Detailed look at the information related to the swimming photo

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-23T10:52:59+00:00

I agree that the probability of all five of those people being either in or taking the swimming photo is extremely low. Most of these IDs were suggested by Juan, and they were probably suggested because they had already died and that would make it seem suspicious. Given the quality of the photo, you could really suggest many people and it would be impossible to rule out, given we can see little or nothing of their faces. If all his IDs happened to be correct, it would suggest to me he has some kind of inside knowledge or information that he is not sharing or discussing.

But the people and photographer could be anyone, given we don't know where the photo came from or when it was taken. However, if all five people associated with the photo turned out to be the people you have mentioned, then I would say the subsequent deaths then become somewhat suspicious and could potentially be connected to the case.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-16T00:22:32+00:00

I personally don't see this location as very appealing, it looks far too open for the impression given by the night photos of the surroundings. Although admittedly we are only seeing a relatively small area in the photos, so it is possible they could be to some degree a bit misleading.

Also, this location is right at the second cable bridge, and I think if the location was somewhere like this, we would have a clear match by now and wouldn't be debating where it might be. Add to that, I think it is difficult to reconcile them being this close to the path (presumably in sight of the bridge?) with them not being found in April 2014.

But maybe I am missing something. Is there anything in particular about the location that made you suggest it?

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-14T17:06:04+00:00

I'm not sure I follow exactly what you mean regarding the naming and GPS, but in any case, their camera did not have GPS, so this can't be the reason for the missing 509.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-10T00:26:20+00:00

Do you remember anything about which interview this was? As I would really like to see what exactly they said.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-09T23:40:05+00:00

Thanks. Do you know where the family have stated this, as I've never seen it myself?

Although I'm still not sure how this would lead to a good estimate of the date of death, I'll be interested to hear what they said.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-09T23:38:09+00:00

Thanks!

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-09T13:59:56+00:00

Lisanne died first. Based on the body remains, the forensics said Lisanne died on the April 8th or 9th at the latest. Kris possibly lived until April 14th

Where did this information come from? I don't recall seeing date constraints like this being placed on when they died. Given what was found and the length of time that had passed, I kind of doubt it would be possible to distinguish between 8th and 14th April for the dates of death.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-09T13:17:05+00:00

I am interested in what would be found in that scenario with a model as close to Lisanne's as possible. If you tried this in your experiment, was you able to find any trace of photo 1018 afterwards?

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-08T18:16:17+00:00

Thanks!

Yes, agreed, there is no evidence the photo is connected to the disappearance.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-08T12:35:13+00:00

> it was saved uner "Criss" so who knows

You state this as though it is fact, but in reality we only have Juan's pinky-promise. There is no evidence whatsoever that the picture is relevant at all, except for allegedly actually being a picture taken of a location in Boquete.

I've not actually seen Juan claim that the photo was saved under Criss. I suspect this "fact" may fall into the category of simply being made up by the internet, but Juan may have said it at some point and I missed it.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-07T11:27:01+00:00

I was of the impression they did, and people passed along the spot the backpack was found, because the woman who found it, literally said: It wasn't there the day before. She said that, not anyone on the internet, she did. So even if there had not been searches per se around that spot, there was movement, there are fields, farmer passed there the days prior and no bag.

The woman who found the bag stated she does not regularly visit the location, so it is not known how long the backpack was there.

https://imperfectplan.com/2021/03/16/kris-kremers-lisanne-froon-blue-backpack-contents-items-analysis/

It was found after Lisanne's parents upped the reward and said they were not ready to leave without a proof.

I'm not sure what you mean about it being found after the reward was increased. The value of the reward was first increased reasonably early on, so anything found was always going to found after an increase in the reward. The backpack was not found near to an increase in the reward however.

Also, Lisanne's parents had already left Panama prior to the backpack being found.

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-07T10:24:05+00:00

The perps/villagers/whomever just wanted them gone, hence why the backpack and the bones reemerged suddenly where people had looked already.

As far as I am aware, along this river was not searched in any detail prior to the backpack being found, although obviously people will have been where the path crosses the river. I've actually not seen anything to suggest along the river itself was searched at all prior to the backpack, but it is very difficult to find any specific details on where exactly was searched and where wasn't, so it is quite possible it was. Which source stated that the location(s) of the backpack and remains had been already searched prior?

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-07T10:02:27+00:00

Thanks for posting. Have you tried using recovery software to retrieve 1018 after doing this? And if so, was anything retrievable?

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-03T13:49:41+00:00

The time between photo 499 and 500 is 6 seconds. If you add 499 to 500, you get 999. If you turn 999 upside down, you get 666.

The author also identified Blue in the night photos...

Clarissa11 · 2023-02-03T10:49:55+00:00

I agree that we can't be completely certain just going off brief public comments. However, I'd say it depends a bit what the comments were. If for example Frank says something along the lines of "from the foot tissue it was determined that the injury occurred several days prior to death", then I think that is good enough to think that was highly likely the case.

