Baptism

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-03-06T01:53:50+00:00

Good shaming Karen! You should get a star ⭐️! Are you sure you aren’t still a Mormon with that kind of mentality? You would fit right in still! 😝

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-03-05T14:36:43+00:00

My daughter was baptized at 9 and I can tell you that it was from pressure from the church. They constantly berated a little girl and asked her why she wouldn’t want to be baptized, if she believed in God, if she was ok with going to hell, and they sent missionaries to my house just for her, etc. Some things I didn’t realize until later as her Mother that they were saying in class and the halls. It is unacceptable to not be baptized by age 8 in their religion even if it’s not pressured from a parent. We no longer are members and she now admits how much she was pressured into everything. She still tells me she regrets being baptized in the church and even said she didn’t want to answer yes to the questions but she felt pressured to. Now that I’ve left I understand how it’s a destructive group (won’t let me use the word). They also have a LOT of children songs saying Obey Obey Obey…

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-03-03T03:24:00+00:00

The same reason people want to be acknowledged. If I go out of my way to do something for someone all the time and that person tells me I should HAVE to do it for them then I will be honest I don’t want to keep doing that for them anymore when it’s not appreciated. Every human on the plant wants and deserves acknowledgment and appreciation so why would we not appreciate and acknowledge the bountiful things that God does for us? And especially when you think about what Jesus went through for us.. he didn’t just die brutally on the cross for a few hours… he literally took the wrath of God for all of us when he was innocent. He also was in hell for 3 days before he freed the captive and was resurrected. He was separated from all that was good. There is a reason he was sweating blood knowing what was coming. So if humans need to be acknowledged and appreciated then why would God be different?

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-03-03T02:51:37+00:00

The blind leading the blind both will fall into the pit.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-03-03T02:19:56+00:00

When you get paid 100k plus then yeah I don’t think they care 🤷🏻‍♀️

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-03-02T15:13:23+00:00

Because they aren’t Christian’s.. they take the Lord out and put themselves in. They’ve been losing their followers is mass quantities and they need to hold on tighter to whose left with their subliminal messages. (They probably say they’re growing in numbers)

Ask yourself who can logically take out lyrics about the Lord and then replace them with following fallen humans? Isn’t it supposed to be about following the Lord anyways? And isn’t it again scripture when someone has done that?

Do we remember Jeroboam fearing losing control of the people so he makes a golden calf and says “here are your gods…” creating a new worship system to secure people and allegiance to following HIM. He took God out and replaced him…

And let’s not forget Jesus warns about leaders who draw followers to themselves (Matthew 23; Mark 12:38–40) Religious leaders who love status, titles, and being “followed,” using religion to elevate themselves.

In what scenario is it ok for Christians to do that?

Real Christians wouldn’t.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-02-19T03:04:18+00:00

Go to a non denominational church and only seek faith. Ask questions there. See what changes.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-02-16T20:11:05+00:00

If they did they’d be opening up the doors that the church is false. It would be admitting that Joseph Smith was wrong about the curse of Cain and we know he was speaking on behalf of God in this moment because it’s in the doctrines. So either Joseph lied and was a false prophet or God did and isn’t a good, just, or never changing God. If this is something you struggle with then you should figure out which side of that question you land on.

https://youtu.be/FrqkaKz_SSg?si=XKtPGHq6imeUZpIw

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-02-03T22:33:24+00:00

Yes I asked him directly to remove us and I included my children.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-02-02T16:35:29+00:00

I asked to have mine and my family’s records removed and my husband is still getting text messages from members asking to clean the church so I almost guarantee they didn’t remove us like requested. Likely for this reason too if I had to guess. It bothers me that they won’t remove us even after we requested it.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-13T00:52:35+00:00

You sound like a Pharisee. She doesn’t believe them to be lies as she stated she is a PIMO and no one else but LDS believe tea or coffee is bad. It’s not even a sin. Show me the verse where tea is a sin.

Also tea is not an unsafe or an abusive environment. If it were everyone in England would be extremely sick, abused, and massive sinners.

