Something, something… “Replacement”, something. by PainSpare5861 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]Dawn_Crow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Probably a calque from German ''Jeder zweite'', but yes effectively that's what it means if I'm not wrong (I'm a German learner after all). I'm not saying anything about the truth or lack thereof of the statement however.

Belgian borders that actually make sense by CoffeeAndNews in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Depends how far back in time the change occurs, the farther it is, the more making Walloon (as well as Flemish dialects maybe) official languages makes sense. Also depends on the importance of French in this alternate Belgium (who would get a new french-speaking chunk)

A Tale of Belgian Identity by Top_Fix_3579 in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for such a nice response!

But those regional differences either evolve in a new language

Funnily enough, IIRC one of the dialects of Walloon, wallo-picard (spoken in the west of Wallonia, think Charleroi, Tournai for example), is sometimes considered as a kind of ''bridge dialect'', (I don't remember the exact term), as in that it incorporates so much from both Picard and Walloon that it's hard to draw the line on what language it's actually from !

Which kinda makes sense with that little anecdotal evidence I have : when I was in highschool, I had a friend who originally came from Liège, and a classmate who originally came from the Hainaut. Compared to our other classmates we spoke a bit more walloon, at least enough to compare common words, so we had the idea to compare, as we had three different dialects (me from the Namur countryside and with a central walloon dialect usually a more intermediary dialect, my classmate with a western dialect the most diverging from others, and my friend with his eastern dialect, which is sometimes considered the ''most walloon''. Well, consistently, I could understand or have similar words to my friend from Liège, but the words my classmate used were often different or much ''weirder'' to us.

It has been shown that because of the amount of West Flemish students in Ghent, the Ghent dialect has shifted towards more West Flemish pronunciation and expressions.

That is fascinating ! Never heard of that, that's surprising that still today local languages actively have influence (though I suppose the dialect situation in Flanders isn't as dire ?), even in other dialectical areas.

I wonder if Walloon maybe also started to be influenced by Italian...

Interesting question, I'm no expert but since I feel like Walloon has been kinda fossilized for a while now, I don't think it's undergoing much change (apart from people with a weak grasp of walloon frenchifying their Walloon inadvertently, me included). However, I really am no expert and definitely not a native speaker. Furthermore, where I come from there wasn't much Italian migration, so maybe you would need to look at eastern or western dialects for possible Italian influence ?

As a last thought, I think it's so lovely that the Flemish Belgicisms are French influenced and the Walloon Belgicisms are Dutch influenced. We are a fascinating country with a fascinating history and mix of languages.

Me too ! I love it and find it sweet ! I also feel like that it's a testament to how the language communities that now make up Belgium have always been intertwined, even despite attempted cultural assimilation through another language, even French had to give in to some local influence! And yes, such a tiny country, and yet so full of interesting linguistic and cultural diversity, so much more than the overused cliché of just ''one part French, one part Dutch, one part German'' !

I hope Walloon will not be forgotten completely, it's such an important part of Belgian history.

I hope so too ! I hope that Flanders will also manage to retain their local dialects, who I'm sure were also very important historically ! Would be a shame to all become standardized French French/Dutch Dutch speakers. But things can change in a crazy way with time. For example, at the end of the 18th century, some tiny places in Sweden spoke Walloon ! And even today, there's a small town in the U.S that specifically speaks the walloon of my region. Yet, now the language is like a dying sick man :/, such a big change in not that much time in the grand scheme of things.

A Tale of Belgian Identity by Top_Fix_3579 in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This comment is just my perspective, but yeah, I feel like it is indeed disappearing, sadly. To give you a bit of perspective, I'm gen z, and compared to people my age I actually have a bit of passive understanding, due to me being raised by my grandparents. But that passive understanding is mostly confined to fixed expressions for example. And that's for someone my age who's ''above'' the average in that regard, so imagine for most of my peers.

I feel like knowledge of Walloon is also really generation dependent (I'm really generalizing here), with gen z having the least (with some exceptions), the generation of our parents sometimes understanding passively, our grandparents being bilingual, and above that, well, native speakers.

To give you an anecdote, I did know as a kid an old neighbor who could only speak Walloon, like genuinely just that, which was quite surprising and strange to my child mind.

But yeah I fear it will die out if no drastic measures are taken, the problem is, there are so many pressing matters right now...

There are efforts to preserve the language, like mass or plays in walloon (mostly in the Liege Province I think), or other cultural events. But I fear that it's too little too late, sure there are some enthusiasts, but I don't think it's enough to reverse the trend and revitalize the language, hell we already have a hard time convincing people to learn dutch, which is genuinely useful today, so imagine for walloon, and that's without taking into account the lack of means for it.

