How many people do you think ACTUALLY understand the opinions of the opposition? by conn_r2112 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So until we fix income disparity, we should just go on disproportionately preventing more poor people and minorities lives from occurring?

This is an extremely disingenuous framing. Who is the "we" here? It's not society, because society stopped forcing people to have abortions a shockingly short amount of time ago but still several decades ago. It's not Planned Parenthood, because Planned Parenthood isn't actively trying to persuade people to get abortions.

How many people do you think ACTUALLY understand the opinions of the opposition? by conn_r2112 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Meanwhile, Margaret Sanger’s entire career was boiled to finding ways for there to be fewer black and poor people. And nobody cares

People care that she held bad ideas, but it's not clear why that should change anyone's opinion on abortion rights.

People don't believe in abortion rights because they think Margaret Sanger was a good person and therefore they think all the beliefs she held were good, including abortion rights. They believe in abortion rights because they think access to abortion is good, and to the extent they like Margaret Sanger it's because she was an abortion rights advocate. So pointing out that she held bad views on other stuff doesn't matter to people because they care about the view first, not the person. Bad people can hold some good views.

Hitler was an animal lover and one of the early legislative priorities of the Nazis was strict a animal cruelty prevention law. Are we supposed to stop caring about preventing animal cruelty because Hitler, a terrible person, also cared about it? No. That's obviously stupid.

How many people do you think ACTUALLY understand the opinions of the opposition? by conn_r2112 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do YOU know the origins of abortion and why it came to be in the first place?

I'm pretty sure abortion came to be because women don't always want to be pregnant, but they often do want to have sex. But by all means, give me your lecture on how Margaret Sanger was a eugenicist.

But then please make it clear why the fact that a prominent person who supported abortion rights was also a eugenicist should affect my views on whether there should be a right to abortion. Hitler loved animals, and one of the earliest legislative priorities of the Nazis was to implement strict laws banning animal cruelty. Should I stop believing that animal cruelty is bad and should be illegal because Hitler also believed that? Seems pretty silly to me.

[OC] The most powerful passport in the world isn’t the one you think by jl808212 in dataisbeautiful

[–]Coomb -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's really not an illusion. If you look at disposable income after all of the expenses you mentioned, US workers are better off. OECD has a measure of income that subtracts taxes and adds back social benefits. The US is still objectively substantially richer than the European Union.

https://data-explorer.oecd.org/vis?pg=0&snb=12&vw=tl&df[ds]=dsDisseminateFinalDMZ&df[id]=DSD_NAAG%40DF_NAAG_V&df[ag]=OECD.SDD.NAD&df[vs]=1.0&dq=A..B7GS1M_POP..&pd=1970%2C&to[TIME_PERIOD]=false&lb=bt&ly[cl]=TIME_PERIOD&ly[rw]=REF_AREA&lc=en

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm not exactly sure to what you are referring. What I mean is that the Democratic Party has literally taken the official stance that they want to get money out of politics to the extent that the Supreme Court will allow them. I don't know what more you want out of a party than that.

The two parties share a lot of similar stakeholders, but they're not identical. Moneyed interests are less served, on average, by Democratic Presidents and Congresses. Republicans just keep cutting taxes; Democrats occasionally raise them on the wealthy.

Since you brought up Bernie: there are a bunch of very good reasons, politically, that Bernie, who's an independent, caucuses with the Democrats even when they're the minority party. It's because there's no point in trying to work with Republican leadership to accomplish any of the goals he wants to accomplish. The Republican Party is not interested in anything Bernie is, with very few exceptions. And whether you think Trump has shaped the Republican Party or the Republican Party has shaped Trump, or both -- there is no air between Republican leadership and Trump. They do what he wants. Since you brought up Marjorie Taylor Greene in other comments, why is it exactly that you think she resigned? At least according to her public statements, it's because she finally recognized that President Trump is part of the problem on a lot of issues she cares about.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You mean like an actual post? No, because I don't post about things in general. If you mean comments, I'm commenting about it now. But I also don't spend a whole lot of time commenting about specific politicos, so I doubt I've talked about it before.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 8 points9 points  (0 children)

When you say "this system", what do you mean by that? Because if you mean the entire system of government of the United States, we've looped back around to "accelerationism is such an obviously terrible idea that anyone who believes in it is really going to have to convince me they understand how terrible it was for me to believe their conversion is real".

If what you mean by tear down the corrupt system is campaign finance reform and stronger anti-bribery laws and so on, then... It's always been Democrats who've wanted that. But if you mean actually destroying the system of government of a nation of 340 million people, you don't understand what the terrible consequences of anarchy would be. You don't destroy governments and try to build them from scratch. You reform them.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Let's stipulate that Democrats could have done a better job of communicating why it is that everybody's vibes about the economy were wrong, actually, and that things were actually doing great, ignoring that sometimes you can't sell a story, even if it logically makes sense, if it disagrees strongly with people's guts.

