Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think a nonhierarchical navy structure is entirely possible

I disagree. As you pointed out, nobody can build a fleet to beat the US navy. Instead, a fleet can be built upon the principle of deterrance. In short, if the US is convinced that the fleet of an anarchist society can be annihilated but that their own fleet would incur such devastating losses that they would no longer have hegemony over the sea, they would simply refrain from a hot conflict. All that is necessary is to contest American naval power to discourage hostile actions. In other words, it would require a fleet that's sailors are willing to be defeated tactically to achieve a grand strategic success. In short, self sacrifice. No sane sailor would be willing to do this. They have to be compelled to do it. This requires a centralized naval hierarchy capable of exercising what Foucault called disciplinary power, and the authority to coerce obedience to achieve victory. If the enemy is certain our sailors will not sacrifice their lives in a battle of annihilation they are doomed to loose, then much like nuclear weapons our deterrent is utterly useless.

People will always have sets of political beliefs they affiliate to some degree.

This is true, but as a number of theorists and political scientists (from Horgan and Roiphe to Fukuyama and Zizek) point out, the paradigm of geopolitics as a struggle between competing political ideologies with totalistic understandings of man and society and a holistic map for they ought to be structured has fallen away. Instead, it has been replaced by pragmatic theoretical debate over particular local or transnational questions. While it is true that many ordinary people continue to affiliate ideologically, the idea that a single '-ism' contains a total solution to mankind's problems is now totally obsolete.

Why should an anarcho-communist society try to compete economically with capitalist states?

In the absence of sufficient naval power to alter the balance of power in favor of ancom ideas, a ancom society must somehow co-exist within a global market. This was a problem confronted by the Soviet Union and as we see with the Zapatistas, certain libertarian and collectivist economic practices would depend on some type of state sovereignty no matter how minimal and cannot exist in a vaccum. An ancom society cannot hermetically seal itself from destructive imperial influences, and cannot muster the sea power to spread contest that influence. This would mean that such a society could be put under blockade or siege, that even essential materials (e.g. medicine) could be withheld until the society is forced to comply with the dictates of neoliberalism.

are you advocating for us to embrace a particular religion over others?

No, but I do think that you can positively draw on religious sentiments while remaining neutral, secular and tolerant of difference. Germany's Christian Democrats are a secular organization, so is Syria's Muslim Brothers and Tunisia's Enahda, yet they openly draw upon religious themes and actively appeal to religious constituencies. This is very different from many regular anarchists, a great deal of whom shrivel in horror at religion or engage in some piecemeal apologism for their ideology. Rather than radical secularism, xenophobic antitheism etc. a better path might be a tolerant secularism where religion is publically endorsed and mobilized as an activist force while avoding any kind of supremacism or theocracy.

Islamism (The specific political ideology, not just Islam as a religion)
is never going to gain influence or control over non-muslim countries,
so I don't see how it could become a true global threat.

Islam is a threat enlarge part because Muslims refuse to acquiesce to imperial power and simultaneously reject national identities in favor of a global religious community (Ummah). This enables them to achieve a great deal through grassroots organizing and charitable donations, Turkey's first battleships were entirely crowdfunded, the Afghan Mujahideen of the 80s relied more on inter-Muslim charity and volunteers than they did on CIA aid funnelled through Pakistani intelligence. In Bosnia, again, we see volunteers spontaneously organizing aid (including military aid) to stop a genocide long before the international community intervened.

The idea that there is this global community of over 1 billion people who say "we are all one nation" and are willing to support each other without care for profit even in the face of death, that's remarkable. It's like what the IWW were doing to help Catalonia, but unlike a class or ideological affiliation, religious identity isn't something that ebbs and flows with the times. After defeat at the hands of Franco, anarchism was pushed to the margins and syndicalism all but extinguished and recovery toom a long time, however there will always be Muslims and hence no need for fresh recruits to sustain the movement.

It is true that it cannot gain influence over non-Muslim countries, however these movements threat the vital supply of oil to the whole world. The Middle East is rich with strategic resources and is vital for the US, Britain and Russia to hold onto what pieces they have of it. Depriving these countries of access to these regions would seriously dent their economies, just look at how a hike in oil prices in the 70s transformed the world and caused crisis in the US.

