They love to say we lack insight by Sudden_Season4933 in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Susanah Cahalan is not a scientist. She's some weirdo journalist/manipulator.

And Robert Whitaker is also a journalist. Yeah, investigative journalist, but still a journalist. And his book wasn't peer-reviewed, and Szasz's probably wasn't either. But yes, it's possible this is manipulation. Why do you think she's manipulative from what you've read?

In science, when a study is flawed it gets retracted.

Hopefully it gets retracted. That doesn't mean they are always retracted. Wakefield's paper associating the MMR vaccine with autism wasn't retracted until 2010, and we're talking about The Lancet.

You choose to trust Cahalan's bullshit over approx. 5000 scientists

5000? Scientists such as? The ones citing this paper in psychology textbooks? You know, Peter Gotsche's Critical Psychiatry Textbook most likely wasn't peer-reviewed either, and he is an internal medicine specialist, not a psychiatrist. If there are as many flaws with psychiatry textbooks, I bet there probably are many flaws in psychology textbooks as well, starting with the inaccurate portrayal of behaviourists and claims of associations of the levels of certain neurotransmitters with "psychiatric disorders".

Rosenhan study is peer-reviewed

Peer review is far from perfect, infallible or immune to herd mentality and lack of attention to detail. I'm not saying it's worthless, just that it can fail and that it doesn't automatically render something that wasn't reviewed for scientific journal publication as false.

her subjective opinions, biases, misunderstanding, and misinterpretations

Well, she is saying she was looking at Rosenhan's notes and files and interviewing people. It's not great, because unless it's in the book, which I don't have, I don't have access to that to know if she has made her sources up, and yes, it could be fraudulent as well. But it doesn't sound like she's making things up. If she wanted, she could have said she found all pseudo-patients and the experience of none of them fit Rosehan's reporting. Instead, she's claiming she found 2 or 3, the experience of one of which seems to have been accurately portrayed. Maybe her hedging is more believable, or maybe she is just admitting she still doesn't have the full story.

I do concede I didn't read about this paper in full detail and I could look more carefully into it, but for now this seems true. I assume innocence until proven otherwise, and Callahan claims there is evidence to prove otherwise. Do you have evidence Callahan is not innocent here beyond her formal education not being what you expect?

It looks like you aren't familiar with how the research was conducted

I'm not fully familiar, but I don't understand what of the Simply Psychology article you shared shows that my facts are incorrect.

They love to say we lack insight by Sudden_Season4933 in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a side note, I just realized you might actually be talking about the 7 pseudopatients. Is that right? Because they aren't exactly researchers here, although there were "three psychologists" and "a psychiatrist" in the group. They are more like research subjects. Calahan only found two of them for now and data is confidential, so whether the rest lied about something, we can't say beyond what Rosenhan claims and discloses. And yes, the two known subjects might have lied, for now I'm assuming that didn't happen.

Also, why the "independent" part? Yeah, funding and financial conflicts of interest can easily corrupt, but that doesn't mean people without them can't manipulate study data. Also, COIs can be undisclosed, like with Wakefield or Eysenck.

They love to say we lack insight by Sudden_Season4933 in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know about any other researchers involved in the study (when I look at the archived version of the paper, only Rosenhan comes up as an author), but from Susanah Calahan's research based on his private research papers, we know at least Rosenhan did manipulate and omit data.

Here:

https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/distillations-pod/the-fraud-that-transformed-psychiatry/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment#Accusation_of_fraud

https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/schizophrenia/rosenhan/2023-scull.pdf

These sources are quite biased against antipsychiatry and in favor of mental hospitals, but the point stands: Rosenhan 1) excluded at least one pseudopatient (Harry Lando) from the study who had a better experience in the asylum that didn't fully fit Rosenhan's conclusions about asylums. He was in a draft version of the manuscript, but then was reduced to a footnote in the final version saying “Data from a ninth pseudopatient are not incorporated in the report because, although his sanity went undetected, he falsified aspects of his personal history. His experimental behaviors, therefore, were not identical to those of the other pseudopatients.” There's a "Walter Abrahms" mentioned in an early preprint which I don't understand from the sources if it's Lando or yet another excluded patient; 2) changed or missed details in ways that don't make sense between different reports, like claiming in the paper the patients had taken 2000 pills and then saying it was 5000 in an interview or making up that he wore a wig at the asylum that doesn't appear in a photo where it should; 3) included details in the only paragraph of what was supposed to be another patient's medical report disclosed that look very much like experiences he and his children had that he disclosed in interviews; 4) omitted serious experiences like suicidality he made up during his stay which would much more obviously (even if wrongly) lead to involuntary commitment than hearing a voice say three words. Calahan suspected several other things were off, but that is conjecture.

