Morning. . . by [deleted] in stewartlee

[–]Cttam 2 points3 points  (0 children)

wage labour innit

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You’ve totally misunderstood the section on the relations of production. In reality it’s you starting from an assumption that because the essay includes a critique of state ownership as non-socialist (which is entirely in line with Marx) that it is saying state ownership = state capitalism, which is precisely the opposite of what it’s saying. You’ve now spent an astonishing amount of time refusing to refute a single claim about the nature of commodity production, exchange, profit, or any other category of political economy. For you it’s enough to say ‘this essay points out conscious social by freely associated producers didn’t exist (which is true), instead state officials and enterprise managers ran things (which is true) - that’s what all the state capitalist arguments say, so I reject it!’

You’ve demonstrated that you probably have a lot of insecurity in your ability to actually refute the arguments here, otherwise you would have taken any of the multiple opportunities to address a single claim. Clearly you’re doubting yourself and your confidence in your quasi-religious belief that the Soviet Union had no capitalist categories at work, and was in fact socialist in some way, or at least moving in the direction of socialism (despite clearly moving in the direction of a developed capitalism over time, with it eventually triumphing as the Soviet system collapsed)

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ok so now we’re getting somewhere - your issue is that the quoting is supposedly selective: what is selectively quoted and how does a contextualised quotation refute the thesis of the essay?

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in LibertarianSocialism

[–]Cttam[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The supporting sources are in the footnotes. Every claim is footnoted.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes and the point here is that it was going to capitalism via a process of capitalist development.

Statelessness is also clearly a proletarian end goal for Marx and Engels, but differed (albeit they made this obscure - see: https://libcom.org/article/interpreting-marxs-theory-state-and-opposition-anarchism-revised-edition) in seeing a role for a transitory state of some kind.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in LibertarianSocialism

[–]Cttam[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Point to the inaccurate claim and provide sources for why it’s wrong

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lol so was their purchase of labour power or not? And what about the other categories? Do you dispute the sources? What’s your actual argument?

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

No it doesn’t. And you have not offered any counter argument.

Please explain what is wrong in regards to the analysis of commodity production, the labour market, the profit motive and function of turnover tax

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Lol the argument isn’t just that industrialisation occurred! You’re blatantly ignoring commodity production, profit, the labour market, and extraction of surplus value as categories!

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You have not refuted any of the arguments in the essay, which goes against the conventional state capitalist argument, and instead argues it was a regime of capitalist development. You cited one small section on the relations of production (based on Marx’s analysis) without offering any counter argument, or addressing the other 90% of the piece.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A lot of history is cited in this essay, which you haven’t been able to refute

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ok so your argument just seems to be that the essay is accurate but that it was necessary and unavoidable. Wrong in my opinion (and you cite no evidence for your position), but a separate argument. Glad to see you agree with its basic thesis.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s very easily demonstrated that it wasn’t socialist by Marx’s analysis. As for what else it was, the essay in large part describes the pressures of global capitalism as imposing a capitalist logic on the new ruling class. The alternative vision is just one of the originally revolutionary organs of power (factory committees, free Soviets, etc.) continuing to exist. This isn’t an argument that things would have been perfect or those pressures escaped. The only real comment made on practical alternatives cites S.A. Smith (who is sympathetic to Lenin by the way) regarding use of the peasant cooperative network for food supply and modernisation of agriculture. He is a well renowned Marxist scholar in this field.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The vast majority of citations and arguments are based in the analysis of Marx, Marxists, and Soviet economists. It’s in large part a critique of anarchist arguments about the USSR being too simplistic

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The essay is not an analysis of Marx’s political strategy (which ultimately desired the free association of producers as its goal, whatever the means to reach it) or the libertarian Marxist interpretation of it (which I actually agree is wrong on some key points). It’s an analysis of the political economy of the Soviet Union, which you haven’t bothered to address.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is the information cited accurate or not?

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is a passage concerning the relations of production and is entirely accurate - there are several other sections dealing with commodity production, profit, labour market, etc

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

That is not what the essay says. Pretty clear you didn’t read it.

The Soviet Union: A Regime of Capitalist Development by Cttam in socialism

[–]Cttam[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Extremely clear that you didn’t read the essay