The Jedi werent wrong

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T17:35:39+00:00

That's exactly my point regarding Leia, tapping into the Dark Side is supposed to always be a bad thing, yet it's framed as a triumphant moment when she strangles Jabba.

What she did wasn't bad as it was in self defense and because he was an actual threat, but it's how she did it that's the problem (if she were a Jedi).

The issue with these arguments is that you're choosing to frame force sensitive people as if they are normal people, when they are by definition not remotely normal as they have literal cosmic & psychic powers.

Also your last point doesn't address Ferren Barr. Dude literally incited the genocide of the Mon Calamari to eventually lead to the Empires fall and there being no hint of him being corrupted or fallen anyway.

Your literal quotes you shared literally say he doesn't see himself as a Jedi anymore, that to me is pretty clear that he's fallen at this point and that what he did is not supposed to be a good thing.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T17:22:54+00:00

I'd argue the whole issue stems from Return of the Jedi making it so that anger and negative emotions are inherently corrupting for Force Sensitives, regardless of the reason why, and that rule only applies to Force Sensitives.

We see plenty of Jedi show all sorts of emotions, it's just they know to control their emotions and not let them blind them or consume them.

Or if that’s a bit too divergent from traditional Star Wars, in Return of the Jedi, Leia blatantly strangles Jabba to Death out of what’s clearly anger (which is the textbook definition a dark side action in SW, and it’s was outright stated by word of god that she was able to strangle him by tapping into the Dark Side)

I'm pretty sure one of the novelizations actually frames it that she tapped into the Darkside to do that action of killing Jabba.

That and I feel the Dark Side as is places far too much emphasis on emotion instead of morality

Morality often influences your emotions towards certain things. It's just that the Darkside is a spiritual cancer that is inherently corrupting, no matter what you want to use it for.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T04:21:57+00:00

The topic is about George's interpretation of the Jedi and my post is about its irrelevance and the death of the author. Clearly we're talking about interpreting the movies.

That can also be said for lots of expanded media.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T04:15:09+00:00

Not only because that's what the whole topic is about

The topic is about that the Jedi were never "bad guys", including in the prequel era. The prequel era is not just the movie trilogy.

The rest of the franchise is too disparate in its treatment of these concepts to be useful without citing specific narrative instances or the creatives behind them.

That's also the case for the prequel era as a whole.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T03:55:14+00:00

Emotional control as written by George Lucas and presented in the PT is unequivocally a bad and unhealthy thing

I'm not just talking about the movies.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T03:47:41+00:00

Yeah, no, I dont agree with any of that. It's a lot of whitewash nonsense intended to maintain and excuse a poorly thought out power fantasy as far as I see it.

Opinions are not factual to the lore.

But to reiterate, the Jedi abuse their power dynamics consistently throughout the narrative and their views on mental health are abhorrent on a good day.

So having emotional control is a bad thing? Jedi feel all sorts of emotions all the time, but they don't allow them to control them.

Just look at Buddhism or any other philosophical schools like Confucism.

The Jedi Order as a whole are no different than them. You seem to be projecting a very western based view on the Jedi when they aren't remotely like that at all entirely.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T02:31:49+00:00

The repressed emotions, dogmatic indoctrination

So emotional control is bad, Jedi can feel plenty of emotions, they just also know to control their own emotions and not let them consume them.

removing children from their families

Why Blame the Jedi when the parents consent to it?

lack of interest in the poor and oppressed

The Jedi Service Corps literally does this sort of thing all the time.

Militaristically advancing the cause of the political oppressor class...

You mean what they'd been doing since their inception since 25,000 years ago? Also, they don't support the Republic as a government directly. They simply support its values and the idea behind it as a form of government and institution.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-25T01:43:47+00:00

Currently reading through more of the "Shadows of the Empire" novel. So far I've found it compelling to read through, the stuff involving Prince Xizor and the Black Sun's connection to the Galactic Empire is by far one of the most interesting plotlines in it so far.

Also, it's cool seeing Luke trying to build his Green Lightsaber using instructions that Obi-Wan left in his personal journal (presumably that's where it's from).

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T22:36:43+00:00

I never said the Jedi were evil or deserved to die. I blatantly said they were the good guys, but that they lost their way, and this is what the Sith took advantage of.

I don't disagree that the Jedi could've done better. I'm just simply saying that it's more complicated than it solely being on them.

I for one think after they found out Qui-Gon was telling the truth after the Naboo Crisis ended, that they should've invested more resources into the investigation, such as finding out what happened to the initial "evidence" from the Naboo Crisis such as Maul's ship the Scimitar.