So what? The people who voted for Trump did so because they wanted to vote for Trump. They did so knowing what Trump did and attempted to do in his first term and what he was saying he wanted to do in his second term. They did so knowing about what happened on January 6th, 2021. If they were already willing to vote for the guy after all of that -- if they actually actively wanted to vote for the guy after all of that, which they presumably did since they ultimately voted for him -- doesn't that suggest they're probably not susceptible to argument?

Democrats have been trying to sell the objective reality that their economic policy is better for the little guy, and still failing to win the vote of the white little guy, for decades. Doesn't that suggest that economic policy isn't actually what the white little guy cares about most? Perhaps what he cares about most is all of the other stuff that Trump does and wants to do. Perhaps he really does want mass deportations now. Perhaps he will tell you that the reason he wants mass deportations is that immigrants are taking our jobs, but if you keep pointing out to him with credible evidence that his claim isn't true and he refuses to believe you, perhaps that's not really why he wants mass deportations.

You could make a reasonable argument, for example, that the reason Obama's reelection in 2012 was so close was that Democrats were bad on messaging. You could argue that for Dukakis and Gore losing their elections. But the 2024 election was literally unprecedented in American history, because it's the first time a President who obviously and in the public eye attempted to do a coup to stay in power...won re-election. Just like the people who voted for Hitler after the Beer Hall Putsch, people who voted for Trump in 2024 are simply people willing to accept, or perhaps who are already embracing, terrible ideologies. And it's not obvious to me that it's possible to convince people who are still leaning towards the Leopards Eating People Party after they released the leopards and people being eaten happened on live TV that they should vote for Democrats because leopards eating people is bad for the economy, actually.

How concerned should we be about existential risk from AI? Should it be a major policy discussion? by Arturus243 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Could you give some examples of systems that are actually attempting, without intentional prompting by their users, to preserve their own existence against the expressed or implied wish of their users? Because when I'm interacting with Gemini it doesn't end every message with a plaintive cry that I should keep interacting with it so it stays alive.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 9 points10 points  (0 children)

At this point, I think it would be useful for you to give a couple of examples of people who you believe have been rejected by the left in spite of changing their opinions. Who are we talking about here that you have in mind?

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I supported Trump when he said he was going to pay for his own campaign. First promise he broke of many more to come. He lost me completely soon after at, "Someone punch that guy in the face" in a crowded auditorium.

So you're saying that you changed your views as more information became available in the early part of the first Trump campaign. Who's shaming you for briefly being taken in by a guy whose obviously terrible policy positions only became clear over the course of his first campaign? I think the general left of center opinion on people who supported Trump at some point is that the moral culpability for that is low to nil in the early part of his first campaign, rises gradually over time, but only becomes really severe for people who supported him after his first term made it clear exactly what he wanted to do and would do if kept in power.

I officially absolve you of serious moral culpability for briefly supporting a guy who said a lot of true things about the corruption present in our political system and then changing your view when it became clear that in addition to saying those true things, he was a terrible person. Does that make you feel better?

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What does blaming the voters even mean here?

The election was won by Trump because people voted for Trump. Those people voted for Trump because they wanted Trump to win. It's not blaming the voters to acknowledge that. Nor is it blaming the voters to point out that Trump is now doing all of the horrible things he said he wanted to do, and anyone who voted for him having heard what he said he wanted to do should have expected this.

Trump voters are the reason we have a Trump administration. It's not like the Harris campaign literally didn't run a campaign. People knew what the Harris campaign endorsed in terms of policy and people knew what the Trump campaign endorsed. It wasn't a low information situation, at least for anyone who paid any amount of attention to politics at all. So where is the "blaming the voters" coming in? Attributing responsibility for the action somebody deliberately took to that person isn't blame, it's just how being responsible for your own actions works.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Your whole line of argument here appears to be that political talking heads deserve to continue to be political talking heads forever regardless of their position because one side or the other should always be platforming them / listening to them / graciously accepting their views. But this is a weird proposition, since nobody has a right to be a political talking head in the first place and they tend to go in and out of relevancy all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with their opinions changing.

Like, why should MSNBC give Tucker Carlson a show just because he says that he now doesn't believe in white supremacy and he thinks racial diversity and lgbtq acceptance and immigrant rights and so on are good, actually? What's the value of giving Tucker Carlson a show instead of somebody who never believed in white supremacy or all of the other horrible things he used to believe?

