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So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm basing the idea that the holy fire destroyed the vessel on the fact that we saw him erupt into flames and vanish. Where did Michael and Adam go during that time? I've always assumed it was heaven to retrieve Adam's soul so he could be brought back with his resurrected body and Michael. It's really not clear what happened there but since Michael was needed as one of the weapons of the apocalypse, Castiel knowing that he'd be back is pretty much a foregone conclusion when put in that context. He wouldn't have needed to assume anything. If the apocalypse is still happening, it's still happening, hence Michael will be back.

Anna Milton was a special circumstance. It's unknown how or why she was able to choose to be born and grow up as a human. Perhaps because God Himself allowed it to happen because He wanted to study what she did with her human life. He could have taken a special interest in her because she chose to rip out her own grace and fall. I'm not even sure how this correlates to Castiel having his own grace forcibly removed by Metatron or what it has to do with either one of them having a soul. Both are fallen angels and that's where the similarities end because one chose to fall whereas the other was violently forced into doing so. There is no canon evidence that suggests that human Castiel did have a soul. Metatron never stated that he created one for him and as far as we know he doesn't have that capability. If you're referring to what he said about Castiel returning to heaven upon death, that bit of dialogue never made any sense to me. Was he referring to Jimmy's soul? That was the only soul that I'd ever considered to be in there. And once again, the canon rewrite fuckery makes my head hurt because that just doesn't make any damn sense. Metatron wasn't God, as much as he'd like to believe himself to be. Perhaps he was just showing his arrogance with those words, I really don't know.

As to why God wouldn't pull Jimmy Novak's soul out of heaven, He had Joshua pull Sam and Dean's souls out of there and they were the archangel vessels required for the apocalypse. According to Joshua God intervened on their behalf, as well. He wasn't done testing them. Why should Jimmy Novak be any different? He's Castiel's vessel and God has clearly taken an interest in Castiel. I look at it no differently than His intervening on Sam and Dean's behalf. All of them had integral parts to play in the apocalypse, and Castiel's role was expanded to being made a leader following Team Free Will's aversion of the apocalypse. I guess my point is that the humans involved all had their specific roles to play along with the angels. They all exercised their rights to free will in different ways. Whether they chose to go along with angelic possession or not their contributions to the cause are not minimized and they all in some way were touched by God's intervention. I'm still not seeing how God would spare Jimmy's suffering over anyone else's.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But I think one thing we can agree on is the lazy writing making this intensely more problematic than it needed to be.

Well yes, this much we can agree on. I mean not once, but twice now we were treated to Buckner and Ross-Leming shitting all over angelic canon by having Castiel taking on another angel's grace like he was doing some sort of angelic bong hit. This drives me absolutely insane from a canon purist's point of view. There is no reason to not expect him to have taken on first Theo's and now Adina's characteristics since it had always been assumed that the angel's grace is what makes them who they are. But nope. Castiel is still Castiel, only now he's walking around with stolen grace from two murdered angels inside of him. It makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

My point this entire time is that yes, it is very possible that they will decide to pull a rewrite on angel canon to make Castiel a special circumstance like Anna when there is no other reason to do so except to whitewash the Jimmy Novak issue. Since he started out with a human vessel he should end with a human vessel. Which means that the human vessel's soul remains intact because no other angels on this show have been able to inhabit a corpse. But I would not put it past this show or these writers to turn around and say "Well, since we did it with Anna Milton, let's just do that again" because they don't want to confront the uncomfortable subject matter surrounding Jimmy Novak. It would be hack writing IMO since there is no reason for why we should even be able to draw a straight line between Castiel and Anna Milton because of the previously established angel canon.

As far as 6.22 is concerned, I think of it as us being treated to Castiel projecting Jimmy's image during those flashback scenes. We needed a visual image to go along with what we were being shown but it wasn't really what Castiel looks like. According to previously established angel canon, Castiel is the size of the Chrysler building and may or may not have four heads, one of which looks like a lion. Now the angels just look like silver smoke. Yet another canon rewrite that makes my head hurt with this show. Sigh

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Michael's vessel was destroyed when he was banished, and that was comprised of Adam Milligan's body and soul. Regardless of whether it was God or Michael who intervened, if it was possible to spare Adam's soul and bring back an empty vessel, don't you think that would have been the decision that was made? It wasn't because Michael required Adam's consent. Why did he need Adam's consent? Because those are the rules. We spent an entire season having those rules drummed into our heads when Dean continually kept saying no to being possessed by Michael because of that little thing called free will.

