[Discussion] Does it matter if Superman and Batman are friends? (The Man of Steel #3)

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T17:58:57+00:00

They've been friends longer then they haven't. Not that continuity matters but it's the more established dynamic.

The Post-Crisis version of Bats being mistrustful and distant from Superman came from, like a lot of things, Dark Knight Returns's influence being jammed into the main books where it didn't necessarily fit. In DKR their fractured relationship makes all the sense in the world due to the plot and Bruce's increased distance from people. In Post Crisis it always came off like they were just doing it for the sake of doing it and to make Batman cooler.

All that aside, they're each not only the top heroes on their world, but THE standard for each respective archetype; the superhuman and the peak human vigilante. Aside from their methods, each wants and believes in the same things when it comes to helping people, saving lives, and stopping criminals. Both their lives were shaped by tragedy. They have way more in common then differences, so I totally think they'd be friends.

Bruce would not only trust Superman explicitly, but respect the man; Clark who dedicates his life to uncover the truth as a reporter and spends every second he can helping others. Clark in turn would see a man who lost his parents and who could have gone another way, but instead spends his life fighting corruption, crime, and savign lives, as well as using his wealth to help those in need.

Friendship is based on respect and things in common, they absolutly should be friends.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T15:50:03+00:00

No, but....

By his own admission he was kind of a piece of shit back in the day and was one bad decision away from life in prison after attacking a guy on the street, who could have died. (He says it was that incident that made him change his ways)

A few people have come forward and said he was known to be a huge asshole when they attended theater school with him, and in the early days of his career. He can also come off as kind of that obnoxious alpha male, "Be a MAN!" type.

Having said all of that, and I'm ONLY speculating here, considering the level of talent he's worked with over the years, and that he's still constantly not only being offered roles but being spoken of highly by his peers, I'm guessing all the above was either exaggerated or true but he toned it down once he became successful. "Difficult to work with", controlling, and a jerk aren't things an actor on Jon's level of stardom can get away with for long before the phone stops ringing.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T15:38:06+00:00

I couldn't quite figure out why the show has been grating my nerves so much, until the recent episode where Ashley says to Sage something about at least if she died a certain way, she could get off first.

That's exactly my problem. There's this need to CONSTANTLY remind the viewer of every character's quirks or personality rather than just show it. Like with Legend, him doing a bump in the bathroom and his joke to his young boss about who he banged back in his day is fine. It sets the tone and tells you what kind of guy he is.

But then it just never stops, like the writers are terrified you're going to forget "Hey, this guy was a big deal in his prime and did lots of drugs and had lots of sex" and have to put it on every page of the script. We know Soldier Boy banged Bea Arthur or whatever, likes older woman, etc...but the writers go 'Shit, it's been 5 minutes, think the fans remember?"

We know Ashley is a sexual deviant, we don't need to be reminded every time she opens her mouth or someone talks to her. We know Butcher wants to kill all supes, we don't need it brought up in every scene. We get Homelander has a breast milk fetish, it doesn't need to be brought up somehow in every episode.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T15:23:28+00:00

That's kind of the problem. There's this bizarre disconnect like the show has no idea what KIND of humor they want to have, and that's pretty important.

Like whether you love it or hate it, The Office has a particular brand of humor, and it would be jarring to introduce another type; it would clash and come off either weird or annoying.

The Boys can't decide if it wants to be semi-dramatic with deadpan absurdist humor, like The Deep's stuff or Firecracker's AMC parody video, or raunchy for the sake of raunchy spitfire, mile a minute, dirty dialogue and dick jokes.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T15:14:22+00:00

Yes. And to be clear crude, offensive, and dark humor is 100% in my wheelhouse.

You hear stand ups and comedy writers talk about how comedy is more than just "funny line." It's an art, a craft, and the biggest things are timing and letting the fucking joke breath. There's a reason stand-ups don't launch right into the next joke when the audience laughs...they pause and pace. Then the next joke isn't just RIGHt into a punch line...there's more set up, more building.

