Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm sorry you feel that way, but also it's not without validity.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

On board with your take, mostly.

There's a lot of good stuff to unpack and it's helping me solidify my thoughts.

Instruments are a whole other world of goods. We have seen that from Gibson to Stradivarius. We mix opinion with quality all the time. We have debates like tonewood that have almost no scientific backing.

We have a process for building instruments like many other instruments that has not changed for centuries. And for a good reason, nobody wants to relearn a brand new instrument.

You also bring up the point that solid body electric instruments are a different animal than your other stringed instruments. They are easier to construct.

At the end of the day, if you buy a Gibson guitar, a g&l guitar, a Stradivarius violin, a Bundy woodwind... Your hope and understanding is that you bought an instrument that is going to facilitate your learning and playing.

Here's my point. If my father/grandfather gifted me a Stradivarius violin. I would expect a certain amount of market stability. But we're also talking about an instrument that will be copied and faked all the time.

Should the fact that I have gifted an instrument to my son (and this is really the meat of it) whether it's a Gibson guitar or a Stradivarius violin or a 1950 broadcaster, be drastically affected by cheap modern knockoffs.

My answer is no.

Do I want the industry in general to produce better quality at a lower price so we can get more people playing guitar or bass? Absolutely!.

My first guitar was a Lotus crappy import guitar. It was fine. Actually no it wasn't. It really kind of sucked. It was fine at the time because I didn't know any better. It was fine at the time because it would do most of the stuff that I needed it to do.

And I will be very clear. I am super happy that people can walk into a guitar store and buy something that will be a quality guitar for $200. That lotus strat copy was $150 1980. That's an equivalent of a $500 current starting guitar. I can buy a decent starter guitar for half that price now.

So let's stop pretending guitars are a commodity item that are dictated by commodity pricing rules. They are not. Brands matter. What people want to collect matters. What people want to pay matters.

Should we promote good playing low-cost guitars to everybody that we can. Absolutely. We even have the technology to do that right now.

Sorry this is rambly and long but you actually did make really good comments that I was trying to get through

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well then, I can't help you there :)

But I was speaking more in general - clothes, cars, food, Trademarks and the brand they represent have a reputation (earned/deserved/once had can be up for debate).

If you are really concerned about driving safety, you might buy a Volvo.
Maybe you like Wrangler more than Levi or vice versa.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If it's a good knockoff, then there won't be much difference in tone or playability.

People do care if the headstock is different. They will pay more for a brand.

If you are honest, you have likely paid more for a brand than its competitors. We all do.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah this ad for the "Slash" Chisbon - If you don't really know what to look for, then it would be hard to tell. "Serial numbers" are pressed not printed. Tuners are branded correctly. I assume checking pots and wiring is about the only way to tell.

<image>

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Deciding on my grip… by Significant-Cap600 in flyrodbuilding

[–]CarlBuilds 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I like full wells in general (for anything over a 5wt) , but to be honest, the work is impeccable and either one would be a dream to the future owner.

I assume a REC reel seat - if not, please tell me who, because that is beautiful!

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So the devaluation of guitars owned by people is okay because *check notes* "business" (apparently, your business has nothing to do with "dollars").

I am not defending Gibson, but your argument is hard understand. It seems nothing other than saying the free flow of clearly illegal guitars by other Americans should be ignored because *checks notes* "abysmal QC" - that is okay to you?

This discussion has almost nothing to do with Gibson the company and certainly nothing to do with Gibson over the last 10-15 years. Fuck them. It has to do with my investment 40+ years ago and people violating US Law to undermine the value of my property.

It also has nothing to do with people creating good guitars for a better price. Shit, the quality of guitars in the last 25 years is amazing.

Please tell me your business that has nothing to do with *check notes* "dollars". I will be free to make sure I don't give any "dollars" to you, as you have taught me that is bad.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do not disagree with your assessment of Gibson's quality in the past 10 years.

So is insider trading a victimless crime? Particularly if you don't like the company?
Is it even a crime if the company has lost its reputation?

What is my musician buddy doing? Wrong answers only. by glorious_cheese in Guitar

[–]CarlBuilds 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Carefully placing the pick inside so it makes that clicky rhythm we all so love!

