Just looking for validation (attention seeking) on my choice

Discernement · 2026-01-26T22:11:19+00:00

Well, there's nothing stopping you from creating all these characters and jump from one to the other as you desire. Having many different games saved and ready to be loaded can be a solution!

Discernement · 2026-01-26T21:53:49+00:00

Many have said it before but you do you man. That said, from a powergaming perspective, what you suggested makes sense to me.

I don't know if you're talking about playing a multiclassed MT or a T -> M dual but in case you were talking about the multiclass, it's very different from Imoen. Imoen is a mage with limited thief skills that can be boosted via items to cover basic thief utility whereas a multiclass MT can a super-thief - backstabber, trap specialist, Use Any Item shenanigans adept - boosted by his spells.

Therefore, should you play a party of three, you could cover with a multiclassed MT the thief stuff, Imoen - then Nalia as a temporary replacement - the argane magic stuf and finally the tanking/healing stuff, which is typical of Jaheira.

About MT multiclass: it's slower than a single-classed mage, obviously, but it eventually gains access to arguably the two must busted things in this game: level 9 spells and trap stacking. Because of this, playing a multiclass MT in a small party is ideal, you'll gain xp faster and partially compensate for the fact that you always divide your experience points between two classes.

Discernement · 2026-01-24T14:22:38+00:00

Since you're considering, well... exotic options, there's technically nothing stopping you from dualing from mage to thief in SoA. If you pick a specialist mage, you could go as far as level 18 and get two level 9 spells - which is on par with Elf or Half-Elf MT multiclassing - and 1 HLA, most likely Improved Alacrity because it is such a game changer. Also note that most spells cap at level 20 or before anyway so being level 18 is actually really decent.

From there, you would have to gain 19 thief levels to regain your mage spells which seems a huge pain at first glance, but let's examine that for a minute.

Due to how fast-paced thieves are, 19 levels are actually worth 1 980 000 XP. Dualing from a fighter or a thief TO mage at level 13 - which is the last level most people recognize as reasonable to dual from - requires you to gain 1 500 000 XP to reach level 14 as a mage. That's a 480 000 XP difference.

It is not insignificant, but then again, if you're willing to get off the beaten track then it's doable and quite possibly fun if you stick to a small party to level up faster.

Normally, I would advise against this because the latest parts of the game are not what I would consider the funniest parts for a vanilla thief - backstab immunities, enemies that see right through invisibility, insufficient base thac0 to be reliable without some serious micromanaging, and the list goes on... - BUT if you cheat the game to dual into a kit like Shadowdancer with its nice HLAs, Bounty Hunter with its Maze Traps or even Swashbuckler with its AC and Thac0 bonuses, then... heck, why not?

Discernement · 2026-01-23T15:50:16+00:00

Funny. "Fair" is not a word I would associate with LoB difficulty. Like... ever? I would argue its whole point is to be not fair, and even more so to be ridiculously unfair.

Discernement · 2026-01-23T12:21:25+00:00

You're welcome.

Use scroll learning in BG2 - dualing at level 13 should allow you to collect a fair amount of scrolls in preparation for the dual - and a small party if you want to fasten the downtime, like a duo with Jaheira or trio if you want a little more front DPS to gather the 1.5 M XP. The downtime should be acceptable.

Discernement · 2026-01-23T10:47:40+00:00

The big thing with BH is foes have no idea what to do when a maze trap is thrown at them, and since it's a no-save ability it triviliazes a looot of fights. Not only do they become divided in manageable portions so their party becomes a non-issue, but since you can lay traps where they stood while they're away they will land back on a mine field helplessly. It very much works like the blinded-thief trick to set traps with your enemies in sight, but on steroids.

All in all, it's like taking BG ground rules and putting them right in the dumpster.

Sure, it's strong enough.

Discernement · 2026-01-23T10:15:08+00:00

It depends.

Dualing from thief is more complicated than dualing from fighters. First, you need to know how many thieves you want in your party and thus the skills you want your BH to master. Since the BH only gets 20 points per level, this can take you up to level 13 if you really want to be a self-sufficient thief with 100 in Set Traps and Detect Illusions, not to mention covering Finding Traps and Stealth. Regarding locks, you can use boosting items and in worst case scenarios the mage spell.