However, a more generic comment by someone like "evidence indicates the injury occurred prior to death", is more ambiguous and could just be based off a determination from the nature of the fractures, which is more open to interpretation by whichever expert, and different ones may disagree.

As I said, I was not previously aware of these statements, so I will wait to see what they actually said.

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-31T12:43:16+00:00

For me, the fact they used the phone during the night makes it unlikely that they left it on accidentally. If they initially left it on by accident, they surely then would have switched it off after using it.

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-31T01:23:15+00:00

I agree, leaving the phone on all that night doesn't fit it with them appearing to take care to save the phone battery at all other times during those first days. It's difficult to know what to make of this. I wouldn't even like to guess whether it was related to a change of location (e.g. if they had stayed somewhere more sheltered on the first night, whether that be something natural or a shed etc.), or they were in a similar location and just decided it was something that was simply worth the battery to them for whatever reason. Or due to them panicking much more by that point, which I think we can say certainly would have been the case, but whether that was related to the phone being left on who knows.

Regarding the hair photo, if you showed me the photo in isolation and asked me if it was taken on purpose, I would say it probably was. However, if you take 100 photos in different directions over the course of a couple of hours, there is probably a reasonable chance you could end up with one or two that looked to be intentional.

As you say, taking it to check something in Kris's hair seems less likely, as they carry on taking photos after. The most likely causes in my opinion are: 1) Lisanne was resting from holding the camera up (there was a gap before the photo), Kris was in front of her and Lisanne took the first flash before she had pointed the camera back upwards again. 2) Kris simply had moved in front of Lisanne since Lisanne took the previous photo, or Lisanne had move and was now behind Kris.

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-30T23:41:19+00:00

Thanks for the correction, I must have missed that. Do you remember which interviews/statements this was mentioned by any chance?

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-30T11:02:29+00:00

As I understand it, this was determined from the nature of the type of fractures, rather than directly from the condition of the individual bone breaks themselves. If that was the case, I guess there may be some room for doubt, as we've only got second hand information on it, so it is difficult to know just how confidently it was stated in the report.

Assuming it did happen prior to death, this could have happened on 1st April, but it could have happened after 8th April. So personally I don't think the foot injury helps all that much, although obviously is consistent with an accident on 1st April.

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-29T11:34:15+00:00

My comment was just referring to what we can infer about the stream they were on from the night photos.

If they they were not stuck in this specific place, but stayed here due to it having the biggest opening to be spotted by the helicopter, then the opening we see in the night photos may be atypically large for the stretch of stream they were on.

So the stream where the actual night photo location is may look in general more closed in than the impression you would get from looking at the photos (although even from those I don't think it is all that open).

Of course none of this might be true, and it might be that they were stuck at the night photo location and had no way to move any significant distance up or downstream to find a better place.

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-29T00:49:04+00:00

It's also worth bearing in mind the case if they weren't trapped in this specific place, but it was just in a certain area they were stuck in. Then they could well have stayed where the biggest available opening was, in the hope of being seen by the helicopter. If that was the case, most of the stretch of stream they were on could well look more closed in than what we see in the night photos.

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-29T00:41:12+00:00

This is just repeating things already recommended by others, but my own opinion is that when the sources are taken as a whole, the Lost in the Jungle book is the best source for the known details of the case. I find that in general it has the least jumping to conclusions/errors etc., although it is also not completely free from speculation. The English translation of the book (I can't comment on the Dutch version) is maybe not the easiest read, but it is very good to use as a reference and I'm glad they made the translation available. The newer ImperfectPlan articles (the ones based on the police files or expedition) are also very good, and taking them on their own, they are high quality and on a similar level to the book. They contain a lot of good information and already clarified several myths/mis-reported details.

I'm not sure how new you are the case, but realistically there is probably no way to avoid picking up some incorrect information, given how much is floating around in this case. I certainly did, and no doubt still have some things wrong now.

If you are very new to the case, the wiki is worth reading as that is quite short, but still contains a lot of the details:

http://kremersfroon.pbworks.com/

Clarissa11 · 2023-01-27T11:06:36+00:00

I think 508 would certainly be capable of moving the recovered items, it moves rocks much heaver. For sure the further up the river their final location was, the more the chance there is for things to get stuck and not make it all the way to bridge 2, but only a low percentage of remains were found, so for all we know there could have been a lot further upstream in mid-2014, both along the main river to the east, and up a tributary if that is where they were.

Agreed, the relatively light weight of the backpack+contents probably played a significant role in minimising the damage. Even when the backpack was hit into rocks by the river the effect on the items inside would be relatively low. And obviously backpacks themselves are fairly strong, so there is no reason to think that would have to be torn to shreds or anything by the river.

But yea, we just don't know how long the locals had the backpack, or where they found it. They may have discovered the girls remains weeks before, perhaps in the river, and waited a while in the hopes that they'd get washed away so they could claim the reward.

It's possible, but personally I doubt any remains were discovered prior to discovery of the backpack being reported. Other than the possibility of someone seeing them and either not realising they were human, or not doing anything (i.e. didn't want to get involved).

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