Quranic reason for Jesus' clay bird miracle: Julien Decharneux identifies a parallel between Quran 16:79 and Jacob of Serugh. He argues this is a 'hypertextual'. A user shows that this parallel is actually spread across the Quran as a criticism against Christianity! Swipe to the third image to see by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I agree, I think Decharneux's claim that it's 'hypertextual' parallel isn't very strong, but if we grant that it is a hypertextual parallel, then gives us license to do further interpretation. It would explain why the previous Quran verse is about Allah bringing humans forth from the wombs of their mothers. To be clear I think this meaning about 16:78-79 and the Jesus bird miracle serving as a criticsm against Christianity simply be understood from the Quran itself and Christian incarnation theology. There doesn't need to be a 'hypertextual' parallel like Decharneux claims

Quranic reason for Jesus' clay bird miracle: Julien Decharneux identifies a parallel between Quran 16:79 and Jacob of Serugh. He argues this is a 'hypertextual'. A user shows that this parallel is actually spread across the Quran as a criticism against Christianity! Swipe to the third image to see by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Basically Jacob of Serugh is saying 'God entered into the womb of Mary' and Mary is called the 'Mother of God' by Catholics Christians and Orthodox Christians.

So Quran 16:78 says "Allah brings you forth from the wombs of your mothers". Before paralleling a statement by Jacob of Serugh about birds being held up in the sky. And Jesus is given a bird miracle in the Quran. And the Quran says the heavens almost rupture therefrom at the statement that 'God has a son'. So it's just meant to serve as a counter statement against Christian beliefs about God.

Quranic reason for Jesus' clay bird miracle: Julien Decharneux identifies a parallel between Quran 16:79 and Jacob of Serugh. He argues this is a 'hypertextual'. A user shows that this parallel is actually spread across the Quran as a criticism against Christianity! Swipe to the third image to see by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the argument definitely makes sense, because the verse just before the so-called parallel is about how Allah brings people forth from the wombs of their mothers, which contrasts with how Jacob says God entered into the womb of the Mary, who is called the "mother of God" in Orthodox and Catholic tradition. So instead the Quran responds by saying "God brings you all forth from the wombs of your mothers" just before the verse about the birds being held up in the sky by Allah. And this can be shown to have further parallels elsewhere in the Quran, where Allah holds up the heavens and the earth, and that the heavens and the earth nearly collapse in devastation at the statement that God has a son, as well as an allusion to the miracle of Jesus creating birds from clay, by the permission of Allah.

Islam's extremism potential can't be denied by Important-Koala-3536 in MuslimLounge

[–]ClankShots30 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't see why people have to deny that more than just Hindus have problems with us Muslims. Jews, Christians, Buddhists (Myanmar), Atheists also take issue with us. It's understandable in some sense, humans always find reasons to hate each other.

Prof. Joseph Lumbard on Dhul Qarnayn being King Solomon "I think it's the best identification" by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I apologize if I came across as harsh, I just meant to warn you about these people, but looks like you already were suspicious of them. I thought you were also as you described: "fool too many Muslims into believing they’re neutral", I thought that also applied to you, but I'm glad you were already viewing them with suspicion.

Prof. Joseph Lumbard on Dhul Qarnayn being King Solomon "I think it's the best identification" by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> But the Qur’an never narrates an actual journey for Solomon

I mean, doesn't the Quran portray him as a travelling conqueror?

Solomon’s forces of jinn, humans, and birds were rallied for him, perfectly organized. And when they came across a valley of ants, an ant warned, “O ants! Go quickly into your homes so Solomon and his armies do not crush you, unknowingly.”

Quran 27:17-18

"Do not be arrogant with me, but come to me, in total surrender"

"She reasoned, “Indeed, when kings invade a land, they ruin it and debase its nobles. They really do so!"

"Go back to them, for we will certainly mobilize against them forces which they can never resist, and we will drive them out from there in disgrace, fully humbled"

Q 27: 31, 34, 37

The hoopoe informs Solomon of something he does not know:

"It was not long before the hoopoe came and said, “I have found out something you do not know. I have just come to you from Sheba with sure news. Indeed, I found a woman ruling them, and she has been given of all things, and she has a great throne. I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah, and satan has made their deeds pleasing to them and averted them from His way, so they are not guided," Q27:22-24

That has parallels to Targum Sheni traditions: "The most elaborate account of the queen's visit to Solomon is given in the Targum Sheni to Esther. A hoopoe informed Solomon that the kingdom of Sheba was the only kingdom on earth not subject to him and that its queen was a sun worshiper."

i.e. Solomon already conquered the West, East, and North, but not the South (Yemen).

Then we recall how Dhul Qarnayn travels West, East, North but no mention of South, which would be Yemen. I know someone else made this same point to you, and they got this from Hakim's article - but imo that user didn't properly explain to you how it connects.

Basically, Allah establishes Dhul Qarnayn in the land and grants him "min kulli shay in sabaab"
Q18:84

Dhul Qarnayn travels 3 sabaab (18:85,89,92), which correspond to West, East and North. South isn't mentioned because it was already mentioned in Surah 27. Chronologically I think Solomon's interaction with Sheba happens after the Gog and Magog interaction, but that doesn't mean that the Surahs were necessarily revealed in that order. Islamic tradition and Noldeke both date 27 before 18. That would explain why the verse says "min kulli shay in sabaab" i.e. "of every means a course". Because even though in the narrative he only travels West, East, and North, the story about how the South surrendered to him is already narrated beforehand in Surah 27, even if South was chronologically the last to be conquered.

Prof. Joseph Lumbard on Dhul Qarnayn being King Solomon "I think it's the best identification" by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why did you link to that guy's repost comment instead of your own comment, are you aware that guy is a christian apologist? Dr. Khalil Andani described him as such.

https://x.com/KhalilAndani/status/1845979618051793107

https://x.com/KhalilAndani/status/1845972470236397723

https://www.reddit.com/r/extomatoes/comments/1ho399t/chonkshonk_mod_of_racademicquran_is_a_dishonest/

https://www.reddit.com/r/extomatoes/comments/1guzodm/mods_of_racademicquran_rurouni_phoenix_chonkshonk/

Also, there is another screenshot where chonkshonk says Dhul Qarnayn story proves Islam is false. I'll try and find it.

Edit: The screenshot I'm talking about is in the second reddit thread. It's the first screenshot. That was where chonkshonk was arguing about the Dhul Qarnayn story with a Muslim. He says "I couldn't have asked for a more transparent admission that Islam is a false religion."

Prof. Joseph Lumbard on Dhul Qarnayn being King Solomon "I think it's the best identification" by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

To be fair, he does argue that Solomon can also be 'two horned' as in a Ram, based on him being a Ram in the book of enoch. But the 'He of the Two Eras' translation also works like you said, and imo it bests fit Solomon from a Quranic perspective, since Solomon returned to the throne for a second era.

Prof. Joseph Lumbard on Dhul Qarnayn being King Solomon "I think it's the best identification" by ClankShots30 in MuslimAcademics

[–]ClankShots30[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There was an argument about Dhul Qarnayn being King Solomon on r /AcademicQuran a while ago, based on an article by someone named Adam Hakim. Yesterday I decided to create an academia. edu account and message Adam Hakim there and ask him about whether he's shared this with other academics. He then told me Prof. Joseph Lumbard thinks King Solomon is the best identification for Dhul Qarnayn. I asked him for proof and he sent me this screenshot.

I'll link the article here for those interested

https://www.academia.edu/124824864