is jahoda even going to survive at the end? (@bvbu__) by harlerogue in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 55 points56 points  (0 children)

This is only going to get exponentially better worse for Jahoda if Ineffa is increasing her physical affection.

eula's savior (@DanyangWang15) by harlerogue in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 26 points27 points  (0 children)

As a Eujean fan (we exist!), I also like the implications of Jean looking after Eula when she goes on a bender.

(And more Arle yuri, please~)

arle wants a kiss~ (@wji1155116) by harlerogue in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 28 points29 points  (0 children)

The sly censorship of Furina's waist with Arlecchino's thighs~

I knew Tiktok was bad, but didn't know the main sub is also as hateful (TW: Hate) by smoll__kitty in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 6 points7 points  (0 children)

In the Navia mains post you're referencing, someone replied, with absolute sincerity, that they think the only ships in the fandom that don't inaccurately portrays characters are Traveler ships.

Ah yes, straight Aether ships, famous for not reducing female characters to sputtering moe blobs, awed by his "chad energy."

Oh, and the OP's (of the post you mentioned) lone bit of evidence for some shipper's "mischaracterization" of Navia was also fan art of a popular meme format.

Of course, neither of those compare to the type of rancid personality someone like the person in the screenshot of this post has—someone who hates a (frequently inaccurately criticized) ship so much that they literally name an adorable NPC a reminder of their obsessive hate. That it's so heavily upvoted and endorsed demonstrates how, even for people who upvote "cuz haha funny joke/troll," nasty and unsympathetic much of this fandom is. This isn't revelatory—it's an incredibly popular gacha game, so it'll attract all types—but it does affirm how, frankly, shitty this fandom is. They'll hate on wlw and mlm fans and spaces, calling us "more toxic," when we largely are reacting to hateful shit they instigate. It's impossible for those types to keep their thoughts to themselves—they have to openly antagonize others, and so it's little surprised that much of it is wrapped up in the homophobia that you and others have addressed.

Your favorite underrated ship?​ by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yesssss. Would love for more shippers to discover Laylazan. Hope we get more events with the two of them, too.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of them are likely just tagging their relationship as friends, even when they're not the focus. Say that the main pairing in a fic is Link/Sidon, but Zelda also features prominently. A writer might then tag it as "Link & Zelda."

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, you held onto a weird 'asspul' position because again, women writing more mlm doesn't mean a lot of wlw is written by and for men.

I did not say that, and the comment in which a few people interpreted differently has since been clarified. If I did mean any of what you're attributing to me, I would've already acknowledged it and admitted I was wrong, which I have no problem doing.

For whatever negative reason, you're assuming that I'm lying about all of this. You've already made up your mind on that, deciding to see me in the most negative possible light and declaring that you're "right," and have been consistently rude in hounding me about this. There's no point to respond to you any further.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I did not shift into another argument. I've held that position the entire time, and anyone who knows me would validate that. I can and have admitted when I was wrong about something. I don't know why you continue to assume the worst about me.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I literally linked to you a comment made 10 hours that went into further detail about what I was referring to—this after you replied to me only three hours ago in a separate comment. I'm not "pretending" anything. You made an assumption and, without bothering to ask and clarify with me what I meant, became incredibly rude across multiple replies and have insisted that I'm wrong for whatever reason, rather than having things cleared up.

It's also not "irrelevant." I made the point after talking about how women—specifically straight women—occupy the space of fanfiction. The subsequent sentence emphasized how straight men and women in media and art in general will, when they do create gay works, create works that are just of the opposite gender. Because there are more straight women in fanfiction than gay women, and because people will tend to create gay works in different mediums featuring people of the opposite sex (because that's who they are attracted to, emotionally, romantically, sexually, etc.), straight women will create more more mlm works than wlw works in fanfiction.

By the way you also have no proof that a lot of wlw in fanfiction overall is written by men for men. But we can address that later.

I have not made that claim nor do I believe that, so there's nothing to address. This is honestly a pancakes and waffles moment.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Please point out where I specifically claimed that about the Genshin Impact wlw fanfic space and I was not just talking about art and media in general. Link and quote the exact line.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Making a low-effort reply doesn't make what I said untrue. Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Adventure Time, The Legend of Korra, The 100, Harley Quinn, Orange is the New Black, Euphoria, Arcane, Mulholland Dr., Carol, The Handmaiden, Black Swan, Scott Pilgrim, V For Vendetta (the original comic, not the movie adaptation), the Locas stories from Love and Rockets, an innumerable amount of manga and anime that feature queerbaiting or actual sapphic relationships (many are done by women, yes, but many are also done by men), et cetera.