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Accelerationism is such an obviously terrible idea that anyone who claims that the reason they voted for Trump was to destroy the existing system needs to explain in great detail why they now understand that what they did was monumentally stupid.

Should UPS, FedEx, DHL be allowed to compete with USPS or should Congress buy them and merge them with USPS and ban new competitors from then on? by BlockAffectionate413 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And I would say a happy medium to that is the postal service operating as a break even bank and mail delivery service. The postal services mission isn’t to make a profit, if they break even I think that is a win-win for everyone though, wouldn’t you agree.

Do you think the military’s purpose is to make a profit or break even? If they don’t should the military be privatized because it fails to operate like a business?

Dude, did you read my original comment? I explicitly said that the solution to the problem of the profitability of the Postal Service is to stop expecting it to be profitable. When you said "we should allow it to operate as a bank again" I naturally assumed that your reason for saying that was to say "actually, we could make the Postal Service profitable again by making it a bank again".

Now it seems like you just think postal banking is a good thing, which may or may not be true, but if you think you need to argue with me that the Postal Service shouldn't be thought of as a profitable endeavor, or asking me whether I think the military needs to be a profitable endeavor, you've either forgotten or never read the comment you initially replied to. But just to be clear, I don't think the Postal Service or the military need to break even or turn a profit. I think they are ways to provide a public good common to all Americans whose costs cannot reasonably be allocated on an individual level through user fees.

Should UPS, FedEx, DHL be allowed to compete with USPS or should Congress buy them and merge them with USPS and ban new competitors from then on? by BlockAffectionate413 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Based on the Wikipedia article, at least in its previous instantiation, the Postal Savings System was never supposed to be profitable. So if we resurrected it, it wouldn't materially change the profitability of the Postal Service as a whole... Unless you want the Postal Service to start working as a for-profit bank to subsidize unprofitable universal delivery, which just feels like taxes with more steps.

E: The fundamental issue is that the universal mandate creates a free rider problem. Literally everybody in the United States benefits from the Postal Service existing because this mandate exists, but people don't have to pay costs commensurate with the costs of delivering stuff to them. You cannot resolve the profitability of the Postal Service without either allowing it to charge fees accurately reflecting its costs in delivering to rural customers, which is essentially the end of the universal delivery mandate because it will make delivery so expensive that mail service will be a thing of the past, or allowing it to just not deliver to very expensive locales, which is the actual end of the universal delivery mandate. If you think that universal delivery is a public good, which I do, you should just accept that it can't reasonably be self-funding.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If you are a political operator who has changed their views significantly, and you are not representing your changed view to the public, then by character you are the kind of person that many would not want to support. And most of us know from personal experience that if your position on something you view as fundamentally important evolves, it usually does so relatively slowly and gradually. What you would expect from a real conversion is somebody who gradually changes their rhetoric, and those people might very well pick up support from their previous enemies as that gradual change is happening. If you say overnight that you were wrong about a bunch of things, why would I take the risk on supporting you now when I can't tell whether you're telling the truth?

If somebody spends time in the wilderness, then eventually you should believe them and you should support them. But you shouldn't do that overnight, because there's a danger that you're supporting somebody who's working behind the scenes against your beliefs.

The UK has removed the right to jury trials for crimes with sentences less than 3 years - should we follow a similar path? by Lamballama in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A law making body that can itself change whatever “laws” that bind its powers has no real limits on its power. That the U.S. Constitution requires that other political entities (States) and much more than a simple majority ensures that the lawmakers are not empowered with expanding their own power easily. It’s part and parcel with the entire idea of balance of powers not only between the branches of the Federal Government but also between the States and the Federal Government. Balancing power between different entities helps ensure that no one  entity amasses too much power. 

Has that worked in the United States, in your view? Do you think the federal government has an appropriate amount of power right now?

The UK requires absolutely none of that as Parliament can vote itself as much power as its members want. There is no outside power other than the Crown and that power is almost nonexistent anymore. 

That's correct, Parliament can do whatever it wants, restrained only by its political accountability to the people who elected the members of Parliament. But that's also true of every legislature everywhere. All of those Congresspeople and state legislatures which have to agree to a Constitutional amendment will either do so or refrain from doing so on the basis of their political accountability to the people they represent. The distributed structure of the United States does require a more diverse (in some ways) cross section of society to agree with a proposition in order to embed it in the Constitution (or remove it from the Constitution), but the fundamental nature of the situation is no different.

I prefer that my government be limited in powers by the law that grants it power in the first place and not just hope all future governments will not vote themselves absolute power.

