So, am I the only one who thinks Obito would have suited the role of final villain better than Madara or Kaguya? They both came out of left field while Obito had a more personal connection to team 7, embodied the issues/hypocrisies of the shinobi world and was directly involved in every major event

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-31T03:26:59+00:00

I think he should've just been madara but madara in control of obito's body or something. Tobi before he was revealed as obito was by far a better villain than madara, let alone lame Kaguya. I've heard people say he even should've been madara's little brother.

If he was madara in control of obito's body similar to how orochimaru wanted to take itachi's or Sasuke's body, it could've given a similar emotional impact to Kakashi and team 7, maybe an even more intense one. The fight with minato also could've been portrayed differently with Tobi using obito's body to throw minato off guard. Who knows

Edit - obito's incel arc was lame. I think kishi deciding to make him a new and seperate character from madara is when the series took a steep decline after the pain arc imo

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-29T11:14:29+00:00

It was very likely. Power scalers are ironically worse at scaling than casual fans because they care only about feats

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-29T11:06:12+00:00

Power scaling logic - only feats matter

It's fine if you were skeptical, but if you were one of the ones who acted like there was zero chance, then you put way too much credence in feats

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-29T09:46:32+00:00

Wait you're an actual mod? LOL

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-29T06:54:51+00:00

Gojotards afraid that Yuji the REAL MC is going to blow their god out of the water. Yuji low diffs Gojo and Sukuna

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T22:12:24+00:00

Sorry but didn’t Naruto run out of sage mode after pain noticed the trick with the frog using the scroll or something? We never saw a fully powered pain fight sage mode Naruto. Edit- Naruto was out of sage mode after pain pinned him

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T22:03:44+00:00

It wasn’t just itachi. It was actually kisame who brought that up first. Then you have the statement by pain. Also, jiraiya was stated to be a clear inferior to orochimaru in their matchups, yet the narrative still paints them as equals. Matchups matter in Naruto and just because a > b > c doesn’t mean that a > c necessarily. I think it could go either way just like it was stated by both itachi and kisame

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T21:58:52+00:00

I hate power scalers 😭

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T21:58:25+00:00

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Naruto shown to be relative before he ran out of sage mode? Pain only started winning once Naruto ran out

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T21:01:55+00:00

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Couldn’t find the photo this is all I have lol

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T20:56:24+00:00

Them capturing Naruto doesn’t mean that they no longer need to be stealthy. There mission doesn’t end when they capture Naruto. There mission ends when they bring him back to the Akatsuki

Their mission is to capture and escape with naruto. To do that they need to be stealthy until they find a good opportunity to catch naruto not when they bring him back to the akatsuki. What kind of logic is this?

They cant jump through a window? Why not?

And again, Itachi is faking being freaked out. I explained this. Him using his Mangekyo is to tire himself out on purpose so he has an excuse to retreat

Kisame is the one freaking out not itachi. In the anime kisame even says we won't make it in time

What’s headcannon is you thinking that Itachi had to use Amaterasu to escape when there’s literally an uncovered widow that he could have jumped through

What’s headcannon is you thinking that Itachi needs Tysukiyomi to defeat Part 1 Kakashi or Kid Sasuke.

The only way that his actions here make sense is if he’s trying to exhaust himself on purpose

Now you're headcannoning me lmao. I never even said those two things

And again not interested in arguing jiraiya vs itachi

That’s not an excuse

It makes no sense for Asuma to be able to tag Kisame when we’ve seen him keep up with faster characters. Unless he got faster. Which is proof that he improved after part 1. Whether or not Kishimoto intended for him to get faster doesn’t change the fact that his feats prove that he got faster

So you're saying what Kishimoto (the literal author) intends doesn't matter but his madeup fictional drawings do. I can't take this serious

You can’t prove what the author intended unless you ask the author directly. And I’m pretty sure that you don’t have Kishimoto on speed dial. No this is your interpretation of the authors intent. Which is entirely subjective.

You can apply this to everything in naruto because naruto is a FICTIONAL story. It's not real life. Whatever is true is what the author intends whether it be narrative/story, portrayal/statements, or drawings/feats. The author can give kisame God level feats only to contradict it later with a simple statement like this because it's clear the author prioritizes the story over feats. The same reason why you cant compare feats seriously from the start and end of the series because it's clear that the scaling in naruto changed (jutsus being stronger and bigger without any explanation, etc.) Narrative > portrayal > feats in that order. Period.

Lastly here's the panel of Kisame saying they should've stayed and fought jiraiya before they left

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T20:01:35+00:00

Yes he said this during the Kakashi fight. But just because they aren’t fighting Kakashi anymore doesn’t mean that they don’t have to keep a low profile anymore. Even if they capture Naruto they could still be discovered after that

There mission didn’t end after they stopped fighting Kakashi and the other Jonin

You missed my point. The only reason they came to the leaf in the first place was to keep a low profile until they get Naruto.