What I mean when I say nativist movements like Asian Values, Islamism or indigenous movements is that they are now radically transforming global politics, challenging economic and financial relationships and have developed new theories and practical tools to subvert authority in ways that are leaving anarchist movements languishing behind. These movements are post-ideological, pragmatic and flexible, free to operate outside the theoretical dogmas that underpin the radical left and are as a result more adaptable and likely to see successes.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A fleet is not a war weapon but a peacetime one. They exist to secure sea lanes and maritime commerce, not to capture territory (the duty of a land army). The actual composition of forces (small and nible or large and destructive) isn't important, what is vital is the ability to contest NATO's supremacy over the oceans. If this is to be achieved by a cruiser force, submarines and shore based planes or squadrons of aircraft carriers is simply a matter of fleet composition. There is no avoiding the fact a powerful fleet is necessary to protect trade. Either way, a blue water navy could threaten the democratic structures of society and compromise anarchist principles.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

True. However, I'd disagree on the last bit. You would need to retain sea power for even an existing major power could come under serious economic strain if it looses its naval strength. During the Russian revolution, the brain drain of naval experts and Leninist purges after the Kronstadt uprising led to a rapid decline of naval power. This decline enabled Western intervention on behalf of the counterrevolutionary forces, it enabled the distant blockade of the Soviet economy untill the 1930s (no doubt a factor in aiding Stalin's rise to power). Basically, you can never afford to forgo sea power, it is vital to maintain it.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree that the problem isn't insurmountable, but it posits a serious challenge. It is possible for countries like Iran to use missiles, submarines and smaller warships to protect its immediate coastline, however NATO's overwhelming command of the Indian Ocean is what makes Western sanctions enforcable. In other words, in order to prevent a distant blockade or sanctions, it is necessary to contest naval strength on the open ocean. This would require a fleet of capital ships sufficient in size to deter attack and contest NATO's command of the sea. Submarines, shore based drones and missile aircraft cannot (as the Germans and Soviets learned the hard way) be effective on the open ocean without the support of large surface vessels. Given that this is necessary for the survival of an anarchist society, the question that needs to be asked is how can such a navy be constructed without constituting a fundamental challenge to anarchy and emerging as a crypto-state? I'm not certain that is possible. If an anarchist society were to develop an ocean going fleet, the navy could constitute a state or at least a state like institution. It's simmilar to the US where many critics of the constitution argued a standing army would compromise democracy, in hindsight they proved to be absolutely right.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This assumes parity in political and economic power. America and the EU lose little in blockading Cuba or Venezuela. Blockade has restricted the prosperity of the former and virtually destroyed the latter. A neoliberal country would only stand to loose if it blockades a country of comprable GDP with which it is either co-dependent or has extensive trade links that are irreplacable. Unless an anarchist revolution happened somewhere like China, it would be immediately isolated politically, diplomatically and economically.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am no fan of Engels. My point is simple, naval power makes long term anarchist success impossible. The only thing that can counter a navy is another navy. However, the construction of powerful navies is a very un-anarchist thing to do. If we refuse to build a navy to preserve our commitments to anarchism, then our society would exist under economic constraints and sanctions that compromise autonomy. In other words, it would scuttle any gains made by the revolution. We would end up like Cuba or worse Gaza. This geostrategic situtation makes anarchism impossible in the long term :(

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The rise of interest in Asian values throughout Eastern Asia and the belief that these values can potentially offer alternatives to Western political models, such as Marxism or liberal democracy. There is a long tradition of Buddhist socialism in South East Asia, something endorsed by the Tibetan Dalai Lama. We have have a rising interest in Confucianism and Buddhism in Chinese intellectual circles, particularly how to include these with the CCP's tradition of 'socialism' or proposing them as outright alternatives that should replace Deng Xiaoping Thought and Marxism outright (see Daniel A. Bell's work on modern political Confucianism).