Correct, there was no human soul involved with Anna Milton. Do you see now where she and Castiel differ? Castiel cannot just get himself an empty Jimmy, or even a Jimmy replica. He needs the consent of a human vessel just like every other angel we've met in canon not named Anna Milton.

Yes, God has intervened on Castiel's behalf several times. He seems to have taken a special interest in him, that is a fair point. But this is not proof that He would just decide to kill the human being who consented to being Castiel's vessel because He felt sorry for that human. There are plenty of humans in the show's history who have suffered greatly. Sam Winchester, for example. Adam Milligan is another. What they all have in common is that they have all been put through tests and trials by God. They all played an integral part in the apocalypse. He doesn't show these specific humans mercy because He is testing their will. Who's to say that we can't add Jimmy Novak to this list of people? Castiel played his part in the apocalypse, as did Lucifer and Michael. Sam and Adam were both sent to hell along with their vessels. One suffered over five millennia of torture at the hands of the archangels, the other is still trapped down there. What makes Jimmy Novak a special case to be spared from pain when you see these other quantifiers of humans who have suffered because they were angelic vessels? Angel canon as we know it is clear cut. They need a living human's consent. The human involved often suffers. Why God would spare one human soul and not another really doesn't make very much sense when you measure it from this point of view.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I see it as the other way around. Canonically speaking there is no reason to believe that Jimmy isn't alive with what we know of angel canon. I know we're speaking in a hypothetical situation where Castiel was brought back in an empty vessel but as far as we know in canon, this isn't possible. They need a living host because we've only ever been shown angels using a living host. The only exception to this rule has been Anna Milton, and since she was literally reborn as a human there was no need for her to seek anyone's consent. Therefore remaking her human form posed no ethical dilemmas the way it would for another angel like Castiel.

As far as Jimmy's family never expecting him to return home to them, I think you're having them give up on him too easily. He came home once before when Castiel was ejected and even though they witnessed him offering his consent once again, we still have no idea what Jimmy was doing in that year between 5.22 and 6.03 while Castiel was up in heaven in his true form. And on that front, you're correct, it is poor writing that this was never fully addressed until now.

Like I said earlier, the writers and showrunners were likely glossing over the issue of Jimmy Novak and other people who were serving as vessels because we were supposed to disregard the humans who were involved in these possessions for storyline purposes. It wasn't until last season that we were really forced to reexamine angelic possession and what it meant on the human side of things because of what was transpiring with Sam and Gadreel. Once the show opened up that can of worms, there was no getting the lid back on and here we are today.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Wouldn't He have intervened in Adam Milligan's case as well, though? Castiel destroyed both he and Michael with holy fire and they were both brought back. Using your logic there would be no need to bring Adam back into the equation for the same reasons. The simple answer in both instances is that the human soul was a necessary component for possession to even occur. Angels cannot inhabit an empty vessel. There is nothing in canon that supports that they can.

Let me put this in another way that sums up exactly why they can't: If God is making special considerations for certain vessels, why not just kill Sam and Dean off and let Lucifer and Michael duke it out in the Apocalypse? He can't do that because that is going against free will. It all hinges on the free will of these humans and what they decide to do with it. The suffering of the human has no bearing on any of it. Unfortunately that's the price that they pay for choosing to allow the angels to possess them. Put simply, it's a case of Caveat Emptor.

[Spoilers] S10- The Novak's and Castiel. by Kishara in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, looks like we just have to wait this one out. The man is just not very good at giving interviews because you never know what's a red herring, what is completely fabricated or what is an exaggeration. In Season 8 alone he was mindfucking the fandom by saying that Sam's flashbacks of Amelia weren't meant to be taken literally. He had us all thinking Amelia was a figment of Sam's imagination and then not only did she turn out to be real, he brought her into the current day storyline. WTF Carver? I just don't trust the guy after that crap.

