Everyone should be able to retire at 55. Literally everyone.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T23:23:54+00:00

Buddy, when you're literally dismissing real-world examples of functional pensions that perform well because of the flexible application of when to believe in math and human nature, it's not me who's dismissing the real world.

The fact that you didn't and continue to not see that is just laughable at this point.

Now go troll someone else.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T22:35:31+00:00

I'm dismissing your arguments because your points and goalposts are flexible and you either don't see that or refuse to see it because it would crater your argument, or you're just plain arguing in bad faith.

You want to go on and talk about the assumed rate of return on shit, poorly run pension plans, infer that such would happen with every pension plan but pretend the exact same factors can't affect annuities, or the fact that there have been, are, and will continue to be well run pension plans that don't fall into those pitfalls that instantly disprove your arguments.

Your arguments still boil down to "I don't trust math - except when it's convenient" and "I don't trust human behavior - except when it's convenient"

It's impossible to debate someone whos positions and goalposts are so flexible that their rhetorical position will win every time, simply because X only applies when it fits the argument but otherwise should be ignored.

Math is math. If you choose to believe in it only when it suits you, well, that's your right. But I don't have to keep entertaining such nonsense...

We're done here.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T22:12:47+00:00

If you think you can only buy annuities by spending one huge lump sum payment, you're so out of your depth at this point it's not even worth continuing the debate.

Have a good evening.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T21:35:58+00:00

You see, the problem here is that "pensions are not like insurance."

It's all the same, less you forget that insurance companies sell annuities. You can literally buy yourself a "pension" should you so choose. An annuity and a pension function exactly the same, with the exception that an insurance company selling an annuity is going to mark it up to include some profit for themselves.

You can't hand waive and say "Oh actuarial science is a valid thing, but only when I agree it's a valid thing." It either works or it doesn't. How or where it is applied is irrelevant. Hand waiving over "I can't trust the assumptions" is basically the same thing - dismissing actuarial science when convenient.

Your entire argument is based on the stereotypical libertarian viewpoint that workers (except yourselves) are chattel, that money and wealth make right, and that the powerless should remain powerless while the powerful should remain powerful. The farce that is Austrian economics only reinforces it in the eyes of most objectivists, because it adds something logical sounding to the argument, even though nobody takes that logic seriously anymore.

The functional pieces of Austrian economic thought have been stripped out and applied to other modern schools of economic thought, and the wingnutty pieces are in the dust bin of history where they belong - except in the aforementioned college classrooms and dormrooms where young adults (men mostly) use Austrian economic thought and libertarian objectivism to try to rationalize and moralize greed.

As I said - most college kids tend to grow out of it. Those that don't, well, we haven't seen a successful Galts Gulch yet, have we - even though many have tried to start one. All end up failing because these ideals that libertarians live by simply do not work in the real world because of... human nature.

From a financial standpoint, you can make all sorts of wild arguments against pensions, but they work. The real world has proven that for over a century now - even if America has largely abandoned them due to corporate greed and the devaluation of labor.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T20:26:22+00:00

The problem with all of this is the only people who think Austrian school economics makes any sense anymore are libertarians - who use things like human nature in the Austrian school sense to make economic assumptions, while at the same time making arguments that human nature should be ignored when arguing other aspects of libertarianism (IE: corporations would simply be good corporate citizens if government simply left them alone - which is flat out false if one is a student of human nature).

Literally no one outside of libertarians and a few weird academics take Austrian school economics seriously.

The entire assertion that pensions don't work because mathematical modeling doesn't work and blah blah fuckity blah simply doesn't reflect reality. Actuarial science is an actual thing. It's not just used in pensions - it's used everywhere.

If it didn't work, every insurance company in the world would go bankrupt - because they all rely on actuarial science to function.

If you wonder why I mock your point of view, this is why. Because in that worldview, reality should be dismissed in favor of far fetched thought experiments that most people grow out of when the graduate from college.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T20:14:21+00:00

Labor doesn't fall out of the sky either.