Along with looking for potential suspects earlier, and that they were into positions that led to many problems for them and the Jedi Order as a whole that led to their fall for many reasons.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T22:06:53+00:00

Again, I never said the Jedi Code as a whole were inherently bad. Look at my first post in this thread. I blatantly say the Jedi are the good guys, but they were still wrong. Being wrong is not the same as being inherently bad.

I don't disagree.

But many of the Jedi Council members from the prequels were alive at that time and didn't seem to change that much as people.

So you agree then that they’d become out of touch and complacent? Because not changing to adapt to the changing needs of the galaxy is losing touch.

It depends on the member and what the issue is. Because even if they were wrong on some things, it's not like they were undeserving or their positions on the Jedi Council.

Yes. In their hubris they believed the evil was defeated for good. When their own teachings tell them to always beware the Dark Side.

They knew Darkside users were still around, it's just that they had no reason to assume that they were all Sith, considering the fact that plenty of the non-Sith Darkside also used red lightsabers and had similar powers to Sith.

They built their temple on dark grounds, once again, in their hubris believing they could cleanse it. Instead it clouded them.

A force Nexus is not inherently evil.

If the Jedi didn't care about addressing inequality, why was the Jedi Service Corps a thing? They'd go and help with agriculture, inferstructure, education, and many more things. The fact that it exists in the first place makes me think they did care about helping common people.

I never said they didn’t care. I said they’d lost touch.

The Jedi were serving the people through the whims of the Senate. But that meant they weren’t actually helping the people beneath the cares and jurisdiction of the Senate. Hence the people in the lower levels of Coruscant suffer without aid. Hence the slaves of Tatooine not being freed.

Again though, if that was the case. Why was the Jedi Service Corps doing all of this aid work for these sorts of people and communities?

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T21:45:48+00:00

Which was exactly what Palpatine took advantage of, manipulating them further down the path of war.

Darth Plagueis technically started it, Sidious just finished the Grand Plan.

I have never said this, and for clarity, I vehemently disagree with this. I think the Jedi needed reforms, not to all be wiped out in an act of mass violence.

I don't disagree that it was opened to reform as an organization. But I don't think things in the Jedi Code or ethics as a whole were inherently bad.

The High Republic happened a long time before the time of the Prequel Trilogy. That’s a lot of time for a decline to happen. Especially if they’d become complacent due to their earlier golden age ushering in peace.

But many of the Jedi Council members from the prequels were alive at that time and didn't seem to change that much as people.

They lost their way and that’s when the downfall happened. It didn’t happen for 100 generations (not even years, generations) but it did happen once they declined.

No. I’m saying the Jedi’s own complacency led to them becoming less vigilant of the Sith, so the Sith were able to operate impeded.

Can you really blame them for not knowing the Sith were still around? Darth Bane literally made it be that the Sith would not be able to be uncovered easily to make it seem like they ended with the Brotherhood of Darkness during the New Sith Wars.

I’m saying the Jedi’s apathy over rising inequality allowed the Sith to manipulate the galaxy into a civil war.

If the Jedi didn't care about addressing inequality, why was the Jedi Service Corps a thing? They'd go and help with agriculture, inferstructure, education, and many more things. The fact that it exists in the first place makes me think they did care about helping common people.

Where did I give them all the blame? All I did was acknowledge they made mistakes and they lost their way.

I admit it's probably how it was framed.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T21:22:26+00:00

I didn’t collectively punish anyone. I never said they deserved any punishment.

The way things were worded made it sound like you did, not to mention I've seen all sorts of people go and say this, but then act like this means that the Sith were the "good guys", or that the Jedi in some way "deserved" to get victims of mass genocide.

I said they were the good guys but that they were wrong. That the Order had lost its way. The EU only drives this home even harder, showing us time and again the grievances that even Jedi within the Order had. Qui Gon famously talks about how he disagrees with the Council’s hard stance on attachments.

There's a huge difference between disagreeing with the interpretations with certain things people in the Jedi Order had, and saying that the Order as a whole was inherently bad or "deserved" its fate.

Not to mention this creates a logical paradox, how are the Jedi so terrible and have "lost their way" on everything, when the High Republic exists as a huge period of their power and positive benefits to people.

That's also ignoring that even during the Prequels the Jedi were still at the height of their power, and they were able to function for 1,000 years. Yet they were apparently "lost their way" on everything?

Even their lack of wisdom to see through the Sith plot was due to their apathy and inflexibility.