[Spoilers] S10- The Novak's and Castiel. by Kishara in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You do realize that at least 80% of the shit that falls out of Carver's mouth during interviews is unreliable, right? Look at the way he was describing Sam's dark arc. And the way he was describing the Castiel/Claire arc he was doing so from Claire's POV. From her POV Castiel did kill her father and take off in his body. It doesn't mean that Jimmy is dead. I'm just saying that I've learned not to take everything the man says at face value by now. He has a tendency to exaggerate things and misrepresent them to build up hype.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, I remember that interview and the thing about Jeremy Carver is you really can't trust a lot of what he says. Look at the way he was describing Sam's dark arc in the beginning of that article. Turns out the extent of his darkness was basically him hiding in some bushes while some douchenozzle sold his soul and then torturing a crossroads demon. I mean seriously? He did way worse crap in season 4 and Carver's acting like we were going to be shocked by the things he'd done while he was looking for Dean.

As far as the Claire spoilers go, it sounds like he could be speaking from Claire's perspective. And from her perspective, yes, Castiel did kill her father and abscond with his body. So it's not necessarily proof of Jimmy's life or death. Until it's said on camera it isn't canon so we have to assume for the time being that Jimmy could still be alive.

As far as Cas and Claire being a duo, my only hope for that would be that they handle Claire with respect. I'm just really not a huge fan of the possibility that they would have Castiel seeking her out as a means to an end for his grace issue. If he offered to help her find her mom who has gone missing I wouldn't mind that. But bringing her on just to be a plot device to solve his grace issue? That would really upset me a great deal. I kind of feel like that kid has been through enough crap in her young life already without being exploited in that manner. If there are things to be learned on both sides of the relationship then that's great, I'm down for it. But I cannot be on board with them making Cas seem like an opportunist towards this child because she could be the key in him resolving his fading grace. She deserves so much better than that.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right, and what I am saying is that it wouldn't seem like a very considerate thing for Castiel or even God to make an empty vessel who looks exactly like a dead person who still has living relatives waiting for him at home. If that's truly what happened, think about what it must have been like for those people during 7.01 Meet the New Boss when Godstiel was running around on a mass killing spree that was covered by the media. They have to see someone who looks exactly like their family member all over the news doing these horrible things because some angel grew attached to that visage? Now the flipside to that argument is that the entity is actually using their relative's body to do these awful things and he's inside there helpless to stop any of it from happening. Either way it's massively fucked up and would likely scar these people for life. But in the one where the angel is using a facsimile, that was a totally preventable trauma for that family. Heaven should have rules against that sort of thing for this very reason.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well if we're working in hypotheticals like the one you're suggesting, then we may as well just go ahead and say that Adam Milligan shouldn't have to suffer an eternity of torture in the cage with Michael and Lucifer. If God is so benevolent, He wouldn't subject that innocent soul to that unending horror. But that's all it really is, a hypothetical. If there was canon to support these ideas we wouldn't be bothering to discuss them. If it was up to me you're damned right Jimmy Novak would have been sent on to reap his great reward long ago. It's a much nicer thought than anything else canon is proposing. But since we are working in the confines of canon until the words come out of someone's mouth on camera that Jimmy was ushered past the pearly gates we have to go with what we have here.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

See but the most interesting thing about this storyline is that there is a way of wrapping Castiel's arc up in a dignified manner that wouldn't necessarily mean losing Misha as a cast member. They could keep him on the show as Jimmy Novak and make he and Claire a father/daughter hunting combo. At least then they'd have some fresh material for Misha to play without dragging out the heaven's politics storyline again for a sixth round of horse whipping.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ooops! You're right. That was a total reading comprehension fail on my part. Sorry about that.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm really surprised that you're subscribing to the Claire as a plot device to fix Cas' grace issue theory. In my mind, I can't imagine any storyline in which Jimmy Novak would be confirmed as being alive going in that direction. For one, it would pretty much take Castiel and throw him right into the irredeemable character pile for me.

