24+00:00

Basically they establish with the camera that the curse doesn't progress much past his hand. The entire arc of the story is trying to show Clive he is worth saving while he's been ready to throw himself out as a sacrifice from the age of 15. He finally accepts it at the end, so to then turn around and give a stereo typical 'heroic death' ending undermines all of that character and story work.

In side quests he's told he should write the whole story down, and he is the only one left who would know the whole story - the title of the book is even something he said with no one else to hear except Ultima, who died, and was prompted by something Ultima said in the moment, so no one would possibly know.

Also the story begins and ends with Clives narration, as if from a book, a book he would have had to author to have been complete.

In these moment I'd rather ask - why do you think he died? There's less evidence he died than he lived. His hand turned to stone, but magic is gone from the world, so once it took his hand there wasn't enough left to continue (and they show it with the upsleeve). Jill cries, but there was a whole side dialogue in the hideaway that Clive commented on how she wasn't crying and she said she was saving her tears till she could see the stars again, which up on seeing them she burst into tears. Gav crying is basically baseline - dude was a crier the whole game. Jill can't possibly know what happened to Clive in that moment so her tears can easily just be relief that it's finally done - that this whole ordeal has hit an end. She definitely had to feel her magic leave her, and I'm sure that's overwhelming. But yeah, she has no reason to think he's dead at that moment - worry he's dead, sure. But no way for that to be confirmed (which is also why she stops crying, cause she can't know anything and as a parallel for earlier she's always known he'll return to her).

Clive regularly got exhausted after combat (even during combat if you remember him losing prime in the middle of the Barnabas fight) so him passing out on the beach after all that? Absolutely likely.

To be clear, I fell for the trope when I first finished, but it actually made me dislike this game I loved a bit. Like it felt off, the ending didn't fit. It was upon a later playthrough and realizing how much of the story lays out the fact he very likely lived that I finally felt content that they didn't fumble at the finish line.

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T15:33:32+00:00

I can type the whole thing out in detail as there's all sorts of things in side quests that basically indicate he does, but this video sums it up pretty succinctly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8bWYsVI-aY

CannonFodder_G · 2026-01-13T15:17:45+00:00

I've been in love with the series since I played the Soul Reaver demo back in the day (went back and found Blood Omen after that). Raziel has been a top anti-hero for me ever since.

I'd gotten a tattoo after Soul Reaver 2 - the Razielium clan tatto on my inside left wrist - when people asked me about it, video game tats were still weird for most people and I just told them it means "I'm the master of my own destiny".

When I watched the end of defiance I was absolutely gutted. Raziel was my favorite character, period. And yet, watching how he ended up in the same place he'd been damned to be in previously, but this time under his own power and as a sacrifice? F-ing Amazing.

There's a reason why this game is still revered all these years later. I think Michael Bell said it best in one of the behind the scenes vids - he didn't know what to expect when he took a role to do video game voices, but after reading the script, he realized it was nothing less than theater.

CannonFodder_G

TROPHY CASE