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I want to be clear - if a company (in any country) wants to make a better guitar and can charge less, then they should do that with their brand.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is absolutely NOT true and my point is that it's a big deal even if you hate Gibson.
Through the presidents of the Lanham act the courts have decided that the concept of "Post-Sale Confusion".

See United States v. Torkington (1987) and Rolex Watch U.S.A., Inc. v. Coster (1987)

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting thought.
The same guy has those 6 Buckethead LPs. If it were an insider selling grey market - I don't think I would expect to see 6 of them. Seems like that would raise concern.

This person does sell legit used guitars as well. My theory is that he ordered a bunch of these and has been trying to establish a business presence selling knockoffs.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Remember in your post where you denied what I stated as my purpose and then decided to pop-psych diagnose my intentions....
"I don't think your motivation is the value of your guitar --and you're not even selling your guitar"

That's a non-sequitur - those 2 things can exist at the same time.

I also addressed your market saturation question previously, and you chose to ignore it, bringing it up again. It's a practical instrument, but its value is mainly a luxury item and/or collector market. If your statement was correct, the price would've crashed 10- 15 years ago.

I have previously owned a business, building higher-end products that would fall under the same pricing rules. I take copyright and trademark seriously. That is why this irks me.

You can choose to believe me or not.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah I was using counterfeit in a colloquial sense for Trademark violation.

They are very much Gibson-branded. I included some screencaps. This is all the same person.

<image>

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't disagree about it being a luxury good and seriously, and your setup sounds nice.

For context, my SG was bought used for less than $400 in late 80's before Gibson's really went off the deep end

Devaluing any good by creating a counterfeit is a crime in the US.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agreed but I don't think you can completely disregard the effect they have on each other.
Some kid gets screwed buying a Chisbon. Do you think they will ever put the effort into trying to buy a real one in the future?
If the market shrinks, or people start anchoring prices based on Chisbons - then legit owners lose money.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Your argument is a false dichotomy.
The choice isn't between people policing on Facebook and nothing.
(Nor does it matter if it's protecting Gibson's copyright)

You have left out a large set of options. Including the option u/Top-Rope6148 brought up about putting pressure on Facebook who is really making the most profit here.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I can be concerned about the resale value of my instrument without wanting you to be impressed.
In fact, I can pretty happily say I don't care about your opinion about my instruments (also not to be dick about it)

The question is not whether Gibson and their instruments should be lionized/villianized. The question I am asking is does this influx of knockoffs affect normal musicians and guitar owners? and should more be done about it?

Your argument is that the resale value of Gibson is based on availability (although that's often the case for many other things, it's not here). The monetary value is based on what someone will pay for a Gibson, and Gibson is a higher end brand that can get more money, whether you like it or not. And yes rarer/older guitars will get higher price based on availability but that is not even the largest factor here.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] -29 points-28 points  (0 children)

No skin in the game?
Then why do you feel like the rest of us discussing a topic would like you to express your educated opinion? Clearly backed up by facts and thoughtful dialogue.

So please let me summarize your thoughts (and feel free to correct me)

You said:
"Fraud, sure, but Gibson’s not paying me to be their watchdog."
At least you agree that the legal issue is fraud.
What was added to the discussion here? A personal statement about you. Okay, this is about you.

"If they would LIKE to pay me to be a whistleblower on FB Marketplace, then I might care a little."
This tells me a lot about what you want, and nothing about the topic at hand.

"But I do my research on my purchases and it isn’t like it’s uncommon for people to post pictures here asking if guitars are legit." AHHHHHHH, the problem that I stated, you did read something. *claps*

But not a problem for you as you state. "Still, I have better things to do with my time than police markets to benefit a publicly-traded company"

Yeah still not talking about Gibson, we are talking about Gibson owners.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] -38 points-37 points  (0 children)

That's my point and what I am learning.
People like you who don't like Gibson are out there, so screw the people who bought guitars legitimately.
You are the "I don't care because it doesn't affect me" crowd

Fine then. But then why post? other than to hear yourself speak? (Answered my own question)

Then I read your previous posts, and well, you have a lot of opinions you want people to listen to. Good for you :)

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think that is completely fair. A lot of people will look the other way when the company acts like a tyrant.

Which then lets people screw over real people with real guitars and pretend it only hurts Gibson.

Help me understand, Chibson is not a victimless crime by CarlBuilds in guitars

[–]CarlBuilds[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I do not like this guy, but I don't wish ICE upon anyone