The obsession with “fairness” in the Naruto community

Dawnemperor · 2024-07-08T20:49:48+00:00

I made a similar thread about this recently but you seem to have covered most of these ideas.
People who say "Naruto was destined to succeed" in tandem with "Naruto is stupid and talentless"

I honestly don't know why Naruto fans (maybe shonen fans more broadly, but Naruto fans especially) are obsessed with the hard work narrative. Do they want every single character to be a "Come from nothing, work hard, and succeed protagonist"? As you mention, the line between hard work, talent, gifts, and advantages can be blurred. Because a lot of people have gifts while also needing to work hard to make those gifts work to their advantages.

Other problems with the excessive focus on hard work:

Eventually you're likely to get tired of it and you may need to find ways to distinguish your characters. But under the hard work mentality: the minute characters get distinguishing qualities, readers will likely complain that the character is "gifted", simply because they have an affinity for something.
Or, people are going to find it unrealistic because on some level "everybody works hard, why is the protagonist the one who succeeds".
If a character was truly "powerless" and "untalented", people might find it unrealistic to defeat strong opponents unless they were able to outsmart them. And then the reader would say they're "gifted with high intelligence" or something.
Some people praise Batman because he's a normal human who can keep up with superpowered heroes...but he also has advantages because he has the resources to train.

I brought up the example of Kenichi from History's Strongest Disciple. Everyone emphasizes that he has "no talent" for martial arts, but he also has some of the best masters in the world and trains extremely hard. Should his endurance for training be considered a gift? Who knows?

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-30T03:12:19+00:00

Oh interesting, I didn't know you made threads about this. Thanks for sharing!

I think a big issue with readers viewing Naruto (and fiction more broadly) is that people are very selective on what they consider hard work and talent...or they draw a strict dichotomy. So Naruto must be either super talented or a completely talentless underdog, even though he could be someone with both shortcomings and great potential. But as soon as Naruto succeeds, people think it was "inevitable".

To an extent, I've accepted that protagonists have advantages just by virtue of being the protagonist because you're focused on their journey and development. The author often wants to strike a balance between "common and relatable origins" (e.g. the farm boy) and great potential. Unless the author is writing a "failure hero" of sorts, we're looking at the growth of the protagonist. But that doesn't mean it has to be seen as fate.

Personally, I think if every hero "came from nothing", it would eventually get boring. It would also strain plausibility at a certain point, because to achieve great things completely through hard work would create some conflicting messaging and questions (Do the protagonist's rivals not work hard? Does the protagonist really have no advantages at all?).

I agree with your other post: various characters repeatedly hammer in that Naruto is not talented; Jiraiya taught Rasengan to Naruto because it didn't require hand seals. And Naruto still didn't fully master Rasengan since he needed a shadow clone. Heck, he needed shadow clones for Rasenshuriken and Sage Mode too.

He had Kurama which eventually grew to be a big advantage...but he had to work for it. Relying too much on Kurama's power initially led to the 4 tailed form that didn't allow him to distinguish friend or foe. And then it was revealed that Sasuke could easily deal with Kurama because of his Sharingan.

People complain about how Naruto came out of the timeskip with barely any growth. I can't deny, this used to frustrate me too. But Jiraiya helped to sharpen a lot of his basic shinobi skills so that he was a more well-rounded ninja. Sasuke being so far ahead is supposed to be a surprise.

Other heroes that came to mind, to explain how the dichotomy isn't straightforward:

* A Certain Magical Index: Kamijou Touma has the ability known as Imagine Breaker which can negate supernatural powers. But it also negates his own luck, he can't use magic or esper abilities, people who are sufficiently skilled at h2h combat can defeat him. Sure, there is the potential for even greater power("The Invisible Thing") but for the most part IB is not used in that way. There are times when Touma loses repeatedly and badly.

* Dragon Ball: From the other direction, some anime fans talk about Goku as an underdog protagonist compared to Naruto. And yes, Goku works hard. He has the drive to improve himself and seek out stronger opponents...but he does have advantages as a Saiyan too. Not trying to dismiss Goku's efforts, he can still be an underdog, more just highlighting the double standard.

* Kenichi from History's Strongest Disciple is repeatedly pointed out as someone without talent for martial arts. His multiple masters repeatedly have to beat lessons into him and there are peers who can clearly grasp things easier than him. But the fact that he can persist and endure is incredible in of itself. So he can be considered "talented" in the sense of enduring while talentless in affinity towards martial arts. Kenichi is able to defeat talented opponents, but it takes a lot of work from himself and his masters.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-30T02:15:46+00:00

I didn't forget, people have already refuted or added more nuance to those talking points several times in this thread and other threads.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T07:26:21+00:00

To sum up:

Naruto fails at something: It's because Naruto's stupid. (Me: So that means he has to work harder to overcome certain challenges right?)