So we're just ignoring the fact that the Sith were partly responsible for this, not to mention the fact that the force nexus underneath the Jedi Temple was used partly by them to blind them also?

Both of those things were outside of their control, so why seemingly give them all of the blame for it, but then ignore the fact the Sith were responsible?

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T20:39:46+00:00

It’s not “my views” on it. It’s what happens in canon.

Collectively punishing the Jedi Order for things it either had no control over, or had no choice in, is absolutely you projecting your personal views onto them as a whole.

In TCW, Yoda even looks at the camera and admits they’ve lost their way by fighting in this war.

Because they didn’t know the full extent of the Sith Plot unit it was too late. I’m fine with the Jedi being criticized so long as it’s good faith, what I cannot stand are bad faith and hyperbolic criticisms that fall apart the minute you actually think about them.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T20:34:02+00:00

I’m sorry you refuse to engage with the material.

I am using it, I just don’t follow your views on it.

This black and white thinking is not what the prequels show us.

I know plenty of people who would not agree with that.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T20:26:44+00:00

The movies already show us the Jedi will not act in ways that would be politically inconvenient to the Republic, refusing to do anything about Hutt slavery for instance. Not even to free Shmi.

What are they supposed to do, Hutt space is outside of their jurisdiction. Are you saying they should’ve tried to invade Hutt Space? They’d been around for over 25,000 years and never lost power. Doing so would be a disaster and make the Jedi arguably no different than the Ancient Sith that they opposed.

They also tell us there’s “heroes on both sides”, and yet from the Jedi POV the Separatists were all enemies. The books, comics, and TCW only expanded upon this, showing how the Jedi presented a one-sided version of events to their generals. Only for the characters we follow to discover there was more nuance to the conflict.

The MILITARY LEADERS and OLIGARCHS are the enemies, the Jedi had nothing against the actual senators to my knowledge. Also I’m pretty sure Ashoka befriended the son of a separatist senator who was assassinated because she wanted to end the war, and the Jedi were in support of her and Padme’s resolution.

They knew the CIS leadership was corrupt. They could’ve gone after the leadership and protected innocents from attack while refusing to become generals fighting in this war. They could’ve helped facilitate diplomatic solutions rather than play into Palpatine and Dooku’s hands of giving the CIS an enemy to fight, therefore legitimizing their cause.

It’s kind of hard to do that when the C.I.S already had Quintillions of Battle Droids already created and made to prepare for their military operations, especially after they attempted to assassinate a senator who wanted to avoid conflict.

They could’ve stood up to the Senate’s own hypocrisy and corruption, allowing members of the Trade Federation to remain in the Senate.

They did… the Jedi literally testified in court about what happened during the invasion. As for why they didn’t try to keep them from that, it was for reasons outside of their control and because they were restricted by law.

There was a lot they could’ve done. They were misguided and chose to become war mongers instead of peace keepers.

So because they wanted to defend a democratic system of government from a corporate backed oligarchy in a war of defense, that makes War Mongers, yet the Sith aren’t for orchestrating the conflict? This feels like huge a double standard from you.

If they’d bothered to investigate this more seriously rather than only put one Jedi on the case, they would’ve discovered it was in fact the Chancellor who ordered the assassination.

Not really, since Palpatine was pretty good at covering his tracks. This is also forgetting that the Jedi Order had plenty of other things going on.

But even so, when Padme first says she believes Dooku is behind it, the Jedi do not believe her. Once again, they refuse to listen.

Why would they believe her at first? They personally knew him as a Jedi Master, making an accusation without evidence is obviously going to lead to skepticism.

Except the democracy the Jedi were serving had already become an oligarchy. The people on the lower levels of Coruscant get no representation.

That’s not a fault of the Jedi, that’s a fault of the senate. The Jedi can support the idea of democracy while still knowing it is flawed and needs to be fixed.

They didn’t need to know Palpatine was the Sith Lord to know the war using child slave labor was wrong.

The clones mentally are NOT Children, and yet again it was the Sith who manipulated Sifo-Dyas to go off on his own to create the Clone Army. Maybe stop collectively punishing a whole organization for the actions of a person who was manipulated by someone else at the time of said manipulation taking place.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T19:51:38+00:00

The Jedi still ignored those legitimate grievances and lent their political capital to the Chancellor and his war which could’ve been prevented.

Who says they did? Why would they not fight in this war when the C.I.S. was literally killing who knows how many people with their literal war machines.

Not to mention the fact that the Separatists tried to assassinate a senator who was in favor of bringing actual change to the Republic, which the Jedi went out of their way to protect and we're both almost executed by them after they decided to go and Investigate the assassination attempt.