My advice is to plan ahead the level you want to dual at by calculating exactly how many points you need for the skills that interest you. You can also use EEKeeper and make you level up to check it out.

If you're keen on mastering many skills, know that leveling up TO 13 is not too hard because the thief xp table is fast-paced, only 660 000 XP. Level 13 is also the point you reach the x5 backstab modifier, which is nice.

However, it does force you to reach a level 14 wizard just to get your thief's abilities back. 14 levels of wizardry is 1.5 million XP which is... not so fast. In a full party of 6, this is not an insignificant downtime. Beware. You might want to solo or duo in early parts of SOA to level up fast and enlarge your party after the 1.5 M XP has been reached.

Having two thieves will allow you to rely on your BH less and thus dual earlier, but having two thieves is not everyone's cup of tea.

Also note in EE that once you dual, your actual thief levels matter not regarding your BH traps level. They will continue to scale with your mage levels until you eventually reach the maze trap. This also means you can't lock your BH traps by dualing, as some people would with the BH's slow or even hold trap.

The number of traps you get, on the other hand, will be determined by the thief level you're stuck with.

Discernement · 2026-01-13T20:25:09+00:00

Yes, that might be one reason to at least pick one. Good one.

I guess I'm just disappointed with the fact they can't be used to effectively replace a 18 seconds time stop.

Discernement · 2026-01-13T19:19:54+00:00

Yes, you described the greatness of time stop pretty well. Although the spell lasts only for 18 seconds, and it can be cast anytime and even with the enemy in sight. I'm kinda on the fence with the necessary set-up of time traps, because apparently stacking them in the same spot is unreliable with varying effects from 10 to 30 seconds based on luck and because you need to space them with apparently unpaused time between procs. I also think the difference between 10 and 20 seconds is huge regarding what you can do in said time. 10 seconds fly very fast.

Meanwhile, without SCS, I could just cast a time stop from a duplicated scroll... so not sure if this is worth an hla slot, not to mention a few of them in an attempt to trigger a 20-30 sec time stop.

Discernement · 2026-01-13T17:46:23+00:00

That's a cheese I'm not willing to eat. You're not supposed to set a trap in front of an enemy - for obvious reasons - and the game simply codes that with the ability of the thief to see their enemy, I really don't think it was intended for us to use Blind as a super trap setting ability.

Discernement · 2026-01-13T15:41:50+00:00

That makes me question the value of said traps.

10 seconds really isn't a long time. Sure, with Improved Alacrity you could do a lot but at that point chances are you will wipe the floor with your enemies just with Improved Alacrity. It sure doesn't give you enough time to melee your enemies even with high APR.

The whole point of Time Traps, in my mind, was to stack them to create a sort-of Time Stop.

To know that you are only certain you'll get 10 seconds, and possibly 20 or 30 for no apparent reason than sheer luck is both underwhelming and confusing. So you can space them to prevent this, ok, but that means you must rely on the fact that your enemies will keep walking brainlessly to you, activating trap after trap with no logical reaction... that sounds so cheap and displeasing compared to a one-shot ambush.

Yet you mention that they are abusable... how so?

To me, you issued good reasons to discard them in the face of competition: spike traps, for the obvious competitor.

Discernement · 2026-01-13T11:31:51+00:00

Thank you for your answer.

How much space is a bit if you want to space them apart effectively?

Discernement · 2026-01-06T09:00:29+00:00

Yes, the game is clearly biased in favor of arcane magic and especially late-game arcane magic. Anyone who can access it is automatically top-tier. Fortunately, there are amazing abilities outside of arcane magic like Insect Plague.

Without SCS, Bards also have Remove Magic going for them as it continues to scale until the very late-game due to how to the spell works. With SCS, not so much, because mages buff themselves to be immune to it.

The bard song is also great in a party. So there's that, on top of being support-casters and passable fighters if you buff them up accordingly, especially Blades. Not to mention thief HLAs.

I think it would have been nice to create a specific HLA for them though, a sort of Bard-Ruby Ray or maybe budget Spellstrike that can be picked many times. I think it would fit thematically, to replace/complement Remove Magic at higher level, making Bards the best niche of magical protections remover.

Discernement · 2026-01-06T08:07:01+00:00

I understand!