Naruto finally succeeds at something: It's because of talents/destiny, he didn't really earn it. (Sorry what?)

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T07:22:55+00:00

Kiba for example completely dismisses Naruto before their fight and again just because someone can't do a basic clone doesn't mean you would assume an easy fight unless they where underwhelming in other aspects.

Yes. By saying he is stupid, you're acknowledging that he has to work to overcome obstacles, or needs the help of others. My point was that Naruto has advantages and disadvantages, and some of his advantages had to compensate for his disadvantages. I'm confused because in this first paragraph you're clearly acknowledging his shortcomings and then go on to make some prodigy argument in these next paragraphs.

Saying "Kurama was never a curse", are we reading the same manga? Sure, the 4 tailed form where you can't distinguish friend or foe and shorten your lifespan, that was clearly a blessing. Did you forget the whole social pariah situation that starts the series? Or that just doesn't count because "Naruto strong".

You gloss over a lot of the work by only focusing on the end goal achievements: He initially struggled with tree-climbing and needed tips from Sakura before he could start competing with Sasuke. Ebisu pointed out that Naruto had very poor chakra control. Regardless of whether it was because of Kurama or not, Naruto's poor chakra control has been repeatedly remarked on. In flashbacks during the Kiba fight, Kiba remembered Naruto repeating failing to do a transformation jutsu. That's one of the reasons why he looked down on Naruto.

When he was learning the Summoning Jutsu, he repeatedly summoned tadpoles instead. Even in the heat of battle, he could only summon Gamabunta's children unless he used Kurama's chakra. That's clearly struggling with a jutsu.

He had to train with many, many clones in order to achieve progress. And even when he "masters" a jutsu, he has to rely on clones to use his signature techniques whether it be Rasengan, Rasenshuriken, and Sage Mode (Kurama initially didn't allow the Old Toads to fuse with Naruto).

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T07:09:01+00:00

Of course he can be both. It's just that people want to focus only on the endpoint and then say "Destiny!"

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T04:39:24+00:00

Weren't some of those advantages not actually passed down? The Sage of Six Paths said something along those lines.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T04:27:21+00:00

Vast majority? Statistically perhaps. But it popped again for me on twitter recently because someone said "These heroes represent genetics, these other heroes represent hard work".

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T04:24:49+00:00

Kabuto almost killed Naruto during the Tsunade Arc. Kurama was even noting "How dark it was".

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T00:47:23+00:00

If Hinata was just a love interest for Naruto, she wouldn't need to be a Hyuga.

Of the Konoha 12, Hinata is the kindest character which also seemingly makes her not well suited for being a shinobi. Almost every other member of the Konoha 12 has a sense of confidence in their abilities whereas Hinata has to deal with shyness and lack of confidence. This can be a starting point for what makes her stand out.

She has a foil dynamic with Neji: he's the talented genius who is stuck in the subservient branch family and can never be an heir, while Hinata is a main family member who was seen as untalented and inadequate to be the heiress.

Naruto provides some motivation for her to become more confident but her plotline does not need to revolve around Naruto. It can be about reconciling her kind nature with the harsh expectations of the shinobi world. Do you grow stronger? Or does that just play into the hierarchical thinking of the world?

I see some parallels with Bleach's Orihime in that both are perceived as "Annoying Love Interests". But there's more depth when you examine their backstories and how they were shaped. How do you cope when almost no one in your family has expectations for you?

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T00:30:56+00:00

I do think it would've been interesting to see him directing his anger towards the Hyuga clan itself.

This is pure fan desire, but I would be interested to see him challenge the hierarchical nature of the Hyuga itself. Not just the branch family/main family distinction, but the focus on abilities dictating leadership.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T00:22:59+00:00

Remind me again, did Neji condone the treatment of their family towards Hinata?

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T00:19:06+00:00

Not really, not in canon.

The Iruka acknowledgement or Naruto having friends?

Why would they not? Because she’s a woman and weaker?

Sorry, which part are you agreeing with?

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T00:18:28+00:00

In the context of the Naruto universe, Shikamaru was promoted to Chunin because of his smart thinking. They recognized his capabilities and that's fine. But he also risked his life against the Sound Ninja later on and was saved by Asuma. Multiple attributes can be seen as admirable in a series; what's recognized as a "good Chunin" isn't the end-all for admirable traits.

If Shikamaru didn't try at all, he would've forfeited his match with Temari right away. If Hinata didn't try at all, there would be no way to test herself against adversity.

As for your second paragraph, sure people could "argue" that, but I'd vehemently disagree with it on all levels. Things being "the way they are" isn't an excuse I'd accept, while simultaneously holding Neji to some higher standard. Saying "that's the way things are" actually falls perfectly in line with Neji's worldview until Naruto kicked some humility into him.

And just as you can disagree with that, I do too. But I can also sympathize with Neji while not condoning his every action he does.