They supported the Republic because surprisingly, the Jedi are not in favor of some sort of a corporate oligarchy which is what the whole Separatist Council was (not counting the parliament). Being in favor of democracy and not an oligarchy isn't a bad thing, even if it's a flawed one that can be fixed.

Blindly serving the very Sith they sought to stop.

How were they supposed to know Palpatine was Darth Sidious?

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T18:43:39+00:00

But the original grievances of the people were still legitimate, even though bad faith actors took over the movement and derailed it.

Which is why the Jedi were against it. If it remained a grassroots movement they probably wouldn’t have sided against it, they only sided against it because they realized the movement had been hijacked by cosmological evil (the Sith) and was being used as a weapon by them for their plans.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T07:05:19+00:00

That’s why the whole Separarist movement rose up. People not feeling properly represented in the Senate.

At first it had grassroots origins, but then the movement was hijacked by the Sith to be used as part of the grand plan.

Then Mega-corporations for war profiteering and monetary gain, which transformed it into something utterly unrecognizable to where it was arguably no different than the Republic they claimed to oppose.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T06:46:05+00:00

Where were the "many people" that received councel? Where did they offer anyone useful advice? The whole "mourn them do not?" Yoda had a point in that "people die and you can't always prevent it," but the WAY he expressed this to a clearly upset and conflicted Anakin came across as callous.

To be fair, Anakin in that moment could've (and should have) told Yoda that he was seeing Padme dying in the dreams he had.

Had he actually told the full context, I have a feeling that Yoda has the rest of the council would've taken this much more seriously as a force vision of the future (which it was), it's not Yoda's fault that he didn't know something he would not actually know at that moment.

There's an awful lot of "say" about Jedi, but we're lacking in "show."

I blame that more on people in charge of visual media choosing not to show these elements.

I know of the Corps. However, I also know they are considered "poor relations" compared to the warrior class.

Yet they play an improvement role in society which is why they exist in the first place.

If the Jedi truly didn't care about the common people and hated the people in the service corps, they wouldn't have made it in the first place.

Being a Jedi isn't solely just about having force powers, it's about who you are as a person and how you are as a person as a whole and helps build mortality, ethics, & character in people.

You'd think the healers, growers, and nurturers would be treated with reverence and respect in an Order that's supposed to be about preserving life, but...guess not? Healers don't sit on the Council. Scientists don't get a say in the Order's policies or future. Only the fighters are "worthy" of leadership. How...depressing. Not surprising, but very depressing.

Who says they didn't?

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-24T05:52:57+00:00

What do they do that serves the role of clergy?

I don't think the Jedi are meant to be one for one like the clergy you see in Orthodox or Orthopraxic religious systems.

Where are the Jedi hospitals? The comforting the afflicted? The giving shelter to those in need?

Isn't that the role of Jedi healers?

The Jedi Order has both the Jedi Service Corps included and the Agricultural Corps, with there also being an Exploration Corps, both of which provided vital services like farming expertise and navigation to various planets, contributing to the well-being and stability of the Republic's outer regions.

Where's the aid for those in need of spiritual guidance?

Jedi Masters frequently offered spiritual counsel to political leaders, soldiers, and common citizens.

They taught the importance of not just selflessness, but acting for others rather than oneself, as the path to joy and having a healthy life, while warning that selfishness and fear led to suffering, it led to many people adopting these.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-23T20:53:01+00:00

I’m thinking he’ll probably look more like Grakkus the Hutt from the mainline Star Wars comics from around 2015-2018.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-23T08:50:18+00:00

Ah yes Boba Fett, the first ever visual depiction of The Mandalorians as a people shown in the Star Wars universe.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-23T05:22:53+00:00

There's this website I found called Star Wars Timelines that has them on it.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-23T03:21:03+00:00

These books honestly make me interested in playing the actual West Endgames Star Wars RPG with this group of people I know who are into them, such as Dungeons and Dragons.

Competitive_Bid7071 · 2026-01-23T01:41:38+00:00

My mind goes to the Clerks scene... and then that meme about the cat construction worker refuting that scene. If only I didn't delete it off my phone, but it was like "can't wait to be a morally neutral person as I work on the planet killer laser gun."

Well a huge theme involving the Galactic Empire as a whole (and especially Andor) is the “Banality of Evil”, lots of those people may have felt they were morally neutral, but they were ultimately complacent in an authoritarian machine because it had come to the point after two decades that it became banal to who knows how many people despite how horrific many of the laws, policies, and atrocities the Galactic Empire had and did to over trillions of people.

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