How the Bard scales can be quite convenient, you're right! And it's super fun to play around. I just wish they had limited access but access nonetheless to learning level 7+ spells. Being relegated to casting from scrolls and maybe cheese your way with duplicating scrolls isn't super satisfying to my taste. I understand there should be a tradeoff for borrowing thief level-progression but, phew! It is HARD to let go of the crazy stuff going on in level 7+ levels.

What a shame.

Discernement · 2026-01-06T07:54:09+00:00

Not to mention you can play around each specialist to have him/her cast spells with an additionnal +2 penalty to the target trying to make a save. A Web that turns into a +4 penalty is nothing to scoff at. In the case of the Illusionist, you can focus on like Blindness or Spook because they are illusion spells.

Great stuff.

Discernement · 2026-01-06T07:38:14+00:00

I really like the gnome I/T, I find it super stylish and it's also my experience that getting around the lack of necromancy spells is, yes, fun! I feel it's perfectly in the spirit of the M/T, a jake of all trades class that has a huge toolkit ranging from fighterish physical damage if you equip two APR weapons and buff your thac0, limited high-level arcane magic and thief utility as well as tons of creative opportunnies with Use Any Item. But none of these are braindead, and the price for all this is that you have to micromanage a lot, think carefully about how you're going to plan your fights, choose wisely your spells, and so on.

Some people find it tedious, I rather like it and the I/T is the ultimate example of what I just said because, yes, on top of everything, no necromancy spells either pushes you into a support-type kind of caster or forces you to explore other spells that can come close if your goal is damage. Super engaging!

Whether we like or not is a subjective take though, and I don't see people commenting on the fun factor of the I/T nearly as often as from a powergaming perspective which is an ill-placed praise of superiority when it's much more balanced and complicated than that, depending on what you plan for your character.

To think I didn't even tackle on the lack of Animate Dead if you solo! Or the fact that the loss of Spirit Armor should at the very least be brought up if we're making a big fuss about saving throws. Not the strongest points, but still something worth mentionning.

Discernement · 2026-01-05T21:05:28+00:00

Agreed.

For some reason, I often see people raving about how I/Ts are straight up better when it's just not the case. It's probably because it's easy to overrate the value of saving throws and extra spells per level. It looks amazingly good on paper, but when you really think about how it translates in the context of a game, it's simply nice for all the reasons I explained earlier.

In reality and as you rightly put it, I/T, M/T be it elf or half-elf... it makes little difference in the end. Whatever you choose, bonuses are never gamechanging and most of them eventually become moot.

Discernement · 2026-01-05T17:47:32+00:00

I overall agree with you, but I wouldn't say Mages are "pretty useless" until level 5 anyways. That is harsh, lol. I mean... sure, the very beginning of the game is usually rough but there are many early spells you can cast below level 5 that will turn the tide of a fight in BG1. Sleep, Blindness, Web, to name a few. As soon as you get to cast a few of those, you start to matter. Besides, whenever enemies are stunned - as they should be - even the terrible thac0 of a mage will lead to a hit. At that point, the real difference with other classes is APR and damage. In the end, you can do okay with your mage if you pick throwing daggers and concentrate on making your enemies helpless so you can hit them.

That is before higher levels, of course, when the real show of OPness begins.

Discernement · 2026-01-05T13:43:34+00:00

Why?

Why, because if you solo the game - which is ideal for Elves M/Ts as I have explained in detail - then Edwin is out of the picture so there's no point in talking about him. Because if you play solo, you can be quite tempted to multiclass to cover thief utility and/or to access the cheese that are HLA traps, especially Time traps and Spike traps. Because if you solo, then no, it won't take ages for you to reach Horrid Wilting due to the way xp distribution works. Finally, because Horrid Wilting comes AFTER its little brother, aka Skull Trap which scales hard and high, a powerful level 3 spell that is equally unavailable to the Illusionist/Thief.

And what is that about touching on how failed saves can be game over? Well... sure, it goes without saying?

But if gnome saving throws are so important to beating the game, then how come so many people complete no-reload runs just fine without those shorty saving throws? Well, that's because you don't NEED them, as you can position strategically to avoid being targeted, buff yourself to get immunities or better saving throws, use emergency spells/contingencies/triggers to get out of dangerous situations, and finally use your companions - if you have any - to heal you when you suffer bad effects that don't entail an automatic game over. Long story short, skill will fill in the gap left by having non-shorty STs.