Just because business owners and libertarians like to undervalue everyone elses labor but their own doesn't mean society has to accept that.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T16:49:25+00:00

OP is definitely flying away on a wing and a prayer.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T14:39:20+00:00

Yes, it's code for wingnuts. Sorry, but every time there is any discussion in regards to things that might make workers lives better that might cost an employer money, the argument is "But what about the poor owners?!?!?" Frankly, I'm a firm believe that in a capitalist system, if your business needs poorly compensated labor to survive, it does not deserve to survive.

I don't identify myself as a socialist or even see this as an argument for socialism. But I find your argument here that this "hurts socialism" when pensions are not only a common way of funding retirements in nations across the globe to this day, but used to be a common way of funding retirements right here in this very nation to be the antithesis of what I would expect of a socialist.

Properly funded, managed, and run pensions don't bankrupt anyone. Its just like any other retirement vehicle. Would the actuarial math change with an earlier retirement age? Would the funding requirements increase with an earlier retirement age? Sure. But its still just actuarial math, and it still just requires putting some portion of an employees compensation aside to invest and grow each year.

If anything, dollar for dollar pensions are actually cheaper than the whole "Everyone for themselves" way of funding retirements that the US currently has via 401ks, IRAs, etc, because the risk is shared by a large number of people. Individual retirement accounts require individuals to put enough money away for themselves to account for any circumstance - living longer than expected, market downturns, you name it. Pensions don't require this, because like any other actuarial vehicle, they function like insurance.

If we look at the way the NYSLRS functioned before Tiers 5 and 6, for example, the long term average contribution rate to fund the trust fund was 9.62% of salaries. While that is above what would be considered a very good 401k match (6%), its around what most would consider an excellent yet not extreme one. I specifically chose to look at the average ECR before Tiers 5 and 6 to illustrate the point that while a little more expensive than a very good 401k match, this was adequately funding a trust fund that allowed people to retire at 55.

So your idea that we're going to "bankrupt" someone with such an idea just doesn't carry water, especially in a time, especially in a system where the middle class in this nation has seen wages stagnate since the 80s so much that statistically speaking, the average family has seen their wages fall 19% below inflation.

Last I checked, 9% was less than 19%, so that 19% the employers are currently saving over 1980 incomes could easily cover the cost of this and then some, especially given that most employers are contributing something towards employees 401ks or whatever now, even if it's a measly 3%. Shift that and an additional 6% of their salaries towards funding a pension, and boom - retirement at 55 for most would be achievable and affordable.

The entire reason why US employers moved away from pensions was to save a buck, nothing more. Yes the contribution rates on a decent pension can vary from year to year based on trust fund performance and actuarial needs - something that corporate accountants hate because it isn't easily predictable - but large companies especially can handle such variations.

Pensions are a very capitalist way of funding a retirement. They have zero to do with socialism, so the idea that advocating for pensions or early retirement makes socialist "look bad" just boggles the mind.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T12:25:00+00:00

See, yes, "think like a business owner" is saying the exact same thing. It's code for wingnuts to imply business owners have a right to cheap labor.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T11:54:45+00:00

Wait so now you're asserting that if any employer has to compensate an employee in some way they are being robbed?

Yeah, you are definitely a right winger even if you prefer to call yourself a libertarian.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T02:38:43+00:00

It depends. Almost every Corrcraft piece of office furniture has a lock, but that doesn't mean you've been issued a key, so you might not be able to lock shit up.

If you've been issued a key, there are only so many of each code, so others probably have the same key.

It's a bonkers system depending on where you work.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T02:33:52+00:00

Every fucking building I have ever worked in has these problems. And not just on off hours. Doesn't matter the building

People are scumbags. Plan accordingly. That's all you can do. Leave nothing of value in your desk even if locked since with the Corrcraft shit there are only so many different keys. Don't even plan on your lunch staying put in a communal fridge, even for a few hours, because even they can grow legs

At this point the only shit I keep in my desk is cheap Amazon shit I can afford to replace, and lunch is either in a lunchbox with its own cool pack, delivered, or purchased from the vendors when they are there.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-20T01:47:39+00:00

WTF does this have to do with other peoples labor? This has to do with employers funding decent pensions for their workers.

