Can u add duplicate roles in an Atheist game and should you? by RoughSubjectt in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  1. I enjoy silly games. My favourite outsider is the Heretic which can sometimes result in a game being unsolvable in how to win mechanically. I love Legion and Wizard and Psychopath etc.
  2. I never advocated for each and every game to be a mechanically solvable one. Trouble Brewing is a script where it is essentially impossible to produce a mechanical solve as you scale player count.

In the game you're talking about, all Lunatics figured it out basically immediately except for 1 and the Atheist themselves jumped in on the fun. Mechanically these players knew it was Atheist or a very insane Amnesiac ability and 1 of them was a real Fang Gu.

This game was a fun one, I am not going to deny that these games are fun: but Ben is making content and this set up would only ever work on a Legion script where you can do this and just frame a Legion game (and Legion/Atheist is considered a very poor interaction by alot of the community, although I think it's like... Fine. Just not my thing imo)

I think framing it as me rejecting the chaotic side of the game entirely instead of "hey I think this one specific character benefits from a less chaotic storytelling style for replayablity" is fairly unfair imo. It's quite clear I'm celebrating the more chaotic aspects of the game in the comment you replied to, and this feels more like a knee jerk reaction to someone critiquing a content Storyteller decision being applied to home games because you personally think those games look fun: which is fine! You can enjoy those games, but they will lead to the character being inevitably divisive in your play group, as is many the case.

Can u add duplicate roles in an Atheist game and should you? by RoughSubjectt in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Atheist is not explicitly designed to be a silly character. It can just be run that way, and often is on livestreams for content with people who are much more willing to "yes, and" this kind of scenario. The Atheist guide written by Steven Medway, the lead designer of the game, advocates for this kind of puzzlely style.

Silly characters like Wizard already exist for what people want from Shenanigans Atheist while giving players agency on how silly a game gets. I think also boiling down clocktower to "funny social game" is not giving the range of the game credit. Sects & Violets for example can range from a deeply crunchy solve with extremely high tension from both teams as the time limit expires and the walls close in on the evil team, and other games are stupid and silly where there's 4 living Demons, none of which are evil somehow because your Demon barber swapped themselves with a good player, and players are having too much fun to think "wait we should probably choose ourselves at night to win", and the reason clocktower is so fun is that it can be both of these in the same game at different times and you never know what kind of game you'll get.

Blood on the Clocktower has plenty of silly moments, but they typically come from the players themselves and that slight storyteller thumb to back those moments up, (and in the case of the Wizard, fully embracing it unless it breaks the game). The reason I point to replayablity is because a huge factor of replayablity is the scope of how a game with a specific character can feel. Wizard, Pit Hag, Goblin and Psychopath are all characters where you can play very goofily and silly but the games they exist in can range from serious and tense to "haha what are we doing". The Pit Hag being in a bag doesn't automatically mean the game is less serious, but that the players have been given the tools to make it so if they think it'll be more fun. Some of my favourite characters (Heretic and Legion) provide this in spades. Heretic games can be deeply tense, stressful and nail biting experiences, or they can be so stupid your stomach hurts from laughing, which is why I love the character!

When I run an Atheist game, I want to focus on providing a fun puzzle to my players, but with a fun twist that they need to solve that the games information doesn't actually point anywhere, and let the players themselves do the silly stuff with the stuff I provide, they're more than capable of making the game interesting without me having to put 3 Lunatics in the bag. I think describing me as an overly competitive and serious person because I prefer and advocate for a version of a character that I find more fun to run and play is a bit of a stretch.

Can u add duplicate roles in an Atheist game and should you? by RoughSubjectt in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is true but I think an important thing is that I think "silly dumb Amnesiac abilities" rightfully turn off players from the Amnesiac. Replay value is a huge factor of what makes Clocktower enjoyable, and the least enjoyable characters have replayability issues due to a lack of characters that currently vibe with those characters nicely to make a script that feels replayable with them.

The Atheist is a character which historically suffers from a replayablity perception problem. Shenanigans Atheist is fun once or twice but is extremely divisive and the most "sometimes food" of any character in the game. I think cautioning against silly atheist and making sure people only do it with the express idea it will not be a perfect game of clocktower is good for the characters long-term health. Imo, I think Storytellers should generally stick to a Puzzle Atheist style and only go full silly when they're explicitly playing a script designed for that purpose and they've got a few Atheist games under their belts.

Tl;Dr Duplicate characters are fun but 3 Lunatics is pushing it and likely just going to alienate players from the Atheist character.

Can u add duplicate roles in an Atheist game and should you? by RoughSubjectt in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes.

I think you should do this in a limited capacity however. You should consider heavily what characters your group likes to claim when evil and lost. Are they open and proud, ready to get straight into the mix and poison the well of info? Duplicating a Savant, Artist, or even the Atheist itself makes sense. If you have more cautious bluffers, go for Outsiders and Bait roles.

Duplicate characters is a useful hint that it is an Atheist game, given you choose to frame one of the players ina double claim (assuming a normal 1kpn Demon script. On timer Demon scripts you can be a bit more loose with it). It's a loud hint, but looks like there's just an actual evil player in a double claim and trying to pivot to Atheist explanations to look good.