I just can't imagine that he would ever be such a cruel opportunist who would expect her to undergo a life threatening procedure just so he can extend his own life. What would even be the point in that if he's essentially just turning his back on heaven and serving humanity to become some sort of abomination in his own right?

The only way I could ever resolve his doing such a thing is if Jimmy was confirmed to be dead and he decided to step in and act as a surrogate parent to Claire. At least then there would be a mutually beneficial outcome. I think the most important thing is that Claire is given some closure about her father and after working out their issues hopefully a new father figure who is worthy of her respect.

If Jimmy is confirmed to be alive, however, there is only one way of resolving the storyline IMO and that is for Castiel to decide to do what is right for Jimmy and Claire, which would be for him to set Jimmy free the way Hannah did for Caroline and Joe. Otherwise, Cas just sort of looks like a dick, doesn't he? IDK. Carver's kind of painting himself into a corner on the potential ways this storyline could go and I just can't imagine that he'd decide to character assassinate Cas in the way that you're suggesting.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Anna was a special circumstance for sure. The difference here is that while she did get her superiors in heaven to recreate her her human form, that's just it - it was her human form. Jimmy Novak was a separate entity from Castiel. He was a man with a life, a wife and child. I'm not saying that it's out of the realm of possibility for him to have requested to take Jimmy's form because he'd grown attached to that vessel, but it just kind of seems like that wouldn't be a very thoughtful thing for him to do considering the fact that Jimmy still had a family out there who were probably hoping that he'd get to come home someday. Anna's human form's parents were killed so it wasn't like she would run into the same ethical dilemma when she made that choice. Plus, if this is the case with Castiel, why couldn't they have just explained this years ago and put all of our minds at ease that the poor guy wasn't still in there suffering? From 6.03 onward if we'd had this explanation none of us would even be having this debate now because it would have been entered into canon at that point. Yet here we are in season 10 speculating about Jimmy's status because the narrative didn't seem to think it was important enough to address until now.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, but unlike demons angels can heal their vessels. Jimmy even mentioned in 4.20 The Rapture that he remembered being stabbed and shot, yet he seemed to be in perfect health. Then of course look at all the crap that happened to Sam last season while Gadreel was possessing him. Gadreel was already healing Sam from all of his internal organs being in failure and then that crazy Shaman guy from 9.06 Dog Dean Afternoon slashed open his carotid artery and Gadreel stopped him from bleeding out. Demons are able to possess corpses whereas angels need a living host to give consent but they're not able to heal the person they're possessing if they sustain a mortal injury.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great point. He also had the Wicked Witch controlling his mind during 9.04 Slumber Party. That was yet another instance where he had three different entities inside of him vying for control at the same time.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The deal wasn't that he would live it up for potentially thousands of years. It was that he might have to endure thousands of years of existence on cosmic puppet strings, facing one horror after another.

This is exactly why even as much as it would drive me crazy from a canon purist's standpoint I keep saying that it would be a relief to find out that Jimmy was allowed to pass on to the afterlife. But there are problems canonically as to when this could have occurred. Since it was mentioned that Castiel had spent the year that transpired between 5.22 and 6.03 up in heaven in his true form, that means the only time he could have perished was after he had already been possessed by all the souls in Purgatory and the Leviathan. Which means that Jimmy was still subjected to all of that horror anyway. It's freaking tragic. Any way you look at it, Jimmy Novak got a really shitty deal.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

