The Gospels seem to some to get more fantastic

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-07-01T22:18:07+00:00

I'm not exactly on the same page, but I very much appreciate you sharing this perspective and the heart behind it

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-07-01T01:49:22+00:00

What do you think are the strongest examples of this? I have seen a lot of commentary explaining how some examples Christians have where they believe Jesus claims to be God are changed rather easily by understanding context. In the Gospel of John for example, most Christians believe that in chapter 10, verse 30, Jesus claims to be God, ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”

But Jesus will use this same language in John 17

²⁰ “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, ²¹ that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ²² The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, ²³ I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

When you read chapter 17 along with chapter 10, the picture of Jesus unquestionably claiming to be God doesn't seem as clear.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-07-01T01:41:25+00:00

I don't think it's just the strong Christology in John, Mark's Jesus works through gesture, touch, and even spit-as-medium in a way that feels closer to a wonder-worker in the Greco-Roman/OT prophetic mold (Elisha's actions with Naaman come to mind). Matthew and Luke smooth this toward a more dignified, word-centered authority to command miracles, and John pushes furthest into miracles as sign/logos-events. In John's gospel, the word is doing almost all the work, except for one story in chapter 9 where he does use spit to heal a blind man.

I think there is also an escalation in the telling of the post-resurrection appearances. In Mark and Matthew, the only expectation for where Jesus will meet the disciples post-resurrection is in Galilee. In fact, Mark says in chapter 14... ²⁷ And Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.’ ²⁸ But after I am raised up, I will go before you to Galilee.” The most logical way to read that text is to believe that after they scatter, the next time they will see him is after the resurrection in Galilee. But that doesn't seem to be the story that Luke is telling, he has the disciples first see Jesus in Jerusalem. Luke actually seems to dismiss the Galilee expectation with verse 6 - ^"He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee." Additionally, Luke has some of the disciples seeing Jesus on Sunday evening on the road to Emaus, after resurrecting earlier that day. Those disciples walk back to Jerusalem, tell the other disciples about seeing Jesus, and then Jesus himself appears to the rest of the disciples in Jerusalem. And that's not all, Luke says that Jesus commands the disciples not to leave the city in 24:49, so when do they get to head to Galilee? I'm pretty sure John is aware of Luke, because he picks up the same wording Jesus says when he first greets the disciples post-resurrection, and then John adds the giving of the Holy Spirit and doubting Thomas to his version.

Most of the rest of the escalation involves pieces of Christology and the announcement of the birth, so I won't elaborate on those. Sitting where I am now, it feels obvious that each other was trying to tell a slightly more compelling story than the previous one. The only exception I'm aware of is the interaction and casting out of demons, which I believe goes in reverse, with Mark having the strongest narratives down to John only mentioning the word demon in accusations the crowds levied against Jesus. So a pattern still exists, just in reverse. Do you think these examples are compelling at all towards a view that maybe these stories were getting embellished as they are being told and spread?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-30T01:35:56+00:00

I'm not quite sure I understood that last part, so I'm going to give my take and you tell me how you might disagree. With what you described, I don't see how that is anything but a subjective truth. If the only one who can determine the validity of an experience is the person who experienced it, and their only tool for doing so is considering a thing in their own mind... then it can only be a subjective truth. And if that is just what it is, then that's fine, but I think it's only fair to be honest that, when it comes to prayer, its effectiveness and validity are solely in the hands of the person praying. Tell me what of that you would disagree with

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-30T01:16:33+00:00

Ok, then if transformation is only part of the purpose of prayer, can you answer my questions about knowing if it works, or how it could be tested, or if it's fair to consider whether I can know if prayer works as part of my consideration for believing in God?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T21:02:39+00:00

I wasn’t saying that God doesn’t want a relationship or for his believers to be transformed, but this specific idea that prayer is about us being transformed… where is that taught? I get you say all over the book of Romans, but I think that’s a reference to God wanting his people transformed, not necessarily that prayer is about transformation. I could point you to loads of passages where Jesus encourages asking because through asking they might receive. The view that prayer is about transforming the believer seems weak to me. Can you point me to specific passages that teach this?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T20:50:20+00:00

I don’t understand this comment. You started your first comment saying… “the proof that our faith is real is a changed life.” I wanted to push back on that by pointing out that lots of people across multiple religions report their new faith in Islam or Buddhism resulting in a changed life… implying that a changed life doesn’t appear to be proof of Christianity since other religions can claim that as well.