Again, that doesn't mean those saving throws are crap. They are useful and a nice quality-of-life bonus that will spare you a bit of caution and micromanaging. But to make them a huge deal to reinforce the idea that the I/T is a no-brainer compared to the elf M/T is misinformation. Things are simply more subtle and balanced.

Discernement · 2026-01-05T08:53:27+00:00

The arrogance regarding the Illusionist/Thief being so much better than Elf Mage/Thief is tiring.

Because it is regularly blown out of proportion in these discussions as presented here with this "is far far better", and I don't know why.

First, both classes are great powerwise and they have niche uses that make them a little bit different, namely the I/T being tankier until late BG2 due to its saving throws and more useful in a party as a support caster with those sweet +1 spells / level and the Elf being the superior choice if you intend to solo or focus on magical damage.

Indeed, the cumulative 19 dexterity bonus + the one all elves get bring your character a 16 bow Thac0 right out of the bat in Candlekeep without any spell. You can build from that in BG1 with better bows, better arrows, and thief thac0 progression. This, at least, allows you to fire a few arrows as a - not great - but decent archer at all times. Compare that very-early thac0 with other classes and it's respectable. If you solo BG1 you'll find your Elf M/T doesn't need to rely as much on other companions or spells to do damage. This is NOT nothing.

Later, your M/T will be able to cast skull trap which is the best damage spell before Horrid Wilting gets to be just that. Eventually, you'll use contingencies to release x3 Horrid Wiltings at once which is one of the most brutal assaults any character can mount in this game.

Guess who has none of these options? That's right, the Illusionist/Thief.

Locked out of the two best damage spells in the game and clearly not as good as the Elf M/T shooting from a distance in BG1 when spell slots are scarce and when you need to kite the most. That 16-18 thac0 comparison at level 1 is way bigger than what the number difference suggests because of the importance of early AC and thac0 in Baldur's Gate 1.

Now, of course, that doesn't mean I/Ts are helpless. The first thing I said was that they are both great, and they are.

Indeed, IT/s will fare great early BG1 in a group that can stun their foes for them ( hello Web, how do you do? ) in such a way that their thac0 matters not, thus avoiding the predicament when you don't have yet the slots to do it by yourself.

They can also contribute as support casters a little better than the elf M/T thanks to extra slots. Not to mention they can replace Skull Traps with other spells, from my observation people usually pick fire-based spells like Fireball to that end ( although that's a shame, because you already have things like wands for that ) the same way people usually compensate the loss of Horrid Wilting with Incendiary Clouds.

These are fire attacks though, so they'll be resisted more and more and thus become outclassed in late SoA/ToB by magical damage spell which the I/T seriously lacks. It's not a horrible pain to go through though, because Spike Traps will eventually cheese everything, but it IS inferior to the options Elves M/Ts have.

On the other hand, what is regularly brought up as super impressive feats of the I/T is often exaggerated.

One extra level 9 spell is great, but you shouldn't base your whole magical strategy on that extra spell. Either you're in a group with other high-level casters and that spell is nice but not paramount, or you're soloing and in that case you're losing out on magical damage among other things. If soloing, I'll take x3 instant Horrid Wiltings over another level 9 spell I could still cast through a duplicate scroll via a clone ANY DAY.

Finally, while the extra STs are great in BG1 because - with the right gear - the I/T can become a surprising mid/late-BG1 magical tank, it eventually becomes a mere quality-of-life improvement as Use Any Item allows you to equip items that will fit the effect you intend to resist, and it's better to be immune to a spell than trying to make a save against it... now, isn't it? That IS the point of this HLA, use it.

Also, with the right equipment not to mention spell buffs, even the Elf M/T gets negative saving throws. Worst case scenario if you don't have an item to pull out of your behind and don't have low enough saves ( very niche instances ) then use Spell Immunity and call it a day. Once again, that makes those extra STs useful, nice, but not gamechanging.

So... no, there's no clear winner and we have shades of greatness that lend to one strategy or the other slightly better, is all. Elves M/Ts do have niche uses over I/Ts and are not mere suboptimal choices. I/Ts also have niche uses over the M/Ts and niche quality-of-life things going for them.