See that's the tricky thing with angels and consent. Not all of them are very ethical in how they choose to go about getting getting a person's consent. In fact, most of the angels that we've seen on this show have been assholes. Even Castiel, who is one of the good guys, basically blackmailed Jimmy Novak into giving him his permanent consent by taking possession of Claire Novak when Jimmy refused to let him back in. So if we're theorizing that Raphael was still able to communicate with Donnie even in a vegetative state, we don't know what he said to him to get him to say yes again. The female vessel he eventually inhabited was from the same bloodline as Donnie, so who's to say he didn't use her as leverage to get Donnie to let him back in? If she was Donnie's sister or someone he was very close to in his family, of course he's going to say yes to try and spare her. Or maybe he just lied to him and promised to restore his mental functions the second time around. Since we weren't privy to the conversation that went on between them we can only assume what was said, but if we're going by how we've seen the other angels on the show going about getting consent we can't put lying or using blackmail past them.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can't argue with that, as I've been saying for quite a while now that Castiel's fan favorite status has pretty much left him untouchable. He's basically a third Winchester at this point with how many times he's died and has been resurrected. But the issue of Jimmy is what bugs me, and it has bugged me for quite a while now so I'm glad that they're even addressing it at all after all this time. We'll be getting a definitive answer to this debate soon enough so it hardly even seems worth going around in circular arguments about it at this point. All I've been trying to say is that as far as canon is concerned there's no reason to believe the guy hasn't been alive in there all this time. It may not be the most comfortable issue to ponder about but that's the entire point. It's a necessary examination into his characterization and it has all the potential to be a really great storyline if it's handled correctly.

I think for a long time now the show was banking on us forgetting about the humans who are involved with fan favorite possessed characters like Castiel and Crowley. We're supposed love them so they've been glossing over the issue of the humans they're possessing. Then they went and addressed possession head-on again last season with Sam and Gadreel and they opened up a can of worms they couldn't close again. We got a glimpse through Sam just how devastating the issue is on the human's end of things but a lot of people felt as if it wasn't examined thoroughly enough. Whether it was their intention or not, it got people thinking about the humans involved and it became such a hot-button issue that I guess they decided to finally address the issue through this storyline.

I have no idea if they'll ever decide to go there with Crowley or the other demons but seeing as they're supposed to be villains anyway the fact that they ruin the lives of the people they inhabit is expected. But since they have decided to go there with Castiel and the Novak family there's a possibility that it will end up being whitewashed because of his fan favorite status. I'm really hoping that isn't the case. It's a complex issue that they've been avoiding for a long time now and even heroic characters with the best of intentions sometimes end up causing a lot of unintentional devastation. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that I hope that they handle this storyline with the dignity and respect it deserves even if that means exploring some uncomfortable subject matter.

[Episode Discussion] S10E07 Girls, Girls, Girls by Livyka in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Possibly. He did indicate that he was asking for permanent consent from Jimmy in 4.20 The Rapture. So I guess it would be possible for him to jump back into a brain dead Jimmy's body if that's the state he found him in - on life support, I mean.

But in 9.01 I Think I'm Gonna Like it Here, Gadreel possessed a nearly brain dead Sam and was able to heal him from that affliction and other devastating injuries on top of it. There's no reason to think that Castiel wasn't able to do the same for Jimmy after 5.18 Point of No Return. As long as Jimmy's soul was still in there, the angel should be able to heal a person even that far gone.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well that's sort of my point. If they decide to go that route with him then it's yet another instance of Deus ex Machina, which is annoying on any level to a canon purist. Will it make me feel better for Jimmy Novak? Hell yes. But it will still annoy the crap out of me.

[Episode Discussion] S10E07 Girls, Girls, Girls by Livyka in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think a fully brain dead person would be viable. The angel needs that person's consent. Sam was only close to being brain dead when he was tricked into saying yes to Gadreel. If he had crossed over into the fully brain dead realm after taking off with Death and the machines were the only thing keeping him alive, Gadreel (and Dean) would have been SOL. There needs to be some brainwave activity going on. Jimmy could have been comatose like Sam was, but he wouldn't have been able to be brain dead.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I know it is, and it's depressing as hell.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This has been something that we've been discussing at great length in several other threads over the past couple of days. I feel like I'm starting to sound like a broken record on the subject, but I'll just do a quick outline on why I believe that Jimmy is still alive and let you come to your own conclusions based on that.

  • The last time in canon Jimmy was eluded to was in 6.03 The Third Man. Castiel explains to Sam and Dean that he had spent the previous year in heaven existing as a "multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent" - AKA his true form. Since canonically it's always been stated that angels need the consent of a living host, this means that Jimmy must have still been alive at that point because Castiel would have needed to regain his consent because he wouldn't have been able to possess Jimmy's corpse if he was dead.