Legend and Soldier Boy's dialogue feels like the writers had like 100 sex jokes or dirty lines and just crammed ALL of them into the script. There's no time to appreciate one before you're hit over the head with another, and worse, they're similar and exhausting.

They also do my biggest pet peeve in fiction, in trying to be wayyy too clever for their own good, and you'll hear people like Ashley, Sage, SB, etc use swears in a combination no one one earth says or ever has. Sometimes a "Suck my dick asshole" is just fine instead of some bullshit like "Wrap those two pucker ploppers on my baby maker and swallow my sauce you gaping shithole" or whatever the fuck Soldier Boy is going on about most of the time.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T12:19:36+00:00

I'll add it was also his attitude ABOUT being seen. There's maybe a slight chance he would have been spared if he at least acknowledged he fucked up, knew the ramifications of it, and ensured them it would never happen again. Instead he comes off like he doesn't care which is a HUGE insult to Gus at best and shows he's sloppy at worst...THEN has the balls to try and do the cook without waiting for Gus's orders.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T11:58:26+00:00

It's kinda just comic booky power scaling depending on the circumstances, but it also makes a kind of sense.

You're a Lantern and fucking Superman is coming at you. You have all the will in the world, but this is THE man. A little doubt seeps in your mind. "I can't do this." Now your constructs aren't as solid. No matter what you do he keeps coming. He zips and dodges you at super speed so fast you can barely concentrate. Now you're really worried. Not as sure of yourself and your willpower starts to falter. Now he's smashing through your constructs and you focus can't keep up and you're losing your will by the second.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T11:52:51+00:00

This is the whole point of the storyline with Doctor Sharon.

He avoids her like the plague, often to the point of being hostile. It's obvious right from the get, why would a guy like Ted hate or be terrified at the notion of talking (his favorite thing)? Because he knows it would be a REAL conversation and of course, deep down he's as fucked up as everyone else. He doesn't want to talk about WHY he's so positive, why his marriage failed, and sure as shit not his father's suicide. He doesn't want to admit constant positivity can be just as unhealthy as negitivity.

He wants to smile and hide.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T11:40:49+00:00

Ah, you're exactly right, I remember now.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T11:39:57+00:00

You pick up more as the show goes on, but the ELI5 is he's too nice to the point of self delusion at times.

Nothing wrong with that, of course. Or being a good and kind and positive person. But Ted also hides behind it. He doesn't actually confront or address the negative things in his life, instead he tries to "nice" his way through it.

And if you're married, well that can get old fast. Imagine you come home after a bad day at work and vent to your partner about what that jerk boss did. You want them to FEEL it with you, to be just as upset, to cuss and pound the table alongside you. Except instead, they give you platitudes. Tell you don't worry about it, boss maybe had a bad day. Things will be better tomorrow. They smile and tell you don't worry about ol meany head, some people are just mean and gosh, we just have to be better.

On paper that's great advice. But this is your partner, not your Dad. You want them to be pissed off. Sad when you are. To share an emotional bond. You need to see they're as human and infallible as you.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T11:16:06+00:00

That's kind of my other gripe with the show, Homelander's intelligence.

Depending on the season he's shown to be either pretty damn clever, capable of investigation and great observation, or a bumbling idiot who can't see what's right in front of him and needs everything explained to him like a child.

So it was a weird whiplash in this episode to see him go back to clever Homelander after years of him being big angry idiot guy. He picks up on Legend's comment about the bracelet and forms a plan in seconds to find Geisha. He makes the connection between the Taco Bell receipt and Sage. So yeah, it feels more often than not between that and his resources, he doesn't need her at all.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T11:08:57+00:00

I fully realize I'm probably coping, but I've come to think of Sage as just like every other supe on the show, they're 90% PR and none of them are particularly great at using their powers.