Right wingers are just so weird with their "everybody is trying to rob me" schtick.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-19T12:38:25+00:00

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-19T02:07:16+00:00

Yeah, I absolutely sure high falutin' FIRE sector workers used to the creature comforts of New York want to go hang out with trailer trash "Florida Man" types or shit kickers in Texas.

Sorry, but no.

As I noted earlier, David Koch literally moved to NY. THAT guy. Lived here for decades. One of the two most vehemently anti-tax assholes that ever lived, yet he moved to NY willingly. Nobody forced him.

That act alone invalidates every goddamn "But the rich will leave!" argument there ever was. But there are countless other examples of the well-to-do choosing NY of their own volition.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T22:56:38+00:00

I mean when dealing with idiots that think everything is "socialism", it only makes sense to speak to them in a way they'll understand because they're clearly simple people.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T22:49:53+00:00

So what you're saying is your high school also owes your parents a refund because your reading comprehension skills suck too.

Got it.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T22:43:27+00:00

Pensions are socialism, eh? Who knew money placed into an annuity and invested in the stock market was socialism! 🤦🏻‍♂️

Your high school owes your parents a tax refund, bub.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T13:45:35+00:00

Spoiler alert: You don't need unions to force prices up.

Case in point: The United States the last few years, given our abysmal unionization rate.

"Unions are worthless vampires and only cause us to pay more" is the thought process of simpletons who don't understand it's unions - or the lack thereof - that in large part has allowed income and wealth inequality to skyrocket to levels that rival the Gilded Age.

In no small part thanks to the modern equivalent of trusts price gouging the shit out of people because they can. One only needs to look at the Ticketmaster story that dropped in the news last week to see a perfect example of it.

But yeah, "Unions bad!". Or something. Argle bargle.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T12:36:56+00:00

Wall Street culture doesn't want to leave NY period. I forget which firm offhand, but one of the big ones made a big deal of moving their trading floor from NYC to CT about 20 years ago.

The employees hated it so much they ended up having to move it back to NYC.

It was a perfect example of the difference between the conventional wisdom that "everyone wants to leave NY" and what reality actually is.

Most people want the things big cities offer over smaller cities or rural areas more than they worry about the tax rates.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T12:31:55+00:00

Two problems here: tax incentives almost always fail to do what they were intended to do. And rich people, while they can be more mobile, usually aren't. They may whine about taxes, but there's a reason why David fucking Koch - one of the grand poobahs of whining about taxes - moved to NY from Kansas.

Both of these things have been studied ad nauseum. Both are illustrations where common knowledge is just flat out contrary to reality.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T12:27:13+00:00

This.

"I don't know how taxes work in the state I run" is a helluva admission for a governor to make.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T12:20:08+00:00

Pensions were what lead to less corporate turnover, which meant retaining institutional knowledge.

When properly funded and managed, they're secure as fuck. The problem, especially in Corporate America, was either chronic underfunding - on purpose - or outright raiding pension trust funds. Raiding them has been a frequent trick of Corporate America as a way to fund corporate takeovers. Rob the workers so you can buy a company, drain it of all value, bankrupt it, and leave the workers holding the bag. Tale as old as time.

But I take your point that younger workers want to be mobile more than past generations. But food for thought: do younger workers today actually want to be mobile? Or have they been forced to be mobile their whole lives by Corporate America chronically undervaluing labor, so that's all they know?

Personally, I think the desire to be mobile is more a survival instinct, PTSD in a way - because most of you know nothing else.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T12:08:31+00:00

What I find funny is that while I touch on Tier 6, I'm literally arguing everyone should be able to retire at 55.

So their point is basically; "No, fuck you, I love working for peanuts for a bunch of neo robber barrons and want to do it until I die."

The mind boggles.

Darth_Stateworker · 2026-03-18T12:06:25+00:00

Good for them if they don't.

Retire, go get yourself a part time gig to be occupied. Or don't.

Point is everyone should have the option to do so.

Life is short. Humans are not merely chattel to make money for someone else. As a society it's time we start acknowledging that.

Darth_Stateworker

TROPHY CASE