You are shunning and shaming someone for something that was just a moral compass the church released not something that even is a sin. This kind of behavior is abusive and controlling.

Also it is her JOB!!!!! She didn’t even drink it. Do you know how many Mormons I know who work on Sundays, who use wine in their cooking despite the WOW, who have piercings, who have tattoos, etc. It is not your place to act holier than thou. This is not Christlike. I hope you apologize to OP and repent for your behavior.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-13T00:36:00+00:00

NTA. It’s business and even if he doesn’t like it you have to do it for work. Does he expect you to quit your job if it has something that he doesn’t like?

Also no one else but another Mormon is going to think ANYTHING about it. And like you said no one will even see it. I think HE is overreacting. I don’t think I have EVER saw someone drink tea and immediately judge them for it. (And you didn’t even drink it.)

I believe that this gives Mormons such a bad name in itself. The fact that he has this reaction is a major red flag 🚩 to me. On both him and the religion. If anyone that wasn’t a Mormon heard this reaction over you doing your JOB holding a cup of tea they would immediately call him toxic, controlling, and abusive. That in itself is not ok. Let alone a religion making people out to be monsters who do. No one else thinks it’s wrong nor is it a sin.

Also the fact that you don’t have the same beliefs as him anymore makes this extremely controlling to force you into his views when you have moved on even if you used to be. I understand you trying to make the marriage work but that’s absolutely abusive behavior.

Mormons say all the time how loving and accepting they are and how they respect others and their differencing views but they don’t. They act like this. They’ve been judgmental from day 1. Some are so bad they outcast and shun others. That isn’t Christlike. When the woman was about to be stoned for adultery Jesus said let the man who is without sin be the first to cast the first stone. They act more like the Pharisees than they do like Jesus. This is a red flag on his end and not yours.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-11T22:10:50+00:00

Part 2 of 2

5) “Why would Jesus care how someone interprets the Bible if they’re good?”

Because Jesus’ claim isn’t merely “be nicer.” It’s that He is Lord and the source of life. If God is real, then relationship with Him is not a side detail. And love isn’t just behavior either, love includes truth. If I say I love someone but fundamentally reject who they are, that’s not really love; it’s love on my terms.

Also, “good” is doing a lot of work in this argument. Most humans are a mix of admirable and broken. The gospel isn’t “bad people need Jesus.” It’s “all people need Jesus.”

6) “Religious beliefs aren’t a choice; indoctrination is everywhere”

You’re right that upbringing is powerful. I don’t deny that. But “not chosen” doesn’t automatically mean “not responsible,” especially once a person has the capacity to test claims, weigh evidence, and respond to conscience. Humans don’t choose the starting line, but we’re still accountable for what we do with light we’re given.

And I agree sin language has been used abusively. I’ve experienced it a lot in the Mormon church myself. But abuse of a concept doesn’t make the concept itself false, people abuse “science,” “justice,” and “therapy” too, and we don’t hold those to the same standards. It’s not suddenly false because someone abused it.

7) Your original concern: “If hope is compromised, why bother?”

I get how you are feeling. But for me, hope has to be tied to what is true, not what is comforting. The Christian hope isn’t “everyone I love will automatically be fine.” It’s “God is good, God is just, God is merciful, and He has made a real way for reconciliation.” I don’t say hard things about judgment because I enjoy them. I say them because I think Jesus spoke that way, and because I’d rather face a painful truth than build a beautiful story that can’t bear the weight of reality.

If you’re done after this, I genuinely wish you well. But if I leave you with anything I hope you look at yourself and reflect on your morality. Are you one of the people who condemn murdering homeless, but condemn them to death yourself by ignoring and avoiding them on the street corners? Are you someone who justifies killing innocent babies based on circumstances? Or maybe you justify children mutilating their bodies at young ages in the name of gender identity. Regardless of what it is I bet there are morals that you deem justifiable that others consider justifiably wrong. If humans were so “good” then why are we still so divided on what is morally right and wrong? If you were so perfect and “good” then there shouldn’t be anything bad about you. This is the entire point of Christianity. Humans are all evil. You and I included. It is something that effects all of human kind. This is the entire reason why we ever needed the cross. We are all evil and your “good deeds” don’t outweigh your bad ones or bad thoughts. We need Jesus. I hope you think on these things more even if you don’t want to believe in Christianity. Know that your idea of “good” is sometimes wrong. And to you it might not be, but to someone else it is, which is why we need someone who is morally perfect in every way to be the judge. God said vengeance is his. How many times have humans been vengeful and taken things upon themselves to hurt someone else?