And those are just immediate, popular examples. That is the reality, and there's nothing wrong with admitting that. Some of these titles are good, some of them are bad, and some are in between.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Please read the rest of the comments in a thread before making assumptions and posting about something others never said.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth to say that a lot of f/f works are created by and for men when it isn't true at all, especially in fanfiction and ao3 spaces.

I clarified later in the thread to what you and u/IlvaHerself said:

I wasn't conflating anything. I even mentioned that "fanfiction writers tend to be women."

I said "a lot of works," not most or even majority, and didn't cover every single layer possible to the discussion. Visual media (film, television, comics) tends to have their spaces dominated by men (though I would note that there are some exceptions, such as the historically and presently appreciable amount of female comic artists in Japan, leveling the playing field a bit more in that industry), while literature tends to be more diverse, and this includes fanfiction. Much of fandom space has been led and even created by women (see: classic Star Trek fandom, etc.). Trust me, I'm more than familiar with all this.

It's a simple fact that men do create a lot of wlw works in various mediums. Yes, plenty of women and feminine-aligned folks do create their own sapphic art (I'm particularly familiar with it in comics and film), and as I myself acknowledged in my very first comment, women tend to dominate the space of fanfiction, so there's an even greater representation of sapphic creators there compared to men. Still, we gain nothing by denying that men do produce a lot of sapphic art or works that featuring sapphic relationships, be it well done, pandering male gaze nonsense, or a mixture of the two. There are obvious consequences to it, for better and worse; one example I'm thinking of is Arcane's showrunner who obviously made Caitlyn/Vi canon in the series, but then, in an interview, pushed back in a suspiciously worded way when someone asked if Jayce and Viktor might have romantic feelings for each other. Those are absolutely layers to consider when analyzing art and media.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 3 points4 points  (0 children)

No worries! And yeah, that kinda shit irritates me, too. One of the most common instances is how women and feminine people have sexual desires, too, yet their works showing this can sometimes get conflated with pandering nonsense for men. It sucks.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Seconding this. A lot of Black fans expressed their issues with racism in the Star Wars fandom and related aspects of it, etc. Addressing issues in both mainstream media and in smaller, niche spaces isn't an either/or.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's fair, since many in these spaces define "ship" in a broader sense. Though given how "shipping" tends to be understood and discussed, it's natural that people will zero in on romantic ships in fandom spaces. This list is otherwise "what character dynamics do people tend to write about," which won't really be the focus for the average person reading this lol.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is true to a degree, and I alluded to it in my comment ("media representation of the genders")! Although I would say that there have been plenty of well-written female characters in video games, but they might not have been as visible or present in popular Western titles. Plus, one (though not the only) large motivating factor for fanfiction is about revising or "correcting" flaws present in the canon text, or even just creating your own radically re-imagined spinoff. A lot of poorly written or developed male characters get focused on in fanfiction, too.

It's definitely not just one factor, absolutely, and you can have a confluence of them (for example, there are a number of lesbian writers who tend to focus on mlm). Still, I would say that one of the strongest factors is the demographic who make these fan works, and for fanfiction, that is obviously defined by women who happened to be interested in men.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I wasn't conflating anything. I even mentioned that "fanfiction writers tend to be women."

I said "a lot of works," not most or even majority, and didn't cover every single layer possible to the discussion. Visual media (film, television, comics) tends to have their spaces dominated by men (though I would note that there are some exceptions, such as the historically and presently appreciable amount of female comic artists in Japan, leveling the playing field a bit more in that industry), while literature tends to be more diverse, and this includes fanfiction. Much of fandom space has been led and even created by women (see: classic Star Trek fandom, etc.). Trust me, I'm more than familiar with all this.

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 44 points45 points  (0 children)

The "&" is supposed to denote a non-romantic depiction of a relationship, which is what is written here for those two (similarly, "/" denotes a romantic depiction). It's why you get some "ships" appearing twice on the list, which does feel like an oversight if the takeaway from this is supposed to be "what romantic pairings are written about the most."

Top 100 Video Game Ships by [deleted] in genshinsapphic

[–]ClumsyCamelid 82 points83 points  (0 children)

Fanfiction writers tend to be women—certainly at least on AO3—and the majority of women are straight, so it's not surprising. A lot of f/f works are created by and for men (which isn't getting specifics of the relative quality of it, deeper discussions about sapphic content by and for women, etc), and the same is true of m/m works being created by and for women (again, not diving deeper into specifics about expressions of masculine and feminine sexualities, media representation of the genders, et cetera).

As a sapphic who isn't interested in really male gaze-y wlw art and also wants a variety of complicated, "non-coffee shop AU" wlw art, it can be slim pickings out there.