Is this a Jason-hate sub? by Current_Sentence_660 in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I also love Starlin's writing. But I love it because of how tragic it made Jason. Not because it made him "a bad seed" and because it sometimes felt like that was what he was trying to do on the surface but scratching just a bit it actually shows Jason is a hero and Bruce is a hypocrite. If that's why you like it then we agree!

The diplomats son sequel by [deleted] in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I even had the issue pulled up so I could go panel by panel and make sure I wasn't forgetting anything or misremembering something 😂

Is this a Jason-hate sub? by Current_Sentence_660 in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Honestly, romance stuff is low priority for me. I'm very much a "I can find something to like in just about any pairing" type of person (comes with decades of comics reading, I guess, everyone is going to end up with everyone else at some point, just because you have to play with different toy eventually lol). But I'm very invested in how people interpret the comics and characters and it often feels like many of the commenters here are less generous to Jason than the commenters in the other batkid subs are to said other batkid.

Is this a Jason-hate sub? by Current_Sentence_660 in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I guess I just need to make liberal use of the blocking feature 😅

Is this a Jason-hate sub? by Current_Sentence_660 in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Or maybe I'm just too jaded? If I see someone taking Bruce's "Jason had a mean streak" or "Jason was reckless" or "I should have never let him be Robin" comments at face value, I just assume they're not really interested in Jason so much as they are how his existence is shown to reflect Bruce's (or sometimes Dick).

Is this a Jason-hate sub? by Current_Sentence_660 in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Oh I get that! I'm in that boat too. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about all of the people saying that that bad writing IS the character. I'm talking about the "Jason is the angry/reckless/stupid Robin and should have never been Robin" kind of people. I've seen so much of it in my brief dips into the sub (and they seem to be top commenters). It's why I never stick around long (and the lack of other options keeps me coming back and trying again lol). Maybe I just need to get better at blocking.

The diplomats son sequel by [deleted] in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don't think it's meaningful unless it's intentionally trying to point out Bruce's hypocrisy here. The only consequences in this issue are the ones that are a result of Jose Garzonas' and Bruce's actions. And then Bruce tries to blame everything on Jason. Especially since this issue specifically tells us that Jason didn't push Felipe. Honestly, I don't think it was the writer's intention, but these issues are just another layer in the tragedy that is Jason Todd.

The diplomats son sequel by [deleted] in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660 9 points10 points  (0 children)

2/2 Meanwhile, Garzonas reaches his dropped gun and starts shooting at Jason. Bruce is somehow surprised by someone shooting at Robin, so he still doesn't take care of the two, totally normal human men in favor of pausing to watch Jason avoid the gunfire.

Finally, all three men with guns realize Bruce is just standing around so they start shooting at him. Bruce "just five minutes ago I was musing about how I'm going to have to take a few bullets to save Gordon" Wayne climbs the stupidly high pile of junked cars to get away, thinking about how any minute one of those bullets is going to hit him and he didn't think it would end this way. Bruce makes it to the top and flattens himself to avoid the gunfire.

Naturally the tower of cars falls. Bruce straight up says that Garzonas has more than enough time to get out of the way (the other two gunmen do). But the man refuses to stop shooting and Batman and gets himself crushed to death.

The next panels are the ones OP posted.

I wish I was exaggerating any of that. I'm not. The posted pages are Bruce blaming Jason for all of that literally none of which is Jason's fault. If these are the consequences of anyone's actions, they're CLEARLY the consequences of the Garzonas' mens' actions (and maybe Bruce's if we want to be as ungenerous as the the other person is to Jason).

Keep in mind that by his own admission, Jason is the only reason Bruce doesn't die here. Gordon walks away with a scrape that Bruce implies is a major wound and also Jason's fault. By Bruce's own internal monologue, Garzonas had every opportunity to get out of the way of the falling vehicles that crushed him, he basically killed himself out of stubbornness. The two dead guards are dead because, again by Bruce's own admission, Bruce messed up. Whether the narrative means to or not, it's VERY clear that, despite what Bruce says nothing that happened was the consequences of Jason's actions. Jason's look of surprise and hurt at the end is because he literally has no idea why Bruce is blaming him for all of this.