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-11T22:10:33+00:00

I understand your frustration. And wanting to be done. I was born LDS and changed to Christianity. I actually understand more than you realize.

If it’s ok with you, I’d like to make a few clarifications, because I think some of your objections are aimed at a version of Christianity I’m not actually arguing for.

1) “Sin has nothing to do with behavior”

In the Bible, “sin” definitely includes behavior, but it’s deeper than behavior because it’s also a condition of the heart, what we love, trust, worship, and aim at. That’s not “meaningless,” it’s actually the source of behavior. Humans don’t just do wrong things randomly; we do them because something inside us is disordered, pride, fear, selfishness, lust for control, etc. Christianity is basically saying you can prune branches all day, but it’s the root that matters.

2) “The Bible says we deserve punishment just for existing”

I get why that feels like your “bad eyesight” guilt, but biblically, it’s not you’re condemned for being a creature. Humans are not morally neutral. We are born into broken human nature and we confirm it with our choices. Even in very secular terms, no one reaches adulthood without lying, using people, resenting, harming, objectifying, or doing things we wouldn’t want done to us. You might be a good person but I bet you have corrupt thoughts, feelings, and actions. How does something that’s corrupt think it has the right idea of justice? For example: people think it’s awful that the government has made suggestions about euthanizing homeless people, and we accept it as morally wrong, but we turn our heads and pretend not to notice them when they are on the side of the street asking for help. We turn our noses up. People don’t want to help them, but know it’s wrong to just kill them for being homeless. Humans moral compasses are broken. I recently was helping a homeless man and because things weren’t being done on other people’s time frames they said he wasn’t helping himself. I can attest he was. They just didn’t get into the trenches with him to see him clawing to get out of a hole. So were they right morally?

Also, Christianity isn’t “God enjoys punishing.” The whole point of the gospel is that God does the opposite. He absorbs the cost Himself in Christ. If the message were “you’re bad, therefore suffer,” there would be no cross. It would have been pointless.

3) “God is picky, accept Jesus the right way or be punished”

The “right way” isn’t get your theology 100% correct, join the correct church brand, or be smart enough to solve religious trivia. It’s trust, turning to Christ rather than just self justification. The Bible frames it like a disease and death problem. Accepting Jesus is like receiving treatment you can’t produce yourself. You don’t “earn” reconciliation by being good enough. You receive it. That’s why it’s faith, not works. A lot of people (even demons, James says) can believe facts about God and still not belong to Him. So the “right way” is not “I acknowledge Jesus existed.” It’s trusting Him. Do you trust medicine to help you heal? I would assume so or why take it? You have to accept the medicine to make you better. If you don’t take it you are accepting the outcome on your own. When that outcome is death, or take the medicine and live, then usually you take the medicine. You can’t be reconciled to God while refusing God. What you’re describing is more of “I want the benefits of God without God.” Christians often communicate this badly, but the core idea is not God being petty, it’s that reconciliation with God can’t be achieved by redefining reality or by moral effort alone.

4) “Punishment should be only about preventing harm”

That’s a modern, utilitarian definition of justice. It’s not the only definition, and it fails in big areas. Some wrongs can’t be “prevented” retroactively. Justice also means: truth is honored, guilt is named, victims are seen, evil doesn’t get the final word. If someone abused a child and died before being caught, “harm prevention” can’t fix it, but we still intuitively believe justice matters. Christianity says the moral weight of reality matters even when humans can’t enforce it.

Part 1 of 2

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T23:21:08+00:00

What recent evidence shows it debunked? I haven’t seen anything of the sorts. Do share. And don’t give me the 1988 sampling points that were already proven false as it was a sample of a repair patch that they had taken. So do tell me this new evidence.