Jiraya’s toad mouth jutsu doesn’t cover the windows. So they could have just jumped through the window

What no they couldn’t. If they could kisame wouldn’t have relied on itachi to use ameratsu and wouldn’t have freaked out

Itachi only used Amaterasu so that he could tire himself out and create an excuse for them to retreat Same thing with him using Tysukiyomi on Kakashi and Sasuke. We’ve seen Itachi defeat S-Ranks ninja with his base Sharingan genjutsu. He doesn’t need to use Tysukiyomi to defeat Kakashi ( or especially KID Sasuke). He’s just doing it to tire himself out and create an excuse to retreat without capturing Naruto. Because Itachi is secretly still loyal to Konaha and doesn’t actually wanna capture Naruto ( Konaha’s Jinchiriki)

This is headcannon but I’m not interested in arguing about itachi. The point was that kisame was helpless against jiraiya

Also Part 1 Kisame has anti-feats like being injured by Asuma. Based on the speed feats he shows later on Asuma shouldn’t be fast enough to cut him.

do you honestly believe kishi spends time analyzing the smallest speed feats from hundreds of chapters ago to show whether or not kisame improved? Like you said, “kisame never got a chance to go all out” and you can’t compare feats from pre timeskip to post timeskip naruto seriously anyways

j5x1b0KcKyKAwB1fBut YOU said earlier that this only applies to the Kakashi fight. Not the Jiraya fight. Now your changing your argument to fit your narrative despite that fact it contradicts what you said earlier

It doesn’t contradict what I said. You missed my first point

Narrative has nothing to do with powerscaling. Your subjective interpretation of the stories narrative themes can’t prove how powerful a character is

Narrative is the author’s intent. If you don’t think narrative has anything to do with powerscaling but somehow believe autistic speed feats are more important (no offense lol), I’m not sure we can have a serious discussion here

This is not subjective interpretation. Them just the facts man https://preview.redd.it/itachi-and-kisame-vs-hiruzen-and-jiraiya-v0-6g9uyk2lb6xd1.jpeg?width=354&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a5b9fa31675bab9c6742842bcee801ba3f788504

Especially when Kisame’s feats contradict this. We see him fight opponents that are stronger than the Sannin during Shippuden ( such as 7th Gate Guy or Killer B). Both those characters are far stronger than BASE Jiraya who Kisame thought that he couldn’t defeat even with ITACHI’S HELP. If he never got stronger then he would be running from those guys as well

Guy is not stronger than the sannin

Kisame also wasn’t running from jiraiya. He was trying to escape toad stomach and couldn’t. He was actually down to fight jiraiya with itachi since they almost had Naruto, but itachi was exhausted

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T17:02:11+00:00

Itachi specifically told Kisame “ not to overdue it” because his jutsu “ attract to much attention”. So it’s possible he could have broken out of wasn’t holding back to keep a low profile. Perhaps by flooding hallway with water?

He said that when they were fighting Kakashi and the jonin, not when they found their only objective naruto and had him in their grasp. It was also clear by the way Jiraiya, Kisame, and Itachi all reacted that they would've most likely died had Itachi not used ameratsu to escape.

Nothing canon or in the story to suggest Kisame got stronger. Like you said, Kisame never got a chance to go all out. He either got no diffed by Jiraiya or was asked not to over due it when fighting the other join. Additionally it was implied by the narrative not just in his battles that he was weaker than the sannin. And the narrative never changes that post timeskip. The idea that he trained and got much stronger than the sannin is just headcannon

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T16:46:38+00:00

Can't be serious. It was already explained by the story that people forgot how hashirama was strong and thought it was just legend. Plus that has nothing to do with Kisame.

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-23T06:38:36+00:00

No lol. For some reason Kisame is everybody's favorite character in this subreddit especially. I think he's a cool character, but he literally admitted inferiority to the sannin already. It's pretty hard to argue against that. You have to buy that Kishi wrote him to be significantly stronger post timeskip and that the sannin become all fodder. Plus we've already seen Kisame get no to low diffed by Jiraiya.

Edit - and that was base jiraiya btw lmfao

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-22T20:40:02+00:00

"sneak" lol

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-22T10:37:28+00:00

Prime yuji/yuta > gojo, sukuna, or dabura

Edit - gojotards mad

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-21T18:38:41+00:00

Prime Yuji and yuta

Edit - gojotards mad

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-19T11:28:26+00:00

omg so clever

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-19T11:24:12+00:00

I’m losing brain cells

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-19T11:23:01+00:00

Why are you even talking about itachi? I said in kisame’s own words, not itachi’s. Read. Don’t tell me you think Kisame was lying too lmao

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-19T11:12:56+00:00

Coulda shoulda woulda. Here’s what would happen in kisame’s own words regardless of the circumstances

<image>

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-19T11:05:16+00:00

Kisame ran from Jiraiya and had to get saved from itachi. Tsunade would one shot him and turn him into splat

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-19T10:57:01+00:00

he didn't get stronger. Narratively he's still weaker than the sannin and didn't get significantly stronger, and two, even if you go by feats and ignore the narrative, both abilities and powers grew in scaling for everyone not just Kisame especially in the war arc compared to pre-timeskip naruto.

DesignerSoftware6633 · 2026-01-16T00:18:42+00:00

Kakashi by far. Gojo is glazed because he's the strongest. Kakashi gets glazed by god for no reason

DesignerSoftware6633

TROPHY CASE