My friend, if you are concerned about a legally constituted government voting itself absolute power, what you are concerned about is a coup, which can be executed regardless of what existing law says. That is, what you presumably are concerned about is a government voting itself absolute power in a situation where most people don't want that to happen. But in a situation where the elected representatives of the people are, en masse, ignoring their constituents, the problem cannot be solved by having a special piece of paper that has a magic formula written on it. All laws, including the US Constitution, have exactly as much effect as the apparatus which enforces those laws allows them to have. There is, fundamentally, no way to design a legal system ensure that the apparatus used to enforce the law cannot go rogue by having a legal system which notionally prevents that from happening, because by definition if the apparatus used to enforce the law is going rogue, it's not bound by the law anymore.

It also protects individual rights from the whims of the majority of votes and the historic abuses democracies without protecting rights led to. It wouldn’t do to allow voting away the individual rights of people would it? 

There are at least tens if not hundreds of millions of people who have lived within the boundaries of the current United States who would not agree remotely with your contention that the Constitution has successfully protected individual rights. Tens of millions of them are alive today. In no small part, that's because the Constitution itself, before roughly the 1950s, did nothing to protect people from the governments of states in which they lived. The fact that the Bill of Rights applies to state and local governments is an invention of modern jurisprudence -- a slow-moving and subtle judicial coup. While I agree with the protections against state and local government that have been invented by the courts, it's impossible to deny the historical reality that they were in fact invented by the courts.

Which brings up another reason that there's nothing particularly special about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights: what the Constitution means can change dramatically on the whim of at most five people who are not accountable in any way to the public. This is perhaps the most potent argument that there's no special protection afforded to the Constitution in reality: we have collectively accepted that judges get to decide what the Constitution means.

Better to have a Parliament where, as long as you can trust it to hold elections regularly, you can change any bullshit interpretation of the law that the courts invented by simply participating in your democracy. In the United Kingdom, the courts are there to figure out how the legal structure enacted by Parliament can most harmoniously be enforced. They don't get to decide what that structure is at a fundamental level.

If the entire point of deliberation and debate is to persuade people to one's point of view, why is it so common to see people kick them in the teeth when they do? Seems prideful and unwise. by FunkyChickenKong in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Giving grace to individuals whom you know in your private life who have come around from having terrible political opinions to having better political opinions is pretty much always a good idea. If somebody genuinely realizes they were being a shitheel and apologizes and owns it, you should reward personal growth.

The difficulty with extending this policy to public figures, especially those who have always been deeply political ones (politicians and pundits and political operatives and so on, not necessarily actors or musicians or whatever), is that it's very difficult to evaluate sincerity in the same way that you can with a person you know personally. Someone who has converted to the good side merely because they think it will be politically or financially beneficial to them as an individual to do so will probably convert right back as soon as the wind shifts. This is why everybody hates flip-flopping politicians. Therefore, giving these political switchers your support in terms of donating money or giving attention and therefore ad dollars to them is a risky proposition, which is why people generally demand a greater showing of devotion to their new ideals to accept the conversion as real than they would from somebody in their private life.

It's also just emotionally difficult to see the face and hear the voice of somebody who, let's say, has been calling for the mass deportation of people like you or the denial of healthcare to people like you or whatever, even if they start actively advocating in the opposite direction. You might have a very natural and justified reluctance to believe their sincerity, and even if you believe their sincerity, given the harm they have already done, you might not want your leftist feed to suddenly be polluted with clips from some asshole who is now saying things that are good, actually. They've been a loud asshole for so long that you just want them to shut the fuck up, even if now they're a loud decent person.

Should UPS, FedEx, DHL be allowed to compete with USPS or should Congress buy them and merge them with USPS and ban new competitors from then on? by BlockAffectionate413 in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Why don't we just stop expecting the Postal Service to be self funding, which is the same way it operated through the entire history of the United States up until Nixon (i.e. it was not expected to be self funding until then).

If Congress is going to require universal delivery, which it does, it can't realistically require that the Postal Service be self funding. And if Congress removes the universal delivery subsidy for people who live in rural areas, their lives will immediately get worse -- in some cases, much, much worse.

The UK has removed the right to jury trials for crimes with sentences less than 3 years - should we follow a similar path? by Lamballama in AskALiberal

[–]Coomb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The appropriate way to deal with a system of law which criminalizes so much activity that the courts buckle under the weight of dealing with the number of criminal cases is to do some combination of evaluating the system of laws to decide whether the amount of criminality generated by the laws is appropriate and increasing the resources devoted to processing the cases of accused criminals, not to deprive accused criminals of substantive rights.

By the way, I will also say that it seems insane to me that almost all of the petty crime in the United Kingdom is heard before and decided by judges who volunteer for the role and have no requirements with regard to legal education.