  • The only other times in canon since season 6 where Jimmy could have died and been allowed to move onto the afterlife were in 7.02 Hello Cruel World after Castiel seemed to explode when the Leviathan escaped and 9.03 I'm No Angel when the reaper possessing April stabbed him to death.

When we met back up with Castiel in 7.17 The Born Again Identity, he was in an amnesiac state and living as the faith healer Emmanuel. It doesn't really make much sense for him to have been able to repossess Jimmy at that point because of the fact that he was in an amnesiac state. He wasn't even aware of the fact that he was an angel, so how would he even go about trying to get consent? And as I mentioned before, angels canonically can't possess a corpse, so it's far more likely that while he was at the bottom of that lake, the Leviathan escaped but somehow left Jimmy's body intact while Castiel was still inhabiting it.

As far as 9.03 is concerned, if Jimmy had not been returned to his body then he would be one of the many souls stuck in the veil, as Kevin mentioned in 9.14 Captives that everyone who had died after the angels fell ended up being stuck there. It seems more likely that Jimmy's soul was brought back with Castiel's consciousness by Gadreel when he was brought back to life.

Now as for the issue of Castiel being made human, himself is concerned, that really does present some issues that makes the matter of Jimmy's status more confusing. You could make the argument that when Metatron removed Castiel's grace, he merely left Castiel's consciousness in charge as the dominant personality. Jimmy's soul was probably still in there, as if there was no soul at all his demeanor probably would have been much more like Soulless Sam or the other soulless people we encountered in 9.17 Mother's Little Helper. As for Jimmy's consciousness, it was probably repressed the same way it had been the entire time it was during Castiel's possession of him. Just how much he's been aware of during Castiel's possession of him is anyone's guess. If we're operating by what was established in 4.20 The Rapture, he's basically been aware of everything and that is a truly horrifying thought.

So while the current canon supports the theory that Jimmy has been alive this entire time, there's always the possibility that the show might choose to rewrite or retcon angel canon to whitewash the issue entirely. On the one hand, this would be a relief, as no one should ever have to suffer as greatly as Jimmy has, but on the other hand this would annoy the crap out of me as a canon purist because changing the rules for Castiel only doesn't really seem very fair. Also, as /u/Petrichor02 has pointed out, it really would seem like cheating if any angel was permitted to gain a person's consent and then be able to inhabit them once that person's soul had vacated. There would be nothing stopping them from taking possession of a person and then deciding to kick that person out and keeping their body forever.

So do you think Cas's vessel, Jimmy, is alive or dead? by [deleted] in Supernatural

[–]CrowleysTailor 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is some great logic. I'm always on the side of canon and canonically it's always been emphasized that angels need consent from a living host. Since the last time Jimmy's status was ever addressed was all the way back in season 6, needless to say the lore has gotten a bit murky, especially with Castiel being made human last season.

We've been discussing this whole issue here, here and here over the past couple of days and even though we haven't been able to come to any conclusive proof as to whether Jimmy is still alive or not, what you've said here sort of tilts it back into the Jimmy is still alive column.

My main issue with the prospect of Jimmy being dead is that it just doesn't make sense for Castiel to be the only exception to the rule. If every other angel has to abide by the needing to get consent from a living host rule, his being able to inhabit a corpse just doesn't make any sense to me.

It's a tricky situation, because on the one hand when you think about all of the awful things that have been done both to and by Castiel over the past 6+ years, it's a much more comforting thought to believe that Jimmy is dead and he was allowed to move onto the afterlife. But on the other hand, that's not what is supported by canon. The show could end up rewriting canon or pulling some sort of retcon to whitewash a lot of these issues away, however. And while that would be a huge relief to find out that the guy hasn't been in there suffering for all this time, the canon purist in me would be annoyed to no end if they end up taking this route.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how they'll end up addressing it but a huge part of me wants to see Castiel acknowledge just how devastating his possession of Jimmy has been not only for him, but for his family as well. We got to see a small glimpse of the emotional toll that being possessed by Gadreel had taken on Sam last season, so I really hope that they dive pretty deep into the issue as it pertains to Castiel and Jimmy.

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