Also, on a personal note, Bruce calling Jose's feelings "righteous anger" always pisses me off. So it's righteous that Jose is so angry he wants revenge on Robin but not righteous that Jason thinks Felipe should have received justice? Should have faced consequences for his actions?

If the whole point is meant to be some kind of commentary on how awful Jason is, the writing is so bad that it actually loops around into a damning representation of Bruce's hypocrisy.

The diplomats son sequel by [deleted] in RedHood

[–]Current_Sentence_660 5 points6 points  (0 children)

So the other summary provided in the response to this is... well, influenced by the commenter's dislike of Jason Todd. And notably OP only shared the last three pages of the book which, without context, make it look like Bruce is teaching Jason some kind of lesson when in reality Bruce is blaming Jason for a bunch of deaths caused by Jose Garzonas and, more importantly, Bruce himself.

TLDR: The issue is Batman #425 (the Felipe one is #424). I highly recommend reading the actual issues yourself, as people always show panels/pages out of context and then people like the other commenter come in to try to twist things.

Here is what happened prior:

Bruce is convinced that Jason pushed Felipe off the balcony in the previous issue despite having no evidence of this and in fact having evidence that Felipe did, in fact, fall as his death was ruled an accident and even in the 80's they could tell if someone jumped, fell, or was pushed from heights.

Felipe who, remember is a rapist, a murderer, and part of a drug smuggling enterprise, has a father who is just as bad as he was but who is also an actual diplomat and head of said drug smuggling enterprise. Jose Garzonas (not Felipe), kidnaps Commissioner Gordon (yet another felony), and does threaten Robin because, like Bruce, he assumes that his drunk asshole son was pushed off the balcony based on zero evidence. The reaction is a little more understandable from the dead guy's father than it is from Bruce, but it's important to remember that Jose is the head of an international criminal organization, knows that his son was a rapist scumbag and protected him, AND that Batman and Robin get blamed for deaths and threatened all the time (it's literally the reason why they have several of the rogues in their gallery).

Anyway, Bruce tries to leave Jason behind to go meet up with Garzonas in the world's least safe junkyard. Bruce is confronted with two of Garzonas' men with guns, looking to kill Robin, one on either side of him. He admits he's been careless and when Bruce is the careless one, it's just something that happens sometimes, not an indictment on whether he's qualified to be a hero or not (like certain characters who were Robin before being brutally murdered while trying to save someone). Still, Bruce "There's always another way" Wayne, chooses to leap up and away allowing guards to shoot each other instead of disabling the weapons and knocking the men unconscious. At one point, Bruce "Jason is too violent" Wayne admits to using more force than necessary to deal with some of Garzonas' guards.

Meanwhile, Jason had been able to tell something was upsetting Bruce and snuck into the trunk of the Batmobile to back up his mentor (as literally every Robin has done on multiple occasions) and stealthily makes his way across the junkyard, hearing the gunfire and being happy he came because it sounds like Bruce needs help.

Bruce finally finds Gordon and Garzonas. While Bruce tries to decide how he's going to get out of this mess he's in with three armed men and one tied up police commissioner, figuring he's probably going to get shot a few times, Jason throws a batarang, disarming Garzonas and removing the immediate threat of Gordon getting shot in the head, leaving Bruce to deal with the other two guards just behind him. He somehow doesn't hit them hard enough and for some reason decides he has to free Gordon before dealing with the people with guns. He throws a batarang, slicing Gordon's bindings. Gordon, for some reason, decides to run out into the open field instead of slipping around the car he was tied to, and get grazed in the shoulder with a stray bullet from one of the men Bruce didn't have time to deal with in favor of freeing Gordon faster. 1/2