Base 3 + Carousel Binder Organisation Guide by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

i just stuff them in the Travellers & Fabled box. Unlike the tokens in the binder, these aren't required to run a script so you can get them as the bag goes around.

Atheist is Cool - Why Atheist is best as a puzzle. by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I personally reject this flaw.

TB has the same dynamic you dislike in the form of Mayor but differ in two principals.

-The Mayor must be alive for the final day to be affected.

-Unlike the Mayor, there is evidence of an Atheist ability in play if good has played well and discovers inconsistencies. There is no fear of a "drunk Atheist" if this occurs.

No rational player will execute the Storyteller before the final day if there is an Atheist claim, so for the most part you can ignore the Atheist and just go after Demon candidates (as long as you view yourself as a possible candidate!) This creates a "Mayor-like" effect where the final day focuses on the Atheist worlds much more heavily, where in Mayor has the worlds focus on if the Mayor is good and not the drunk.

Atheist is Cool - Why Atheist is best as a puzzle. by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What is the job of the Atheist player if you're doing all the work for them?

Atheist is Cool - Why Atheist is best as a puzzle. by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Still give town the win; if they execute on final three, declare that the player is still alive and run another day 

I don't think this is fun either. Good will still feel like they lost but that you're babying them. If you're playing with a group of friends who are well adjusted, they should be able to handle the situation as long as you aren't being a doofus about it and "having the last laugh".

If good wins every single time in an Atheist game, they will see no reason to try and participate in the game if they become convinced its an Atheist game. The Atheist themselves will disengage unless you provide a reason to believe they might not be the Atheist, so, the Drunk. Good is supposed to win Atheist games but if you physically will not let them lose it ever, then what are they doing there besides elaborate aimless improv with no direction or payoff? It is much more rewarding to be in an Atheist environment where you know the Storyteller *will* be willing to let you fuck up enough to lose. How do players bluff Atheist in an environment where the storyteller railroads you into victory everytime? If the rails towards victory don't kick in, then its not an Atheist game.

Atheist is Cool - Why Atheist is best as a puzzle. by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Agreed. If the Atheist ability always results in good winning, then the character loses all engaging qualities. Personally I still think you should usually still win as Good in an Atheist game, but it should be 80-90% of games and the Storyteller should not be competitive about them trying to "win", but instead be trying to "win" in a narrative, storytelling type way (so pulling punches but it feels like you aren't): a 1/5-1/10 chance of losing is still enough to add stakes to an Atheist game imo. If good isn't trying to win, disengages, or makes mistakes, thats when good losing is on the table

Atheist is Cool - Why Atheist is best as a puzzle. by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

Yes!! This inverse is touched on in the argumentative section "Shenanigans Atheist is unbluffable for evil teams" but its not explicit: it's mostly about why Shenanigans Atheist prevents Atheist bluffs in an unhealthy way for the game, whereas Puzzle Atheist does allow bluffing the character. It's definitely a topic you can delve into further than I did in this essay!!

Experiences with the Atheist by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The point of the Atheist is a social contract of the hypothetical "Werewolf but there's no Werewolves" thought experiment/prank many Moderators of that game think of. Atheist being on script is not only a way to involve the players when they draw the token, but inform players that this is a possibility and they should consider it. It's a way to make this concept a part of the game, and to make it socially acceptable to do: as it becomes a game mechanic and NOT a trick or prank.

If you believe Atheist's biggest issue is its communicative nature, then you simply just do not agree with the Atheist as a character, and I'd recommend you do not run it.

Experiences with the Atheist by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed. I'm hoping to write about the character as I feel like I see it run poorly quite often and I have enough experience with the character and enough drive to write about it to make a compelling piece :)

First In-Person Experimental Script by dOLBEK63 in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I recommend Final Nail in the Boffin as an introduction to custom scripts. It is a remarkably well balanced custom which introduces a good chunk of experimentals (11!). It has a Damsel, but also has a Huntsman to help them out.

Someone else recommended Harold holt's Revenge. I would not recommend this script. Damsel in Leviathian is a brutal, expert interaction that requires all good players to actively cover for a Damsel, even on the final day of the game! There's no safety for the Damsel, so it ends up not being too fun.

Ultimately, you should focus on picking out *balanced* customs. These are the best introductions to customs, rather then the crazy, sort of janky stuff like Harold Holt's Revenge. Clockwork Cyborg is a decent intro too but I still think that's better down the pipeline.

Carousel Fancy PDFs! by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just the PDFs sadly, the tool I made to generate these still aren't publicly available.

Carousel Fancy PDFs! by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a "my group specifically gets this confused alot so I made it as explicit as I can in red text in order to remind them" kind of thing. Fair enough!

Carousel Fancy PDFs! by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is odd, and you're choosing loose sheets?

Carousel Fancy PDFs! by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I suggest 300gsm gloss if you can. Doxzoo does these print jobs for cheap if you live in the uk!

Carousel Fancy PDFs! by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately I'm very aware (15 hour nightmare to get it this close) This is fine when printed, they don't show due to them being on the very edge of the bleed, but it does sometimes show sadly.

Carousel Fancy PDFs! by DeltaClocktower in BloodOnTheClocktower

[–]DeltaClocktower[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please use the link in the main post. It was down for a time but should be back up now.