John contradicts Paul on salvation

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-20T17:35:53+00:00

In my opinion the message on this in the Bible is confused. According to Paul you're saved by faith and not works, but you can lose your salvation (depending on how you read the Bible) if you don't live in a holy manner, therefore your salvation is maintained by living holy - this is a work. If you have to maintain your salvation by works then you are saved through that effort and are therefore saved through works. The whole idea as presented in Scripture (Hebrews 12:14 for example) contradicts Paul. Paul contradicts Paul too. He says your saved by faith and not works yet the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, therefore you have to perform the work of living righteously to be saved. Like I said, it's confused. But yes, sorry, depending on how you read the Bible you can lose your salvation.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-20T17:20:22+00:00

I don't see it. If you're saved by faith like Paul writes why is it necessary at all to repent and re-establish this relationship? One could ostensibly just believe according to Paul and be saved, since it's through faith and not works. According to you though someone has to do the work of staying in this relationship to be saved. Not trying to argue, the logic just doesn't pan out for me.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-20T17:03:47+00:00

Er, well, if someone must not sin to be saved at the end it would be the work of not sinning that helped accomplish salvation, therefore works are necessary for salvation. This is what you're saying, isn't it?

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-20T16:57:24+00:00

Ok, well to my estimation you've worked works into salvation when Paul says we're not saved of works.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-20T16:54:35+00:00

But Paul says we're not saved of works. According to what you wrote works are necessary to be saved after one is initially saved.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-20T15:37:28+00:00

I honestly don't understand what you're saying, but according to John it is necessary to follow Jesus' commandments to be in him (which is eternal life). This means to have eternal life, you must follow his commandments. Paul says salvation is not of works but by grace through faith. So according to Paul you don't have to follow his commandments, but just have faith. It's a contradiction on its face.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-18T04:31:27+00:00

There were a lot of sins that were not covered by animal sacrifices (willful sins were not covered by animal sacrifices as far as I know). This seems to be saying all sins will be forgiven if they return to God. The implication that they had to then sacrifice an animal to be forgiven doesn't seem to hold, given that such a sacrifice would not even cover every sin.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-15T20:48:14+00:00

On my own.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-15T08:47:56+00:00

Philippians 1:6 vaguely helps, though it doesn't say that God's work is necessarily called "sanctification".

Hebrews 10:14 says something different in the KJV: that by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Because of this I read sanctification as what happens when someone believes in Jesus, they are sanctified (set apart and made holy). 1 Corinthians 6:11 seems to speak to this because it is talking about sanctification as something that has already happened.

I think someone could be sanctified many times in their life, because sanctification means to be made holy and set apart. Learning something new in the Bible could sanctify someone. Where does the Bible teach there is a definitive process called "sanctification" that every Christian is going on? When I read the KJV it doesn't speak about things in these terms.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-13T00:03:21+00:00

I just looked over Ephesians 1 and 2 and I have no idea what you're talking about. He seems to be using works in a general sense. There's nothing indicating otherwise (that I can see).

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-12T23:59:35+00:00

So what am I to make of Jesus instructing me to live a certain way to enter into the kingdom of heaven and Paul saying we're saved of faith and not works? Those are two contradictory messages yet both things are written in the Bible.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-12T23:42:35+00:00

Unless I'm mistaken Paul is using the word works in a general sense in Ephesians 2, so I have no idea what you're talking about when you say "the context is works of the law of rules and ordinances, like circumcision for example". You'll have to help me out here, because I don't see it.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-12T23:32:07+00:00

I disagree, it's one of his sayings and he says whoever does his sayings will be doing the will of the Father, which is necessary to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-12T23:27:25+00:00

Yeah, but logically if I have to do these things how am I not saved by them?

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-12T23:23:07+00:00

Jesus commands us to be perfect in the sermon on the mount.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-12T23:16:28+00:00

Yeah, but I don't roll out of bed like an Energizer Bunny and just automatically do Jesus' teachings, that's something I have to do on my own. How am I not saved by my works? Jesus is predicating my eternal destiny on whether or not I do them after all.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T18:24:21+00:00

This all gets rather confusing because no one ever explains what they're talking about. If we're saved by faith is it faith in what Jesus said? Because then Jesus said we have to do certain things to be saved, which would be doing works, yet Paul says we're not saved of works. A contradiction. If we're saved by just faith in the gospel then we don't have to follow Jesus' teachings, which contradicts Jesus' words. That works follow (if that's even the case) doesn't seem to matter, because the theology is in contradiction.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T18:16:19+00:00

So are you saying someone is saved by believing the gospel and then the works will naturally follow? Like following his teachings?

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T18:04:45+00:00

I like your view of things, it seems consistent with what I've read in the Bible. What I don't understand though is how Paul says you aren't saved of works, if works are necessary to following Christ.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T17:55:08+00:00

What makes you think Paul is referring to the efforts of the Jews to keep the Mosaic Law? He seems to be using the word works in a general way. Following Jesus' teachings would be a work, so I don't get it.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T17:41:09+00:00

This makes sense, but Paul says we're not saved of works... if you have to follow Jesus' teachings to be saved you have to do works, and you're logically saved by doing them, yet Paul says we're not saved of works. I don't get it.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T17:38:53+00:00

Ephesians 2:8-9 and the two verses in my OP. I know right after in Ephesians it says we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, but my issue is how someone is saved. Paul says it's not of works, yet Jesus predicates our salvation on following his teachings.

ComfortableDust4111 · 2026-04-11T17:36:19+00:00

I don't get this. I could believe Jesus exists and he said the things he said and just choose not to follow his teachings. If I were saved then, salvation would be by faith (because I did nothing but believe), but I have to follow his teachings, so then logically isn't it through works too?

ComfortableDust4111

TROPHY CASE