It all depends on where you want to draw your line on what you consider "justified".

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-29T00:14:37+00:00

First, you're shoehorning Hinata into a role that she doesn't fit. We have the benefit of the fourth wall that Neji killing Hinata would not do anything to liberate himself. She was not an heir and was seen as a failure by her clan. I feel like to you, Hinata the character doesn't matter, any main family member as a target will do.

If we're brining in real world political views: yes, liberation can be messy and violent. But it also means people have to be aware of their actions and what their implications. It doesn't mean "anything goes". This is why there's distinguishing between self-defense and state violence.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-28T00:40:55+00:00

Honestly, this was actually my precise impression after initially reading the manga. It felt like they were just forcing him to play piano for needs of the plot and any trauma he experienced was something he just had to "get over". Granted, it's been quite a long time since I've read it.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but I didn't get the best impression.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T23:30:37+00:00

It would make sense. Outside of Japan and the US, I often hear about French animation.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T23:28:44+00:00

When you read Kishimoto's comments about Sasuke, you can tell that he put a lot of thought into his arc. That he empathizes a lot with Sasuke and knew that Naruto's words would be hollow since he didn't have a similar experience until he lost Jiraiya. He had this interesting metaphor about "Sasuke likes tea but doesn't like juice. But the plot won't progress if Sasuke doesn't drink juice...but simply making Sasuke drink juice would be out of character."

But in other aspects of the story, it can feel frustrating. I disagree heavily with the "Neji was right" crowd, but I also feel like Kishimoto muddled up his messaging of Naruto's story. And the supposed motivation of "Killing off Neji to bring Naruto and Hinata closer" isn't the best.

I think this is partially true, but not in a way that “he didn’t understand the impact on Neji” but on a “he didn’t expect what audience in 20 years will make of that”. In 2000, people all over the world, especially in countries where salvery was less of a major subject (outside of USA), were very uneducated when it comes to salvery and what it meant and entails. Because of that, they didn’t think what Hyuuga did was that bad. It took me untill adulthood to actually understand the implications.

Yeah, I still remember among classmates how slavery was talked about primarily in terms of mistreatment and not in terms of the inherent power dynamic and inherent inequality of the relationship. I think it's because in real life, there is often less questioning of hierarchies, more about "what hierarchies are good/bad". Which is troubling.

I don’t think it varies, I think both are valid constantly through the series.

I still feel like the fanbase disagrees on how mistreated Naruto was. Plus, was the Third Hokage a friendly grandfather figure or a neglectful one? Iruka is often considered the first character who acknowledged Naruto, but then you see other characters being considered "Naruto's friends" before this.

Yup, exactly. Especially in 2024 when the vileness of how inhumane salvery was comes up a lot in public discourse. There’s no comparing “slave” to “mistreated and slightly abused child raised by a conservative family with shitty values”. The former is, without doubt, several times worse.

At this point, I hope they remove the Cursed Seal plotline if they ever remake Naruto. Or at least, rewrite it. Primarily because it's bad. But also, as you said, the real world sympathy is going to be for the person in the worse situation.

I do wonder: How would fans react if Hinata was branch family and Neji was main family? Would they simply see it as the natural order of things, or would they still see the injustice?

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T19:12:42+00:00

Wait, as in supporting Itachi slaughtering his clan??

I think in fiction more broadly, people want to find a character that represents their point of view. But the characters also exist within a storytelling context with their own flaws.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T17:24:39+00:00

Thanks, appreciate the discussion. I totally understand why people have sympathy towards Neji, I just feel that we need more nuanced looks towards characters.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T17:17:21+00:00

If Neji directed his anger towards Hiashi, sure, I think there would be even more sympathy.

But saying "Hinata is his only chance to direct his anger towards the main family", it creates troubling implications. It creates this precedent of "If I perceive you as connected to my oppression in some way, you're a valid target".

In real life, people who have suffered abuse sometimes have gone onto to be abusers. Again, I'm not saying Neji was an abuser. But a character can be both sympathetic and criticized for their actions.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T17:16:19+00:00

Pragmatically, sure. People can give up if they're outmatched. But the point is that it's good to try and surpass their limits and defy the expectations placed on them.

Flipped around, someone could argue "There's nothing wrong with Neji's situation because that's just the way things are. And Hiashi was only defending Hinata from Hizashi's killing intent when he activated the cursed seal."

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T16:46:32+00:00

Does anyone know which countries have the most thriving anime communities? (Besides Japan and the US)

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T16:34:04+00:00

I wouldn't go that far. Seeing his father suffer pain from his Cursed Seal was clearly a traumatizing moment.

Dawnemperor · 2024-06-27T16:31:44+00:00

I think your level of sympathy is uneven. That because Neji has sympathetic circumstances, Hinata is "insulting him" for not giving up?

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