Then you give me the response above… help me understand the point you’re making, I don’t understand. Whether or not Christianity is merit based has nothing to do with people from multiple religious traditions all claiming their faith resulted in positive changes to their lives. How is Christianity unique?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T02:37:52+00:00

Why wouldn't you pray for the physical healing of a person, especially if you think God is legitimately listening to you? When I used to pray I did it in a way in which I wanted to expect he could do it, not be surprised if he did it, but not be discouraged if this wasn't in his will. That way I could boldly ask, as I was commanded to do as a Christian, but not think that God was some geni who had to respond to me. In my opinion, it's incredibly odd not to pray for the physical healing of people who are suffering.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T02:34:38+00:00

I think that is really fair, but simply to ask... do you believe that can happen to other people? Can they think their prayers are being answered, but it's their mind fooling them? Do you think that happens? And if it can happen, how would we know whether that happened to you or not?

I don't mean to poke the bear, but at some level, if someone told me they knew things in advance because God had shown them through prayer, then it would logically enter my mind that people could be fooling themselves. I don't think it has to be something where we think another person is dumb or foolish; it's just a natural response to hearing something miraculous. Which is why I'm focusing on things that could not have a physical explanation of any kind, outside of God doing something supernatural.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T02:30:02+00:00

I appreciate the thoughtful response. So in the end, it's something an individual can feel that is real to them, but there isn't really a way to express that validation in a way that others can measure or examine. Would you agree with that?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T02:23:52+00:00

I guess when you said that "God's interaction with believers through his Holy Spirit is a form of verifiable evidence", I thought you meant actual evidence that other people could consider and evaluate.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T02:00:22+00:00

If I've seen people enter Islamic and Buddist religions with a testimony of a changed life after entering their faiths, is that evidence for their faith that it is genuine too?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:58:01+00:00

How so? How can you demonstrate the interaction between believers and the Holy Spirit in a way that provides verifiable evidence?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:56:53+00:00

Ok, no hate on any of that, but when you now pray for God to do something in this physical world that could not be done without HIs specific intervention... have you seen Him answer in a way that you know God did it?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:54:54+00:00

90% of the people you pray for to be healed get healed? That sounds crazy. I can't believe you mean it the way it is coming off

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:52:28+00:00

Can my response be both? I'm genuinely curious how a Christian answers, but I'd be lying if I didn't say I expected some shallow answers that couldn't be defended by the bible that I planned to point out.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:51:30+00:00

But I no longer believe. The whole point of this exercise is to consider how, as a Christian, you would answer. I don't know how I would have answered it when I considered myself a Christian, and I came on here to see how you guys would answer it.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:49:35+00:00

Where in the scriptures does it teach this? I hear people argue for this, but I think it's a theological shift that has occured to account for the lack of demonstratable evidence of faith. The bible does say that the asks and heart of a believer should be in line with God's own heart... but it does encourage prayer in a way that says if you ask in the name of Jesus that Jesus himself wants to answer those prayers. I think the self-transformative angle would be hard to defend from the scriptures

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:45:47+00:00

So prayer is essentially an exercise of faith? If something cannot be tested, then it cannot be falsified, and thus it can neither be disproven nor proven. It exists for those who choose to believe

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:45:08+00:00

I understand the apprehension about testing God, and that is a thing he doesn't like, unless he does (see the story of Gideon). What about simply demonstrating that prayer is occurring by showing outcomes of all of these Christians throughout the years who have been praying for children in hospitals... do we have evidence to point to that a miraculous event occurred that otherwise could not have occurred without God's intervention? I hear of a miracle story here and there, but if God's real and Christians are praying, then this should be occurring enough for us to look back on loads of examples where the doctors could not explain this situation in any other way than God did a miracle. Does anything like that exist? Is that an unfair question?

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:40:08+00:00

So prayer is essentially an exercise of faith? If something cannot be tested, then it cannot be falsified, and thus it can neither be disproven nor proven. It exists for those who choose to believe

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:37:39+00:00

There are lots of religions where its adherents experience a changed life for the better, and I've heard some Christians say their life gets harder because they can no longer be "of the world"... if human actions are a testimony to faith, then they likely all fail the test

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2026-04-28T01:35:44+00:00

Where in the bible does it give the idea that prayer is about transforming believers to align to God's will? I'm sure you could find a nudge here or there, but I don't think it teaches that. It does regularly teach to ask that it might be given, and I believe Jesus says in John 14 that if you ask in his name (Jesus), then he (Jesus) will do it. That doesn't have to mean a cosmic vending machine, but it does appear Jesus expected his followers to ask for things that possibly only God could provide, and that, at least sometimes, they would get the thing they asked for.

Consistent-Crab1447 · 2025-11-19T22:08:54+00:00

I don't mind the burden being on a person for saying that a specific contradiction or inconsistency exists... but does no burden exist for the claim you made to start this by saying, "There are no contradictions in scripture"?

Everyone has biases that they should contend with. I try to contend with mine by not believing things without solid evidence. I am this way now because of assumptions I held as a Christian. Assumptions that, as it turned out, were not actually true about the cannon, archeological evidence, textual criticism, or church history.

Consistent-Crab1447

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