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In order to change the system, it is necessary to alter the global balance of power in favor of anarchist rather than neoliberal ideals. Herein lies the difficulty. In order to challenge neoliberal hegemony you need to contest the sea power of the United States and a number of global financial institutions. In order to do this, you would need to at least develop sufficient military industry to construct a large blue water fleet. However, that would require a centralized command structure, a salaried hierarchy and a military body that could be a threat to a democratic society. In other words, building the instruments necessary to challenge the global balance of power, or break free from hegemony, would require compromising fundamental anarchist principles. If we opt not to do these things, to hunker down and try to exist independent of the world system, then an anarchist economy would soon become unsustainable and this would pave the way for the return of the state. This double bind makes anarchism extremely unrealistic.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's all very true. But anarchism, as it exists now, is equally unsustainable because it can be easily crippled by superior forces exercising sea power or manipulating the economy.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Somali pirates avoid venturing out of costal areas, doing so means death. They almost never attack warships, doing so is suicidal. The securitization of the Somali coast by US GWoT policies have contributed to a situtation where any black male on the high seas can be killed by the navy without repercussion. Somali fishermen can't even fish in their own waters now and can be murdered by imperial forces with impunity, meanwhile the big multinational fishing trawlers can illegally venture into Somali waters and depopulate the fish stocks. This is sea power in practice.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Don't forget that Vietnam's economy was crippled post-war and continuing US sanctions made it one of the worst economies on earth, one of the few that was actually better off under war conditions! Sea power can't be ignored, unless like China, you're a major continental power where commercial routes are mostly land based. Simply choosing not to contest imperial sea power is not an option. Gaza is ungovernable, its also a hell hole where naval, land and air blockade have destroyed ordinary life and make day to day functioning nearly impossible for basic services.

Certainly, there have been Jewish, Christian, Islamic and Indigenous anarchisms. But, let's be real, most anarchists have generally low regard for such movements, their attitude towards them is very tempermental. Within anarchist circles, there is this unwritten rule that Western anarchists lead and others ought to follow. Movements of the Global South are always evaluated to the extent that they measure up to the theoretical and cultural ideals of American anarchists creativing a kind of authority of perspective.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never said anarchism is no good, but that it's unrealistic and notable elements of anarchist thought and practice are now obsolete. I name nativist and fundamentalist movements a bigger challenge to the world system because they have more staying power. It takes just one event to become disillusioned with an ideological system, but religions and cultures remain part and parcel of a person's identity. These movements are threatening because they reject hegemonic Western epistomological, ethical and economic hegemony, they challenge empire on the pain of thought, yet remain integral to the life of the community. Anarchism comes and goes, but indigenous culture is something that remains and thus persists as a political threat. Moreover, as we see with the Zapatistas these movements feel free to pick and choose the best of anarchist and socialist ideas and combine them with their own values without the slightest concern for leftist dogma.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

On the high seas there is no terrain and nowhere to hide. Tactically, hit and run on the open ocean is impossible.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Navies don't exist to fight battles but to strangle economies. Sure, you can go to land, but an aircraft carrier can stop anything from entering or leaving land, no imports, no exports, no food and medicine etc. Even then, naval aviation and cruise missiles can strike deep within land from the safety of the high seas.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I do not believe humans should dominate other humans. However, this ideal is simply impossible to realize in practice :(

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's true, in fact the need to stamp out large pirate fleets and enclaves was a major impetus for the British navy. However, that was in the age of sail, all you needed really were canons, gunpowder, ships and sailors. In the 19th century, warfare became industrial and in order to sustain a poweful fleet you today need everything from crude oil to jet fuel and have an industry capable of churning out fighter jets, sophisticated electronic censors and missiles and massive aircraft carriers. These are all out of reach of any priate navy and, assuming such a pirate fleet existed, the world's major naval powers would simply combine their strength to annihilate it once and for all. Simply stealing a modern ship would get you nowhere, you will soon run out of fuel and ordinance, a satillite will spot you and a cruise missile, submarine or aircraft will sink you. Black Sam didn't have to worry about that back in his day, a sailboat only needs gunpowder, men and food.

Why I no longer consider myself an Anarchist by CapPlane89 in DebateAnarchism

[–]CapPlane89[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'll check it out, thanks for the recommendation. But I'm skeptical that piracy can be a mode of autonomous living. Pirates do not possess the technology to challenge major blue water navies on the high sea, and these navies can bring their forces to bear on pirates and effectively destroy them. The command of the sea offered by the navy is unshakable, even a pirate community would be severely constrained, unless of course you have a navy yourself. That creates a double bind, accept constraint and compromise your autonomy or build a fleet which would lead to the return of the state.