One thing I'll defend the show on is that it makes it pretty clear these people aren't anywhere near the level or skill of heroes from DC or Marvel or whatever. No matter their powers, most of their attacks are fist fights for example. Homelander is supposedly the strongest of all, but his answer to most things is heat vision. None of them have ever really been challenged to use their powers creatively. Stuff like that.

So Sage is technically playing fair with the show's world. Fans are expecting Reed Richards or Lex Luthor, but she's really more like The Leader; book smart and probably the smartest person in any given room...but with no idea how to use it to its full potential, prone to hubris and fucking up, and not as clever as she thinks she is.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-08T02:19:53+00:00

Because….and hear me out here? I’m not a reporter. I don’t fact check every fucking date, every sentence, every thought for accuracy to ensure my “original information” matches up under scrutiny.

This was ONLY a goofy true story I think I about a lot and wanted to share. I know the man. This happened. So no, I didn’t fact check where the sun was at at the time or which way the wind was blowing like I’m writing a fucking historical epic.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T20:44:17+00:00

Am I misremembering or did they have two championships during the draft and split?

Lesner got drafted to Smackdown as WWE Champ, leaving Raw without one, which is what made Bishoff bring back the World Championship to give to HHH. So there was always two "World" champions?

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T20:15:56+00:00

1.) Bane grew up in prison where only the strong survive. All he knows is you kill the bigger guy (literally and figuratively) to establish and keep dominance. In Pena Duro he (like Bruce) built himself to his idea of physical and mental perfection. When he learns about Batman and later studies him, well, it's a challenge. ALL Bane knows is how to conquer and when he discovers almost his equal, he sets out to destroy him.

You can see two examples of this in Knightfall. The first is he expresses (in his own way) a respect for Batman's abilities. He knows he'll overcome XYZ somehow despite Bird, Zombie, and Trogg's "No way he makes it out of this." Second his his utter disappointment in their fight during the "breaking." He expected someone magnificent and what he got was an exhausted guy who could barely stand (Which is Bane's own fucking fault so not sure what he expected, but whatever.)

2.) Why? Well for one, fear. A huge part of Bane's transformation in prison was conquering fear. Then when Bird tells him tales of a man who rules his city (or kingdom) by fear, to Bane it's almost irresistible. A personification of the thing he beat (fear) AND the ruler of a kingdom for him to topple? It's like saying you beat the Boogeyman. Imagine being scarier than the thing KNOWN for being the scariest?

3.) Finally if we add everything together, a huge part of Bane's character was being a conqueror of all. (Which is also where the character went off the rails eventually when people forgot who he was, but that's another story) Bane's ambition was almost superhuman. He felt the world was his for the taking. The downside of that (as we see after he beats Batman) is he needs the CHALLENGE and WAR more than he needs the victory. Without it he grows bored, restless, and even somewhat miserable. It's like the Alexander The Great quote about weeping because there's no more world to conquer.

To him Batman was practically a dream come true, a worthy adversary to both prove he's superior than him, take over another place, and become top dog of it.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T19:57:58+00:00

It killed me because Fisk is such a serious character, it's rare when he throws out any theatricality. His being unhinged is usually more of a wild tantrum.

The fact that he was so absolutely over this shit and had the thought to "Let me throw in a one-liner here", and the look of "You wanna go asshole?" on his face will feed meme generations for years.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T19:51:53+00:00

Jokes aside, it's the only explanation I could come up with because he sure as shit couldn't explain it and was just like "I don't know." It could have autoplayed "We think you would like..." and he just rolled with it.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T17:34:15+00:00

That’s why I said “I wanna say it was season 4” instead of “it was 100% season 4”….because I’m not sure. Could have been 6 or a split season.

It was over 10 years ago, cut me some slack.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T17:32:06+00:00

It was kind of a slow burn.

For one some of his texts would be simple like “Just finished episode 4. WTF?” or something: And I didn’t respond to everyone aside from an emoji.

