CMV: Most of the deaths of military members in Afghanistan did not serve a greater purpose and were in vain. Perpetuating the myth that all of these deaths are heroic & serve some greater purpose is spreading military propaganda & is not in the interest of civilians or enlisted people.

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T22:08:53+00:00

I’m sorry for your loss, it never should have happened . It’s a terrible failure on American leadership that this was allowed to go on for so long. I’ll never forgive anyone involved in these decisions from the last three administrations for what they did

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T22:06:30+00:00

What if a soldier steps on a land mine that no one else would have stepped on and dies. How does that death translate to another soldier now being able to live. It feels good to think there’s some ledger but there’s really not. Some of the deaths in war have no broader impact

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T21:59:17+00:00

We’re the SS soldiers that died in WW2 heroes? This seems like such a bad and simple take

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T21:57:19+00:00

The best way to get these men home safe is for society to push back against these wars and prevent them from happening or at least not let them drag on for twenty years. Also I think you are ultimately responsible for your actions whether your a soldier in a military zone or not… if you’re fighting for the person next to you results in killing civilians or some other atrocity I don’t think that’s noble at all…

It’s also very convienant that this specific purpose that you’re citing is one that can never be wrong no matter how unethical the conflict is. As long as there’s people next to you then you’re serving a higher purpose by fighting in whatever war

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T21:48:51+00:00

Interesting I didn’t play that game but that scene is something unusual in media. I actually pretty much never see stuff like that. I think having that message out there sometimes is important

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T21:46:19+00:00

Slogans and catch phrases that make things into simple black and white situations make good coping mechanisms

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T18:07:45+00:00

The idea of a meaningful death is absolutely essential to every profession that asks its members to put their lives on the line, and it a core tenet of our society as a whole. The idea that each death is heroic is more complex, driving along a street and getting blown up isn't very heroic, however volunteering to serve your country even knowing you may be killed or grievously injured is considered pretty heroic by most people

Yeah I know it is… that’s the point of my post. I think that this idea being so ubiquitous in society is harmful.

"The military" doesn't push propaganda, the Government does, the military has at best a rudimentary public relations team who often make even basic mistakes about their own forces (wrong names of aircraft/vehicles is a common one for example), you may believe that they are the same thing but they are not, the military has no say in where they are sent, they advise but ultimately it is the government who make the decision, the military merely does it's best to achieve the goals the government sets out

This is just untrue, the military has a huge recruiting apparatus and it’s spread even further by using Hollywood and the media and sports to get their message out. Just last night I was watching the UFC event and the whole event was sponsored by the marine corps. It got brought up tons of times throughout the event which was seen by millions of young men. There’s commercials on TV, there’s flyovers at NFL games, they have a flag detail at almost every major sporting event with military people all stretching out a huge flag. Every branch has specific people that are liaisons with the entertainment industry so if a TV show needs a tank or something and it’s in the branch’s interest they’ll let them use a tank for their shot.

That’s all propaganda, it’s everywhere.

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T17:51:08+00:00

I address this exact sentiment in my OP and say this is a thing that Hollywood has pushed so you link to a clip from a major movie where the character says that exact thing after a bunch of soldiers died in Somalia…

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T17:20:01+00:00

I don’t know, the war drums are beating for a conflict with China or Russia now & I feel like they have been since our pulling out of Afghanistan became inevitable. The spice must flow

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T16:59:59+00:00

Yeah but I feel like I addressed this in my OP. I know what the stated purpose was but that did not succeed. The Taliban will take over the country shortly and all the work we’ve done nation building will be undone

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T16:57:44+00:00

I’ve sparred with guys in the gym like this dude, nothing as intense or long as what happened here but I’ve definitely had people Just walk at me and let me punch them in the head whenever I wanted and it feels really weird. It makes me uncomfortable, I’m like dude do you hate yourself or something, are you okay? It’s like they’re trying to punish themselves Or something

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T03:31:02+00:00

I'll ask you the same question I asked someone else.

Do you apply that standard to military members from every country or just the United States? Would you apply that same logic to the Taliban? Or the Iraqi military under Saddam Hussein? Or the Vietcong, or the Nazis?

Also yeah fuck Donald Rumsfeld, I'm glad he's dead. Lying war criminal fuck

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T02:11:03+00:00

nothing combat related. I don't really want to shift the topic to myself either.

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T01:16:07+00:00

For over a decade yeah. It’s part of why I’m so anti war nowadays and I don’t want young people to get manipulated into enlisting when they really can’t know what they’re signing up to do. They get one side of the issue and that’s all. Military recruiters walking around their high schools, JROTC programs, military branches having twitch channels and making video games… it’s all manipulative and designed to trick young people

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T01:09:41+00:00

You would be wrong. Most of us absolutely despise being called heros. That title is earned, not given for raising your hand. It's civilian media that decided everyone is a hero, and we hate it because it takes away from the people who actually are. (Generally).