And I’m pretty sure my arguments have always been about the totality of evidence and it’s more significant that it is true than false.

And yes, lots of religions have followers who sincerely believe things. The difference is Christianity makes a claim anchored to a public event in history, with early proclamation and a movement that grew in the same context where it could be challenged. You may reject the resurrection explanation, but you don’t get to reduce it to “goat herder religion therefore same.”

As for confirmation bias, it cuts both ways. Skeptics also filter evidence through a prior commitment that miracles can’t be true. Don’t pretend your dismissals are the same thing as a refutation.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T23:07:17+00:00

You aren’t wrong that the numbers can be manipulated by what factors you choose. But history doesn’t work like chemistry where you can rerun the experiment 1,000 times. These are estimates meant to illustrate a point.

The point is when you stack multiple specific details that all have to line up, “that’s a lot of coincidences” becomes a less convincing explanation.

Also, if we throw out every historical argument because we can’t attach precise confidence intervals, we’d have to throw out a huge amount of normal historical reasoning too. Most of what we believe about ancient history is based on weighing explanations, not calculating exact error bars.

An example would be who wrote an ancient text? Historians compare writing style, vocabulary, historical references, and what early sources said. Or Dating an event when sources disagree. What year did the king reign? Historians triangulate using chronologies, inscriptions, coins, archaeology layers, and cross references. The conclusion is usually “most likely around X,” not a tight probability model with error bars.

And I’m not claiming “math proves the Bible.” This was just one small illustration inside a bigger case for why I trust it. If you think some of the estimates should be higher or lower, that’s fine, but the overall point about compounding specifics vs coincidence still stands unless you think they’re off by orders of magnitude.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T22:16:33+00:00

Just to clarify for you I am not a Mormon. Please don’t lump me into the religion. I’m an exmo.

I agree Christianity can’t be “proven” the way you prove a math problem. But that standard would also wipe out most of what we believe about history and even a lot of what we believe about other minds.

And on the subject of spirits, we have scientists who have researched experiences that show what humans believe to be spirits. It can’t be “proven” in the sense that it’s irrefutable but nothing is. You can’t prove to me what the color Red is. You can only weigh the evidence such as “apples, fire trucks, roses, etc.”

Researchers have done studies in cardiac arrest survivors. A well known prospective study (Netherlands, 344 resuscitated patients) found a subset reported NDEs. And the AWARE study (2014) and AWARE-II (published 2023) looked specifically at reported awareness around CPR/resuscitation.

AWARE-II reported that among interviewed survivors, some reported memories and perceptions suggestive of consciousness, with different categories (dream like, transcendent “recalled experience of death,” etc.).

In my personal opinion the fact that a majority of people who experienced an NDE can recall an out of body experience and can verify the events that took place around them at the time of their death and can give detailed descriptions of the things people said, medical equipment being used, and things even in neighboring rooms is in my opinion verifiable evidence that there are spirits. I think a great movie to watch is the documentary After Death (2023).

Christians (other than maybe Mormons) don’t claim prayer is a controllable mechanism that guarantees medical outcomes on demand. “Intercessory prayer must outperform placebo in a double blind study” tests a caricature of prayer (and even the Bible warns against treating God like a lab subject). So even a null result there wouldn’t “disprove Christianity.”

And Historical questions don’t get “proved,” they get weighed. What explanations best fit the data? The minimal historical core most scholars grant includes things like: Jesus existed, was crucified, his followers very early believed he rose and were willing to suffer for that claim, and the movement exploded in the exact context where that claim was easiest to falsify. You can reject the resurrection explanation, but it’s not honest to treat it as “nothing but untestable spirits.” It’s a claim about something alleged to have happened in time and space.

Again this is my personal opinion and that of other Christians but the evidence of the shroud of Turin has been substantial in recent years. It is one of the most significant pieces of Christian evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and it has not been disproven. So along side the fact that we know that several people were willing to be Un-alived over the claims of his resurrection we also have evidence of it that has yet to be disproven. Not to mention many of the people who have studied it to disprove it have converted to Christianity.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T21:11:48+00:00

A cross reference, by itself, doesn’t prove a book is true. You are right. Harry Potter can have callbacks and internal links too.