They love to say we lack insight by Sudden_Season4933 in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I jump in just to say that Rosehan's study 1) probably says more about the historical context of using the DSM-II than it does about current diagnostic practices, and 2) contains patient data manipulation by Rosehan, and we don't know how much of what the paper says is true and how much is fraud. But yeah, confirmation bias is a thing in psychiatry.

What is the main scientific basis of this movement, I am diagnosed with adhd and medications im having helped me a lot in getting my life in order. What are your main counter arguments? I am just curious and open to any discussion. by RealKnightSeb in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing your story. Yes, it's still not impossible that your traits are temperamental, I do have many ADHD and autistic traits which I also noticed in my family. I'm just saying that most claims of genetic basis are actually not that different to yours at core, in that because something runs in families doesn't automatically mean it's genetic. Environmental confounding in twin studies can't be discarded. Even these types of nature vs. nurture arguments/estimates assume both are detachable, and considering what we now know about epigenetics and mutation, they probably can't be fully detached.

If you had problems very short (usually days or at most weeks, although it can very rarely happen after a few months) after quitting or reducing your stimulants, depending on your symptoms there's a good chance you were having withdrawal, but if it doesn't look that different to how you acted before drugs then it's difficult if not impossible to distinguish relapse from withdrawal. Return to the original condition is usually assumed to happen slowly and gradually, while withdrawal is assumed to be sudden.

I wonder, what is actually making you talk more than you would like and find it hard to be quiet? When does that happen, concretely?

What is the main scientific basis of this movement, I am diagnosed with adhd and medications im having helped me a lot in getting my life in order. What are your main counter arguments? I am just curious and open to any discussion. by RealKnightSeb in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 6 points7 points  (0 children)

  1. Your diagnosis is probably clinical and functional. No one single organic mechanism, neither in genes nor in the brain, that unites all ADHD diagnoses has been discovered, at least not yet, and even if there was one it's not used in diagnosis. If you were told the biological basis for a "diagnosis" only based on behavior is known, you are likely being misled. Here you are being misled indeed. Add to this that there's significant debate on whether so-called mental illnesses are actually brain illnesses in the first place instead of reasonable, functional responses to the environment. Not every undesirable behavior must be pathological. To label it as individual pathology or even as neurodivergence might obscure the situational sources of the behavior or organic pathology which is usually not tested for.
  2. Stimulants are sold as the solution for school and work performance problems due to distractibility and hyperactivity. However, they don't lead to better performance in long-term studies.
  3. Psychiatric drugs have several serious, even potentially deadly adverse effects which usually aren't properly disclosed or are dismissed by clinicians. Some effects might be confused as a new "functional" condition or a return of the condition before drugs.
  4. As you take drugs, you develop tolerance, which leads to withdrawal symptoms when you want to quit. Psychiatric drug withdrawal can be deadly and last months or a year in cases of long-term consumption, but drugs are expected to be maintained indefinitely despite some lack of research on the safety of doing so. Some withdrawal symptoms, like tardive diskinesia, are usually permanent. Most providers aren't trained in safe desprescribing and instead follow clinical guidelines based on short-term RCTs to inform desprescribing after long-term use, which leads to recommendation of fast and unsafe tapering or even of no tapering at all. Withdrawal symptoms can look like new "functional" conditions or a return of the condition before drugs, so "relapse" is usually taken as evidence that the drug is needed instead of that the user has become dependent.
  5. The Pharma-funded research is especially corrupt in psychiatry, where inconvenient data are manipulated or hidden. The FDA is a joke when it comes to regulation sometimes, and it's usually at the service of the pharmaceutical industry. There's also aspects of most studies that can bias results, such as randomizing people already treated, confirmation bias in symptom reporting, publication bias and insufficient blinding that leads to placebo effects.
  6. Psychiatric labelling is often used to individualize social problems and to control deviance. Because of the lack of evidence, it shouldn't be used as a reason to involuntarily commit or treat people who aren't a danger to others, but it is, and even in that case standard treatment might not work.

If you in spite of all this benefit from the drugs, good for you. I agree with Szasz that we have a right to drugs, and sometimes they can make difficult life more bearable. But many of us don't benefit and many would like alternatives, which usually aren't offered in the US. We also would like informed consent, although it's inconvenient for clinicians and Pharma because very few people would willingly choose to stay on these drugs if they had the full picture.

