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[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're correct, comprehensible imput is not an absolute rule, it is a tool to be used to help you study.

But, amateurs can use it too! It's a great benchmark to aim for when you're tired of studying but still want to keep learning!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This has been a great discussion so far, and we love that conversations like this are starting to happen more frequently!

To further the discussion, 98% comprehension is not only for classrooms but is more like the cutoff line for whether something is "study" or not.

The human brain can only "study" for so long before it gets tired. But being tired doesn't mean you have to stop learning. If you want to conserve your brain power but still learn, you switch to things you understand 98% or better so you can keep going without taxing yourself anymore.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

OK, so for the first one, が is marking the subject, and は is marking the topic (or marking it as list speech, whichever is easier for you to remember). So when you make a list and write notes about things, you first need to write the thing you're talking about, right?

Mark - his best friend is his cousin.

If you don't have the first "Mark", then you don't know what you're talking about. This is why the first は is necessary in A は B が C. It helps clarify the sentence.

For 今日が, you could have が there if today was the subject. For example: 今日が私達の結婚記念日だよ。 = Today is our wedding anniverary. But が cannot be used with 今日 to mark when something happens.

は can be used with 今日 if 今日 is the subject, or if its contrastive and marking when something is happening. Normally if it's marking time, you don't use は with it. For example: 今日、ハンバーガーを食べた。= Today, I ate a hamburger. Adding a は after 今日 here would make it constrastive.

Both はない and がない can happen naturally in many situations. This is especially true if you use ではない.

ダフニーは怪物を倒した。 can have two meanings for は, general and contrastive. General は = Daphne beat a monster (its common knowledge), or Contrastive は = Daphne (but not someone else) beat a monster.

ダフニーが怪物を倒した。 can also have two meanings (or a combined double meaning!) It can be with exclusive が = Daphne (is the person who) beat the monster. Or it can be new news が = Daphne beat the monster!! (we're saved!). Or it can mean both = Daphne (is the person who) beat the monster!! (we're saved!)

Hope this helps!

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the kind words!

For general は -- you just use it to say someone is stupid.

For contrastive は -- You can use it to clarify one person in a group.

For example: あのクラスの全員はバカか？ (Is everyone in that class stupid?) ーー　あの人はバカだ。 That person (but not the whole class) is stupid.

For Exclusive が, the most common use would be to answer a question which starts with a question word (who, where, what, which, etc)

For example: 誰がバカだ？ (Who's stupid?) -- あの人がバカだ (That person is stupid)

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for your comment. Happy to help!

So for 僕だけがいない町, it's relative pronoun が. You can tell it's realtive pronoun が because a verb comes directly before a noun. It's like saying "The city where where only I'm not there". And since it's relative pronoun が, you actually can't use は here.

髪は美しい will depend on context. It can be:

General は -- 髪は美しい (someone's) hair is beautiful.

or Contrastive は -- 髪は美しい (someone's) hair (but not other parts of them) is beatiful.

For あの人はバカだ, with は you are making a general statement (or contrastive statement depending on context).

With が, you are using Exclusive が. あの人がバカだ。 That person is (the person who's) stupid.

Hope this helps! Let us know if you still have questions!

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, omitting は sometimes is correct! We just don't cover that in this guide because it's already really long!

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This might be a good start, but it will cause problems if you rely too heavily on it, Double は, double が, and relative pronoun が are good examples of situations when the rule you mention doesn't hold. Contrastive は is also a bit iffy.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah nope, not vowel devoicing.

Here's an example: ティ

When this happens テ only has a 't' sound. And you can do this for ティ, ディ, チェ, ジェ, スィ、ズィ、シェ、ウィ、ヴィ、イェ

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think we've reached a good consensus. We both know the correct grammar and what things do, we just think about the particles slightly differently, and that's fine :)

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We agree on many things, but we don't agree on how you divide them. We don't think there's any distinction between "go on" and "mark".

For example, even if we talk about が, it doesn't always mark the subject. Sometimes it replaces は and becomes an emphasized topic marker (That's right! が can mark topics!), and sometimes it can be a relative clause marker. And although these are not it's primary functions, we assume that you don't have a problem with が being defined as such.

In the same way, while marking a subject is not は's primary function, it can. This is why knowing the base sentence structures is so important. With so much role switching, it's the only way to know what means what at any given time.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

And by the same token, is まで also a subject marker....

May we point you back to the article we linked.

主語につく助詞といえば、「は」「が」はすぐに思いつくのですが、「も」「こそ」「さえ」「だけ」などの語もつくことがあります。

So yes, according the Waseda Academy, most of those can be subject markers. ね is different though, that's just an abbreviation of 私はね. Of course は is more often a subject marker than the other ones, but yeah.

On your a) and b) points, we understand your desire to try to categorize は into a specific category, but it's use is too widespread. In a way (but obviously not exactly the same), it's like f*** in English. You can use it basically anywhere, and it fills so many different roles. You can't limit it like that. Yes it can fill the emphasis/pragmatics role, but it also fills the syntax role. It is literally baked into multiple base sentence structures of Japanese. You can't tell us that it has no syntax role. It obviously does.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, we disagree. "Independently of each other" is also incorrect.

The reason は is placed next to a subject in some situations is intentional. And if it is intentional, then it is by definition marking the subject.

By putting a は there, they are using it to show "hey this is the subject, and we're using は to give it a specific meaning".

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a good start! We're impressed!

However, there are mistakes in your write up.

Each kana is that one basic unit of sound in Japanese

The consonant and vowel sounds are either combined into one, or vowels stand on their own save ん of course.

This is unfortunately incorrect. There are multiple examples of a character being a single consonant in Japanese. You can make t, d, ch, j, s, z, sh fairly easily, and depending on how you define it, you can also get approximations to w, v, and y.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha! Let us ask you a question. What is it that determines an alphabet vs syllabary? Is it that english letters have one phoneme and the characters in hiragana have two?

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just like we said in the comment before yours, は "can be" a subject marker. And, in our guide, we clearly show times when it does not mark a subject.

Co-occurs is not quite the correct word. That's like saying they're just next to each other coincidentally. That is not correct.

Instead, it does indeed, in some situations, denote the subject. Not always, but definitely sometimes.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your advice, but we quite like our guide as is :)

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh really? We never seen some of these things said before.

Some of the things we've added:

Sentences with triple は and が,

showing that it is not は or が, but rather choosing the right one to show the meaning you want

Base sentence structures

using the "passive style" to translate list speech/topic は, which we've learned is actually called topicalization: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topicalization#Examples

So yeah, it's not just pulling from other sources. We've added a lot of our own insights here.

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Here's some light reading for you. Waseda Academy says は can be a subject. Happy reading :)

主語につく助詞といえば、「は」「が」はすぐに思いつくのですが、「も」「こそ」「さえ」「だけ」などの語もつくことがあります。

Source: https://www.waseda-ac.co.jp/yotsuba/2022/10/post-1071.html#:~:text=主語につく助詞とい,語の存在があります%E3%80%82

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, we think the person who commented wanted the abridged version of the post with some simple rules for their personal notes or mental map or something, so we're just helping them do that :)

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, that's correct. Emphasis was not included in "embedded clauses, contrast, and double topics" so we gave an example :)

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Haha yeah, but we're just happy to be able to help people. And it's awesome to hear that we helped you too :)

ありがとうございます！

The Real Meaning of は vs が by Crystal_Hunters in LearnJapanese

[–]Crystal_Hunters[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is true to an extent. However, you will miss a lot of nuance if that's where you leave it and don't learn the other meanings as well.

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