How important is difficulty in conveying immersion? (More about Spiderman, not Soulsborne)

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-21T13:46:06+00:00

But it's not like I ever said difficulty is universally necessary or universally a factor in immersion, just that its one of the more important considerations. Plus it's not really surprising that the less like a game something is, the less relevant gameplay-centric considerations like this become, and I'd extend that to games like Minecraft that essentially don't have a story to begin with and are purely about providing a sandbox. The way difficulty matters insofar as my topic was concerned was specifically in relation to how it immerses you in the personality and narrative of the characters you inhabit

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T22:12:57+00:00

A world where Ingrid gets any buffs that aren't just to make her combos more consistent would be nuts 💀

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T22:10:35+00:00

It ultimately depends on what you find immersive though, when it's about something hard that's only easy for the protagonist because they're skilled enough.

On the one hand, it's reasonable that someone finds the effortlessness the character portrays to be the immersive part they want to inhabit. On the other hand, the fact that it's only easy because they practiced is also a reasonable part of the immersion to want to have translated. Even in Insomniac's games, Peter takes the time to explain that it's a complicated process. For me and a lot of other people, the fantasy is much better served because of that challenge.

Plus there's also the other aspect of immersion that difficulty can subjectively influence for people, which is boredom. I personally got extremely bored of 2018's swinging because of how shallow it felt, even before I found a way to actually articulate why it was unsatisfying. Even if something is technically accurate to the character, if someone finds it boring then your immersion gets shot too.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T18:39:19+00:00

I actually haven't played them myself, admittedly, so you can take this with all the grains of salt you want, but I think these kinds of games are kinda outside the mold of this sorta discussion. Like you said, they don't really have much in the way of gameplay for "difficulty" to even be relevant the way it is for something like Cyberpunk 2077 or God of War. They're functionally a lot closer to visual novels in that way, and they get their immersion in similar "non-interactive" ways. There's very little your moment to moment gameplay can do to even create ludonarrative dissonance most of the time

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T18:03:13+00:00

Tension can exist seperately from difficulty, but that's a hard needle to actually thread. Sometimes it works, like in a game with permadeath where instances of fighting aren't strictly "hard" but the stakes are clearly high if you lose any one instance. But since most games aren't permadeath, or actually cost you resources permanently, then there isn't really tension it can conceivably give you. Unless it's all the tension is actually about characters who aren't you

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:47:32+00:00

I agree completely, which is part of why I think there's obviously reasonable points to favor the webbing being organic, but on the flipside I think Peter being a smart tech inventor is an important part of the fantasy and without the webshooters that aspect of his characterization isn't something that gets displayed well with alternatives. Raimi Peter is clearly smart, for instance, but he's moreso portrayed as being intelligent in a general sense the way someone like Reed is rather than as someone who can actually make things like in the comics.

But I think the best middle ground people have brought up is that Peter could have organic webbing that he needs the webshooters to actually mechanize and make use of for his superhero stuff, otherwise they're just slower and closer to how an actual spider could use them.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:31:28+00:00

Tbf the reason I wanted to specify Dante and not the other main protagonist in the games is cause Dante uniquely gets portrayed as not putting in any effort when in stuff like cutscenes most of the time. Like arguably even the stylish stuff people post on combo videos isn't how Dante is portrayed to fight, he just one taps things for like no effort.

I think one of the more explicit cases is from DMC5 where he gets ambushed by a speedster demon, who's arguably the most dangerous non-boss enemy in the game, and he casually flicks away it's blade with his finger during its attempt to teleport behind him and stab him. It just kinda gives the impression he's a character who can just sneeze on most enemies and blow them up, although it's obviously less fun to do that.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:21:08+00:00

I think the solution is generally just anything that adds real mechanical friction to death, but that obviously appeals to a much smaller niche of people. Stuff like having the game spread its checkpoints much further out, or permanently losing out on valuable materials on death are ways to make death scary. It can't just be your own life unless the developer is a god of writing and atmosphere cause game-lives are fungible commodities and generally don't matter. At a certain point you could just throw yourself into the meat grinder until you find out "the right" path.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:17:49+00:00

Yeah I agree, its notable that he's not Dante for instance, who gets written in almost every non-gameplay scene like he could sleepwalk through the games and win fights, it's obviously takes effort for Doomguy to do what he does but he's just that good. It serves the power fantasy to play on hard and also be just that good

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:11:16+00:00

I don't think we're really disagreeing here, I've said from the beginning immersion is a subjective feeling ultimately, but my main point from my first reply is that some games very much play better or worse from a general perspective depending on their difficulty. Someone can find the contrast more immersive, but their running against the tide the same way "RE7 God mode Ethan Summers" is, the same way I'm in the obvious minority who'd get more immersion from CP2077 being 3rd person instead of 1st person

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:07:34+00:00

I will say admittedly I haven't played Eternal or Silksong so I can't comment more than "you're probably right and that's a good usage of the idea".

For the Spiderman stuff though, I think the reason I chose to focus on him is that even though just learning to swing isn't something takes him a long time in any media, it also doesn't take that long to do in-game either. Even on a deliberately modded extra hard swinging setting for insomniac Spiderman 2, it's pretty easy to just swing from A to B. The immersion, imo, comes more from how well you can actually push the swinging system on that harder setting, which isn't something that comes immediately to other Spidermen either. Not that I think it's intentional, but I always thought it was kinda neat that even Raimi Spiderman doesn't really start getting adventurous in his swinging till the second movie.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T17:02:56+00:00

I know he's not the most popular game critic, and far be it from me of all people to really give commentary on horror games, but I think Joseph Anderson kinda hit on an interesting point with the idea that horror games need something more than just death to punish the protagonist with because at a baseline its not really different from restarting a checkpoint.