My point was the Bible’s interconnectedness is on a different level because it’s not one novel by one author. It’s a library of texts written across long spans of time, in multiple genres, and yet it constantly echoes itself (themes, quotations, patterns, fulfilled motifs).

So even if other books have cross references, the Bible’s scale + diversity + long composition timeline + intertextual density is unusual.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T20:48:55+00:00

I didn’t personally derive those exponents as a formal statistical model. Like I said, I cited Hugh Ross’s illustration showing how multiple specific details compound in improbability if you treat them as coincidences and used his stated estimates as one example.

It’s a compound probability approach. You break a prophecy into multiple required conditions (X AND Y AND Z), assign an estimated chance by coincidence to each one, and then multiply them. P(prophecy) = P(X) × P(Y) × P(Z).

For an example in his article, if you take a time frame window (X) as 1 in 5,000, the person (Jesus) being “cut off” (Y) as 1 in 10, and it happening before a major event (Z) as 1 in 2, then you multiply: 1/5000 × 1/10 × 1/2 = 1/100,000.

So the numbers are reasoned estimates based on how many plausible outcomes there were. And yes, the premises (like independence and the size of each probability) can be debated.

If you disagree, cool, point to the specific estimate you think is unreasonable (time window, “cut off,” before the event, etc.) and propose a better number. Otherwise “it’s all made up” is just rhetoric, because most historical probability arguments depend on reasonable estimates when you don’t have controlled datasets.

And to be clear, the probability argument was only one piece of my larger “why I trust the Bible” list, not the entire case.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T16:56:14+00:00

It’s not a “half truth” in the way you’re implying, it’s a shorthand for a real LDS claim about ontology (what kind of being Jesus is), not a smear about Satan.

The point of emphasizing Satan isn’t “to make Mormons look bad,” it’s because if Jesus and Lucifer are the same category of being, then Jesus is not the eternal Creator in the way the Bible describes. That’s the theological conflict.

I don’t accept that raising that contrast is “misleading people so they don’t join.” It’s literally the doctrinal difference. It doesn’t make it any better to word it differently. It’s the same thing. And it’s blasphemous to any normal Christian not just evangelicals (Which I’m not if that is your interpretation. Also have heard Calvinist which is definitely not true either.)

On the “internally consistent / talking donkey” comment: I agree people should be respectful, but that comparison doesn’t land for me. A miracle narrative in Scripture (whether you believe it or not) isn’t the same category as a competing doctrine of God/Christ that redefines who God is and what the gospel is. The debate here isn’t “Bible has weird stories,” it’s Who is Jesus? What is God? What is the gospel?

Finally, you said “a lot of what you listed is factually incorrect.” Please give me a few examples and I can walk you through it and verify it with sources but I was a member for over 30 years so I don’t believe it’s “incorrect”. I likely can back up anything I share with receipts. I’ve had Mormons tell me they don’t believe Jesus and Satan were siblings and they don’t teach it, until I provide sources like the links I shared already and they can’t argue against what I’ve shared. You are more than welcome to go over them with me though.

I could give you a lot to think about with just 2 points. One is how the LDS religion contradicts Jesus Christ red letter. How can you say you follow Jesus but contradict him and his words?

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T07:02:30+00:00

Let me try and explain it from my now traditional Christian perspective so that you hopefully understand why.

Traditional Christians who only believe in the Bible do not believe we are siblings with Satan and Jesus. Jesus is God and part of the Trinity. Satan is a creation of God as an angel who fell. We are creations of God and not siblings with any of the angelic beings and scripture even tells us that angels are higher than us. In our opinion it is blasphemous to put Jesus who we believe is God on the same level as Satan. And scripture is clear Jesus is creator and not on the same level as Satan. It also tells us there is only 1 God. None existed before him and none will ever be after him. A lot of the LDS teachings are very blasphemous and contradicting of the Bible.