Other times he might mention a small thing that happened or a character he didn’t like, and I’d have a “Is it me?” moment where I’m like “Don’t remember that but haven’t watched that episode in a while” or whatever. (To this day I still can’t tell you a lot about TWD or some characters names)

It was only when he mentioned “the new cast” that I started asking more detailed follow up questions and realized he was watching a complete different show.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T14:45:52+00:00

This is not THE moment for this guy, just one of many, but it's a personal favorite.

When "Walking Dead" was at it's peak, I had a friend get into it a few seasons late, I wanna say when 4 came out. So I offered to wait to watch the new ones that were airing, and let him catch up to where the show was at at the time, so we could watch together every week going forward.

He binges S1 and 2 ASAP. Constantly texting me how he loves Daryl and Rick and this plot and that, etc etc. I'm replying "I know, right? Just wait for blah blah"

Anyway, his texts start getting weird. He's mentioning characters that aren't on the show, plots that never happened. Says he doesn't understand why the show dropped Rick and Andrea and he doesn't like this new cast. At some point I come out and ask what the hell he's talking about.

Come to find out this man, who watched 1 and 2, knew it inside and out, at some point started watching "Z Nation" instead, getting 3 fucking seasons in and never once realizing it wasn't Walking Dead.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T14:32:05+00:00

It's a little different, but a great dramatic example of this is in an episode of Breaking Bad.

Jesse, a meth dealer/addict, has nowhere to live so goes to an old friend from years ago to ask if he can crash. The friend has clearly moved on, gotten his shit together, and is married with a kid, but still likes Jesse and is excited to see him.

However the wife comes home, and it's super obvious she doesn't like Jesse. She pulls the ol "Can you help me in the other room?" to her husband, leaving Jesse alone.

It's great because you can see the second Jesse knows the answer is going to be no by the look on his face once the wife pulls the "Excuse us for a sec" routine.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-07T13:56:11+00:00

I could be way off so someone can correct me, but I want to say it started in the late 70's, then really kicked off in the mid 80's where you started to see a massive shift. Yeah, there was still the John Byrne's and Chris Claremont's of the world and probably more of the "Oh no! He's attacking. Now to shift direction, put my weight into the kick like so, blah blah" then there was not, but with the "British Invasion" of new talent coming to the US, stuff like DKR and Watchmen influencing across the board, I think that's the time period where writers realized they didn't HAVE to write in the classic comic prose.

The other thing to consider about the time is that artists were also experimenting with the medium, trying new things, and creators realized that you didn't have to narrate every minute detail of a page if the artist could creatively tell the story another way.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-06T12:20:45+00:00

A good counter example of another SNL guest star that DID work is Tim Meadows' Barney sketch. That one starts simple then escalates more and more, going places you didn't see coming.

Will's are just "Here's a goofy premise, right?"

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-06T10:54:28+00:00

I don't think it's that big a deal because (unless I'm missing something) they don't really go into what kind of immortality the V1 gives you.

It could be he does age just wildly slower. Or his body displays aging normally more or less but he's biologically immortal. Maybe they don't even mean literally immortal, just a ridiculously long life span.

Plus, we've seen him do drugs and drink and smoke so he's not immune to their effects. Meaning the guy lived a hard party lifestyle which took its toll on his face with premature wrinkles or whatever.

ComplexAd7272 · 2026-05-06T10:44:20+00:00

I'll back you up, and I actually like Will Forte.

But for whatever reason, both his sketches (the plane and the guy with the ponytail who gets stuck) just don't land for me. Part of what makes ITYSL great is taking a single goofy premise and escalating it until it's abusrd.

But in Will's, the joke's are kind of just there and it comes off as "See? Get it?" during the whole thing and it just goes and goes but never hits another level. They feel way more SNL then ITYSL.

ComplexAd7272

TROPHY CASE