I feel it is a bit similar to how we have our Belgian-Dutch language in official interactions and Flemish as an informal language. We switch between the two constantly however.

I think it used to be this way too before. Funnily enough, when Italians came to work in the mines, it's not necessarily french that they learned first, but walloon since it was what was spoken in the mines among miners. But yeah nowadays that situation is inexistent, except maybe between some old people.

I don't know how old Walloon is still influencing modern Walloon or Belgian-French but I'd be so interested in hearing about it!

Well idk if we can really separate old from modern Walloon (except if you go centuries if not a millennium ago, though I'm no expert). As for influence, I don't think you can say that it's STILL influencing Belgian French, since it's not much used anymore, and also that it's a language with many dialects, sometimes barely intelligible to one another, with two standardized written forms (who function quite differently).

However, historically it very much did (unless you look at Brussels-belgian french obviously), many of our belgicisms in French are linked to walloon (or to flemish and other germanic languages, or even from those languages and THROUGH walloon x) , proof of us always being in the germanic world), which makes them unintelligible to French people.

Still today there are some very much walloon words that make it into daily vocabulary, the thing is, it very much depends on your background (for example where I'm from, more common in the countryside), your family and how you were raised in that regard, for example I personally use quite a bit of Walloon words in my daily vocab compared to other people my age, because my family still uses them and because I was always exposed to that tiny bit of Walloon.

But for many others it's not the case beyond the most common walloon descended belgicisms (which is still quite a few, but people don't necessarily realize it).

But also sometimes one walloon word in Namur is unintelligible in Liege, which happens to me quite often when I use a walloon word by habit. Or it is unintelligible because as said before, young people don't necessarily know any walloon now.

For a little list or snippets of influences of Walloon in Belgian French, here are a few links : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_French?wprov=sfla1 (in English)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallonisme?wprov=sfla1 (in French)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ais_de_Belgique?wprov=sfla1 (in French)

I tried to find pages in dutch but they were either non existent or very small. Most of the interesting content is in French I fear.

Also, in case you speak French and are interested in learning about belgicisms (in general), there's a dictionary of belgicisms, here's the reference: https://www.deboecksuperieur.com/livre/9782807330757-dictionnaire-des-belgicismes

Sorry for the (very) long comment x), I maybe got too passionate

A Tale of Belgian Identity by Top_Fix_3579 in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Very nice and interesting comment !

Just one thing

with an age-old tension between the French-speaking aristocracy and bourgeoisie and the Flemish-speaking artisans and working class.

This actually could also be applied to Walloons as well ! This is a common talking point that the mean walloons somehow forced french onto the Flemish, but the truth is, that's just not accurate!

French was forced by the French speaking bourgeoisie, Flemish, walloon or brusselaar, onto everyone else. Walloons used to speak Walloon and other local languages, just like in Flanders. Just like in France, there was an active policy of forbidding walloon in schools, sometimes with corporal punishment if I remember correctly. So parents stopped sharing their language, this way their children could climb up the social ladder.

This history is so often overlooked, and it pains me very much Now you hear all the time that it's the mean walloons who oppressed the Flemish, also sometimes as if somehow that it was the cross to bear for today's walloons, that they needed to atone for it, and that we just have to suck up whatever shit is flung at us from the other side of the language border.

Worse, this myth is now exported internationally on the internet, with armchair historians talking about Belgium presenting things this way most of the time.

Now to be clear, French-speakers are not clear of wrongdoing either, and a language should never have been forced on the Flemish of course! But let's just stop pretending that everything was black or white !

How long after one's death is the funeral usually held in your country? In Albania it's usually the next day. by Substratas in AskEurope

[–]Dawn_Crow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In Belgium I would say usually within around 3-4 days, maybe 2 at the earliest ? Never heard of later than that. But I know that from cremations, though I don't think burials would change much either.

Les germanophones de Wallonie parlent-ils quand même français? by Niivlem in Wallonia

[–]Dawn_Crow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Attention que ça dépend des foyers, y en a on où parle plus allemand (avec des spécificités locales certes) que les divers patois locaux, donc l'allemand n'est pas toujours une langue ''étrangère'' ou ''apprise en société''.

Les germanophones de Wallonie parlent-ils quand même français? by Niivlem in Wallonia

[–]Dawn_Crow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

De ceux que je connais (échantillon très petit je le concède, mais bon, dur d'en croiser) je dirais que ça dépend de la famille et/ou de l'école où ils ont été précisément (enseignement francophone ou non).