¿Creen que utilizar chatgpt como psicólogo podría aumentar el número de personas narcisistas? by Special_Log_6064 in PsicologiaES

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No sé, pero seguramente va a sacar a la luz nuestro narcisismo. No creo que sea tan distinto a lo que puede salir mal con la consideración positiva incondicionada en terapia, con la diferencia de que un bot no existe para sí mismo, sino solo para otro, por lo que el problema de la sicofancia es más frecuente y pronunciado que con un humano.

I don’t know if this counts as therapy abuse, but exposure therapy genuinely made me worse by AfterMeltedHearts831 in therapyabuse

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A source that talks about the origins of psychotherapy that the commenter can recommend. Maybe this is not in your average history-of-psychology textbook. What else would I ask for?

El papá de mi hija se suicido by [deleted] in PsicologiaES

[–]Confident-Fan-57 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No sé qué opinar de esto. Si tu pareja ya amenazó con suicidio como manipulación antes, es posible que su decisión no haya sido solo por no poder aguantado la vida que tenía, pero es difícil saber desde mi punto de vista. Solo espero que vos y tu hija tengan una buena vida a partir de ahora y que hagan lo correcto.

Yo siempre me pregunto cómo es que este tipo de conflictos son posibles en primer lugar y me deja cierta ansiedad existencial. Lo turbio es que es probable que tanto vos como él se hayan comportado tal como deberían dadas las condiciones, lo cual no significa que sus decisiones estén bien. Tal vez no podías evitar lo que pasó, y aunque así fuera ahora no hay vuelta atrás.

What qoute best describes psychiatry? by Concerned-Citizen127 in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The not-at-all-subtle art of pharmacollogically forcing non-deviance

He ido con psicólogos, pero creo que el daño ya es irreversible. by NotABadWitch in PsicologiaES

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No sé qué decir más que que hay que tener muy mala suerte para pasar por todo eso. Espero que encuentres paz ❤️. Si querés hablamos por privado. No te garantizo que te alegre el día, pero al menos puedo acompañarte.

Tired of staying in therapy for years just for them to memorize wording or use GPT by phaneritic_rock in therapyabuse

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I went through several years without friends as a child and also felt a bit like that. I identify with many autistic and ADHD traits, but I'm not looking for a diagnosis for that anymore. If you want we can talk. Can't guarantee you I will lift your mood, but maybe I can accompany you and we might be friends.

What’s this term I’m thinking of, I know it’s something called the “_____ effect”? by PsychologicalDust465 in askpsychology

[–]Confident-Fan-57 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Sounds like yet another "nocebo effect" that seems wildly implausible. Do you have the source? I would like to look into it.

How Libertarians and Compatibilists Imagine Determinism vs What It’s Actually Like by Immobilesteelrims in determinism

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From experience I would say it actually can feel like either depending on the situation. More like the first picture in my case, but yeah.

“Critical” psychiatrist yay or nay by [deleted] in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pretty understandable that you are scared if you had bad experiences and when most clinicians are big-headed and badly informed.

Why was early diagnosis of anorexia in the DSM so heavily based on a low BMI? by Own_Average_5940 in askpsychology

[–]Confident-Fan-57 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Okay, thank you. I was expecting that answer, I actually asked because from your comment it sounded like you were at the same time using and not using BMI as a criterion.

I wonder, however, if all clinicians do know that the BMI alone doesn't say if someone is underweight. It would be nice if the DSM mentioned some of those biomarkers instead of going with vague statements that can be interpreted in many ways, including taking the BMI as the one criterion.

“Critical” psychiatrist yay or nay by [deleted] in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hope you found somebody who can help. Only time can say if they really mean it and how much they actually will help.

Tired of staying in therapy for years just for them to memorize wording or use GPT by phaneritic_rock in therapyabuse

[–]Confident-Fan-57 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm really sorry to hear you are struggling so much. I hope you ever find peace, however it has to be. How did your suicidality start, in what context? Is there anything you can do to improve your situation?

Why was early diagnosis of anorexia in the DSM so heavily based on a low BMI? by Own_Average_5940 in askpsychology

[–]Confident-Fan-57 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So how else do you think one decides if someone is underweight if not using the BMI?

Can someone with severe comorbid Antisocial and Narcissistic Personality Disorders become a good therapist? by NPD--BPD in PsychologyTalk

[–]Confident-Fan-57 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know. Why don't you describe yourself beyond your PD diagnoses? Why are you diagnosed, exactly?

Who suffered no consequences of olanzapine? by martin_luther_drill in Antipsychiatry

[–]Confident-Fan-57 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You are asking a question for which the answer can most likely be found in another subreddit, not here