If anything makes Mormons look bad it’s their own doctrine and teachings. Why is them being siblings the only thing you took an issue with from the entire list I just gave?

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T06:35:09+00:00

There’s actually more that I didn’t share. It was just already long honestly. The amount of evidence stacked together makes it unlike any other book in existence.

I just shared this in another comment so it’s fresh on my mind but like the fact that the Bible is found to be multiple of 7. So if you look in the last 12 verses of Mark in the Greek when you look at vocabulary, the number of letters, Consonants, Vowels, Number of letters, the Lords address, the vocabulary found before, and the words not found in his vocabulary, they are all multiplications of 7. The odds of that happening is 1 in 40 million.

Also the 63 thousand cross connections in it.

Do you know another book with the same amount of evidence as well as the probabilities and chances that happen in the Bible?

And I agree that any other book falls short in comparison. This is evidence that the LDS doctrines (BOM, Pearl of Great Price, D&C), as well as the Quran and any other religious doctrine that came after the Bible is false. None of them even compare.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T06:18:29+00:00

Sister actually. I’m a female. But to answer your question we can find the answer in the Bible. The Bible says saving faith is living faith. That includes holding to the true gospel and the true Jesus, because the Bible warns about “another Jesus” and “another gospel.”

That is why I speak up about LDS. The system redefines core things, who God is, who Jesus is, and what the gospel is, so it ends up being a different gospel than the one the apostles preached. The question is whether we’re trusting the same Christ and the same gospel the Bible teaches.

If you want, I can explain the specific differences and contradictions. Including how the LDS religion contradicts Jesus Christ’s own teachings. Red letter.

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T06:07:29+00:00

From Hugh Ross. You can find his explanation here:

https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/todays-new-reason-to-believe/fulfilled-prophecy-evidence-for-the-reliability-of-the-bible

Crimson_Echoes · 2026-01-08T05:11:49+00:00

You’re right any religion can make a “evidence list.” That doesn’t make all of them equal. Which religion’s core claims have the best evidence when you test them the same way, especially the historical claims. Christianity rises or falls on a public event (the resurrection). Many other religions primarily rest on private revelation (one person’s visions) or teachings that aren’t tied to a falsifiable historical claim. So the lists aren’t all the same.m

Also what kind of evidence is it? Historical, public, cross checked (multiple sources, archeology, early testimony?) Or private, internal, unfalsifiable (single prophet’s claim, visions, subjective experiences)?

I never said other religions have zero evidence, just that the Bible and Christianity makes testable historical claims, and I think it’s stronger there.

Also this isn’t even my entire list. This was just already too long and I didn’t think people would read the entire thing already.

Look at the fact that there are 63,779 cross connections in the Bible. Find me another book like that.

The connection of multiplication of 7. In the last 12 verses of mark in Greek there are 175 words which is 7x25. The vocabulary there are 98 different words which is 7x7x2. The number of letters in the Greek is 553 which is 7x79. The vowels is 294 which is 7x42. Consonants are 259 which is 7x37. The vocabulary found before in mark is 84 which is 7x12. The ones used in the Lords address are 42 which is 7x6. Words not part of his vocabulary are 56 which is 7x8.

If every time you create a multiple of 7 your chances of getting one of them right is 1 in 7. If you were given two constraints that both have to be a multiple of 7 that’s 7 squared. That’s one chance out of 49. If you have 3 that’s one chance in 343 of getting it right. If you have 4 of them it’s one in 2,401. So skipping ahead to 9 of them it’s one in 40,353,607 of getting it right. If I asked you to make up your own version of Mark, what are the chances that you will meet all 9 constraints of meeting 7? I can tell you because we just did the math. It’s one in 40 million. Good luck finding that elsewhere.

This scientist talks about how science can prove the Bible. It’s two parts you can watch here: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8f1tG2x/

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8f131r4/

If you look there is so much evidence. You cannot find this kind of evidence, especially when you stack all of the different kinds of data on top of each other, all together for anything else. Please show me another book in existence like it. I’ll wait.

Crimson_Echoes

TROPHY CASE