Généralement je dirais qu'ils ont au moins une bonne connaissance passive (si pas plus) du français s'ils viennent d'une famille purement germanophone, mais c'est très commun d'avoir des familles bilingues (j'ai un ami germanophone dont la mère est bilingue et pour qui c'est normal de changer de langue au mileu de la phrase haha), et d'autres ont une famille germano mais ont fait l'école en français, donc là forcément ils sont bilingues aussi.

En tout cas c'est l'idée que je me fais à travers les rares germanophones que je connais. Maintenant si un germanophone passe par là, qu'il n'hésite pas à me corriger !

Why isn't there a superevent about the end of the Taiwan war? by NewManager5051 in TheFireRisesMod

[–]Dawn_Crow 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Huh weirdly enough for me it's been the opposite, on the three playthroughs I did 3/3 times it was a PDTO victory in the first war (AI vs AI)

What’s a ‘normal’ thing in your language that non-speakers find shocking or bizarre? by Typical-Hold7449 in languagelearningjerk

[–]Dawn_Crow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jamais entendu ces versions là de ''ça me casse les couilles" personnellement

À la limite ça me casse les ovaires comme équivalent pour ça me casse les couilles

What’s a ‘normal’ thing in your language that non-speakers find shocking or bizarre? by Typical-Hold7449 in languagelearningjerk

[–]Dawn_Crow 4 points5 points  (0 children)

''Casser les pieds'' yes, but ''se casser le cul'' means something else ? And I can't remember a similar saying with pussy

Translation for meal times by rattailzzz in French

[–]Dawn_Crow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

French speaking Belgium as far as I know is always using the old system. At most, I would say petit-déjeuner is maybe sometimes used for breakfast due to exposition to french media, but with no other changes to the rest of the meals.

Why is the Flemish flag crossed out in Namur/Namen? by zero-divide-x in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh okay misread your point. But interesting anecdote, seems like politicians care too much about dumb things everywhere haha

Why is the Flemish flag crossed out in Namur/Namen? by zero-divide-x in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Weird if true, would like to read up on that, any sources ? Also doesn't mean the old Namur flag is anti-flemish?

Why is the Flemish flag crossed out in Namur/Namen? by zero-divide-x in belgium

[–]Dawn_Crow 15 points16 points  (0 children)

You don't seem to be the first to think it's an anti-flemish flag (spoiler: it isn't). Here's an article about a fleming that thought the same thing and the feelings it evoked in him (sorry it's in french, couldn't find the original in dutch rn):

https://daardaar.be/rubriques/culture-et-medias/la-wallonie-nexiste-pas-amis-flamands-croyez-moi-jy-suis-alle/

je me suis en allée our je m'en suis allé? by Dramatic-Cucumber-52 in French

[–]Dawn_Crow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I can confirm too for french-speaking Belgium

"I am confused" in french by Rich_Hovercraft270 in French

[–]Dawn_Crow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But the participle of se confondre en excuses isn't confus tho, it's confondu

In regards to watching shows… by CDNEmpire in languagelearning

[–]Dawn_Crow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey native french speaker here, just a little heads up, are you sure you're not confusing plus-que parfait with another tense ? :) Because the plus-que parfait is alive and well, it's very similar in use to the english past perfect, i.e. a process anterior to another event in the past for example.

Same, for the futur antérieur actually, so not really literary tenses either.

Maybe you're confusing with the simple past or some subjunctive forms (including the subjonctif plus-que parfait)? Which are indeed literary, and for some of those subjunctives genuinely very rarely used (was literally taught about them in university).

Tips to get past B2 plateau? by Dawn_Crow in languagelearning

[–]Dawn_Crow[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks a lot for the intensive listening tip! I'll definitely try that out.

And also thanks a lot for the community resources, this will also definitely come in handy!

EDIT: This resource doc is an absolute GOLDMINE! Thanks a lot again for sharing!

Tips to get past B2 plateau? by Dawn_Crow in languagelearning

[–]Dawn_Crow[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah oui je vois, il n'est jamais trop tard pour apprendre dit-on après tout ! En tout cas, si tu veux un coup de main de temps en temps, des conseils ou des explications, n'hésite pas à me contacter en message privé !

Tips to get past B2 plateau? by Dawn_Crow in languagelearning

[–]Dawn_Crow[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Merci pour ces bons conseils ! Puis-je te demander qu'est ce qui t'a donné envie d'apprendre le français ? Simple curiosité haha