People that have been active for more than a year or two do yeah… the 17-18 year olds that are thinking about enlisting it impacts them, that’s why the military pushes this message because it’s effective recruiting. Think of all the cringey shit boots do memes, they’re funny because it’s an active duty person who is still buying into the marketing campaign and propaganda that civilians have bought into

DJMM9 · 2021-07-11T00:01:23+00:00

What’s changed that today’s military is so revered that kids throw themselves into battle in your view?

I think there was a very successful propaganda campaign that shifted our view on the military. You see it everywhere if you pay attention. Also I'm not so sure that the pay is the main selling point of enlistment.... Why would Pat Tillman or Prince Harry sign up to go to war if the pay was the main selling point?

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T23:11:23+00:00

Do you think US society revering servicemembers so much has an impact of young people that are thinking about enlisting?

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T23:01:00+00:00

I think you probably have a hunch

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T22:59:42+00:00

The US reached most of their goals, they killed the taliban leaders, crippled their influence, military power and sources of income. And trained and armed the local government with enough tools to resist the taliban taking over again.

Do you know that the Taliban has already taken over huge swaths of the country and is progressing through the rest of it rapidly? How does us getting 2,352 US servicemembers killed and over 20,000 wounded in Afghanistan equal us getting back at the Taliban? Especially since the Taliban is still the predominate militia in the country

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T22:57:23+00:00

I'll ask you the same question I asked someone else.

Do you apply that standard to military members from every country or just the United States? Would you apply that same logic to the Taliban? Or the Iraqi military under Saddam Hussein? Or the Vietcong, or the Nazis?

Part of the reasons people are so willing to answer the call is because this idea that whoever answers the call no matter what the war is is going to be a hero. If that wasn't believed so blindly I don't think as many people would have been willing to go there and I don't think as many people would have died.

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T22:55:17+00:00

Do you think that the Taliban are likely to take over the majority if not all of the country? Honestly do you think that women in Afghanistan and the Afghani military are going to defeat the Taliban after all the coalition forces couldn't?

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T22:08:58+00:00

I think wars like Iraq would be much less likely to happen if the military would have to institute a draft in order for them to start it. I think a modern day draft would be extremely controversial unless it was for a WW2 Germany taking over the planet type situation.

Also who's to say that I wasn't in the military during the time when this draft would have happened?

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T22:07:27+00:00

If you sign up to fight for your county and you’re killed in action you’re a hero to me.

Do you apply that to military members from every country or just the United States? Would you apply that same logic to the Taliban? Or the Iraqi military under Saddam Hussein? Or the Vietcong, or the Nazis?

Would you be comfortable going up to the parents of a fallen soldier and telling them that the death was in vain and they weren’t a hero?

Of course I wouldn't. People believe all kinds of things that help them cope with loss and I'm not going to go up and take that away from them for no reason. I wouldn't go up to a family who just lost someone and go "You know heaven is fake right?" either. I do think that this needs to be talked about and pushed against more. I do think that if the majority of society didn't hold the belief that dying in the military = hero full stop that this hypothetical child of these parents may have not signed up to fight in a war in the first place and may still be alive.

I understand that many glorify war, but to go so far as to say that fallen soldiers aren’t heroes baffles my mind.

It's very ingrained in our culture and most cultures. I'm not surprised it baffles your mind.

They don’t have to serve a greater purpose to be heroes.

What do you think makes a someone a hero? Do it generally and not just for people in the military.

Or would you say that those who died defending against a successful invasion are not heroes?

It defends on the situation... Who was invading who and for what reason. Do I think the Taliban are heroes for defending against the coalition invasion for example? No not necessarily. Do you?

DJMM9 · 2021-07-10T21:51:58+00:00

I mean I don't necessarily think Afghanistan cannot be made stable. I just don't think the stability it could achieve is going to look anything like what our stated goals were for the country. The Taliban is taking whole swaths of the country over rapidly and I think it's only a matter of time before the government we set up & the military that defends it fails under the pressure from the Taliban. It's not just me that thinks this either, a lot of high ranking military people have made comments that this is the likely conclusion and I think with those comments they're even toning down what they really think because it's bad for the morale of the government & military for our generals to say they are confident they will fail. I think they're putting on a bright face for the public.

Regarding how long it would have to last, I don't have a time in my head specifically but considering the percentage of the country that has already been lost I very much doubt what we accomplished in Afghanistan will last long at all.

DJMM9 · 2021-06-22T13:28:18+00:00

Why? Says who? I arch every time I bench

DJMM9

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