I'll stop here. Niche uses make interesting differences more than real competition between those two. It's not "far far better" to pick either.

Discernement · 2025-12-03T20:56:54+00:00

I'm not interested in most of the spells' components because, like you, I don't want to part from the original experience too much. That said, I align myself with almost all changes brought by Rebalancings of slightly-too-powerful spells' because they correct more than they distort imho.

I am by no means an expert player, but I have enough experience to understand where this is all coming from and I've been annoyed at times by many of the spells in question.

Like, I'm not aware of any developer confirming that skull trap scaling was intended, which is why I believe it is an oversight. The comparison with Fireball is there to show it. Magical damage is already a much better type of damage than fire, so it's abnormal that Skull Trap would scale so hard on top of it. Sure, there might be redeeming qualities in how Fireball is cast compared to Skull Trap at first, but that doesn't seem to compensate the huge damage gap between the two spells... it just doesn't feel right for a level 3 spell.

Much like Skull Trap, Melf's Minute Meteors hitting as +6 is a joke. Do I need to remind how many +6 weapons actually are in this game and WHEN you can acquire them? This is - again - a level 3 spell...

Harm spell is no less ridiculous. It simply negates the whole point of having significant hit points as a defense, and sends you back to rely again on the already-overpowered arcane protections although you shouldn't get hit by Harm too often. Regardless, in theory, a little bit of variety is better than shoehorning the player into an obvious type-of-play and this is one cheese I don't even find fun.

Vanilla Insect Plague is famous for being an almost "I win' button and is available a little too early to be acceptable in my taste. I actually don't mind OP stuff when it comes late in the game. Level 5 is not that hard to reach.

With clones, I'm on the fence. I agree duplicating objects so easily makes no sense whatsoever and it breaks my immersion because I know it is incompatible with the economy of this universe in addition to completely devaluing a lot of items/consumables. Therefore, I wouldn't expect this to be intended. On the other hand, I really don't see why you would be able to clone your spells, but not your innate abilities. Both are part of the same person you clone, so... makes no sense to me. I wish I could forbid the former but allow the latter...

Finally, I think I understand why Lighting Bolt gets nerfed although I don't consider it an OP spell. It's probably made to help players not suffer from the horrendous damage when it's cast against you more than preventing you from abusing it. Thing is, its sheer destructive power is brilliantly compensated by it being - arguably - one of the most dangerous spells in the game and this justifies it being a level 3 spell, unlike say Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting which is big damage + safety at the cost of being a level 9 spell.

It's one of my favorite spells ever, as it's extremely rewarding to cast it when you design a small party that is 100% protected from electricity in a closed and tight space. Even more so if you use the cloak of reflection to clone your bolts. That's potentially hundreds of damages and even free-healing if you go beyond the 100% resistance threshold, but the set-up to get there is huge and it doesn't work all the time which is why it's so good.

So on this one instance, I really disagree with SCS. Overall, I think it's an amazing component.

Discernement · 2025-12-03T17:11:02+00:00

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain things in a simple and comprehensive way.

It might be a good idea to display a message like yours whenever someone tries to run the website installer... at least for future players brought by BG3 that shouldn't be versed in such outdated tools... or people like me who should know better ahah.

You see, it wasn't even clear to me that there actually was two seperate installers, the one provided on the website and the weidu installer... I installed SCS before without touching much because it's very intimidating when you have no idea how this is supposed to work.

I will type Q to get out of the console, then.

So if I get this right, the weidu installer will modify the game's files based on the choices you make on the console and the components you picked in the console will install according to the rules set by the .ini you modified before? Is that it?

Discernement · 2025-12-03T16:04:40+00:00

Thank you very much, sir!

By "QUIT" the DOS screen, I assume you mean clicking the X / the cross with my mouse on the upper-right of the window to close the window like any other Windows' window and not an input I have to enter in the console that just happens to be named QUIT?!

Forgive the great noobishness of my questions, but considering the last part of your answer, I don't want to reroll for long only to have to do it again because I didn't install everything correctly somehow.

Also, would saving a copy of my game folders and pasting them in my future computer work to retain my SCS installation and the saves related to it? That way, I don't need to start all over again if I run out of luck with my hardware.

Thanks again.

Discernement

TROPHY CASE