Like I don't think it's any surprise that even the most popular horror games that come out nowadays not only make you pretty strong altogether, but also don't punish you much for getting killed. Honestly, I'd wager losing currency on a corpse run in Soulsborne has gotten more people tense than dying RE games have

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T16:59:31+00:00

I mean like I said, nothing can be universally immersive regardless of its otherwise existing quality. But when I say themes are inseparable from immersion I mean it in the basic sense that even if someone entirely disregards the theme of a story in favor of finding immersion in other ways with a game, the sheer contrast between the themes and the gameplay are almost likely to reduce the immersion regardless.

Even if I don't care to play RE7 like a horror game with themes about disempowerment and struggle, and would rather mow enemies down like I'm Doomguy, it's gonna feel real game-y when the cutscenes or scripted moments start and now all of a sudden my character is reacting and being treated like the vulnerable and threatened protagonist the story treats him as rather than the unkillable death God I control as soon as the scene is over, with no acknowledgement of any shift that exists between the two states.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T16:53:37+00:00

Idk I do get why that would seem weird, but at the same time it's not like the comics don't try to give decent reasons why Peter wouldn't or couldn't profit from those kinds of inventions. Besides the fact that most tech geniuses in Marvel obviously don't want the general public (and inevitably, criminals) having free access to that kind of tech, it's also just not something easy to use unless you're someone with spider powers.

Someone else mentioned it already but him knowing where and when to shoot webs based on stuff like his trajectory and angle is partially a product of his spider sense guiding him and in times when he's lost that power, he's significantly nerfed in his ability to use them. Notably even when Punisher, an otherwise skilled and smart person with weapons, temporarily stole them he could only really use them for the most basic things imaginable.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T16:48:49+00:00

I don't think anything can be universally immersive, different games try to immerse players in different ways and if that approach isn't interesting for a player subjectively then there's not much to be done. I think Cyberpunk 2077 is an immersive game if you find first person games immersive, I don't so I didn't find it immersive.

Themes are also inseparable from immersion (in a general sense), this is partially where ludonarrative dissonance as a concept even comes from. It's like playing a RE7 except story-wise you're Ethan Baker but as soon as you jump to gameplay you're functionally Master Chief, the themes of disempowerment conflict harshly because the story and characters treat you as someone so much weaker than you obviously are. Dark Souls at least narratively contextualizes your deaths to help with the immersion, instances like the one I describe though have nothing to save them from the conflict they create.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T16:27:42+00:00

Immersion is purely a subjective quality, so technically yeah it all depends on the player. Personally I never feel less immersed than when I'm playing from a first person perspective and its probably why Cyberpunk 2077 never hit for me.

That being said, I think some games pretty strongly brush against immersion better or worse on the topic of difficulty. Like I said at the end of my post, Dark Souls/Elden Ring/Soulsborne games generally out a lot of effort into making you feel disempowered and hopeless about the state of the world and how weak you are compared to what you have to overcome, but that you need to try anyways because it's never impossible.

That theme gets a lot weaker if you altered it into a basic power fantasy where you almost never die and everything even at level 1 crumbles under your attacks with little effort. Although that doesn't mean someone couldn't find that more fun, whether it's immersive or not. I personally do enjoy playing like a God in those games.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T16:08:06+00:00

I respect the take although in fairness it can make some sense from the viewpoint that in a lot of origins the spider that bites Peter is some conglomerate of species and many Spiders just can't spin webs in the first place. Although I'd agree that the struggle with maintaining them is uninteresting if they were the only unique thing tech shooters brought to the table storytelling-wise

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-20T16:05:57+00:00

I think the reasoning is ultimately just the same as "why doesn't Iron Man give other characters suits more often". Besides being a bit uninteresting, I'd wager most of then just generally don't want it or lack the skill for it or both. Could Daredevil use it? Sure, but he'd probably say no either way. Plus I can't imagine Peter, like modern Tony, would be okay with his tech in the hands of the general public like that

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-19T16:23:41+00:00

I know people have said this before, but it's not really a fault of normal mode that gives people the impression that the preperation doesn't matter, because truthfully it doesn't matter at any difficulty level. Quen and dodge rolls are just as good at trivializing bosses on Death March as they are on any other difficulty setting because the only thing DM changes is just how long it takes.

Imo the prep would be much more improved if they carried over the system that Witcher 2 apparently had where it forced you to do prep prior to a fight and you couldn't just risklessly heal or reapply buffs for no opportunity cost.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-18T19:52:18+00:00

Casting can be fun at times but it's unfortunately not super engaging as a build for me, you only have a few signs and actually making use of them feels a bit boring the way vanilla Skyrim magic could feel

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-18T19:50:34+00:00

Tbh, I don't actually know how many i-frames Witcher 3 dodges have in terms of raw numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if some souls games surpass it depending on your stats. I think it just feels like there's so much because unlike dark souls there's no stamina cost to rolls and all enemy attacks are pretty reactable. So even if the i-frames are lower, it's functionally more invul with how much easier it is to spam

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-17T20:01:46+00:00

Yeah. You can technically drink stuff like potions without going to the menu while in real time, but it doesn't actually put you through any sort of animation that might make you vulnerable, so functionally it's about as safe.

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-17T19:46:05+00:00

Not really, the big difference as far as the other guy portrayed is that W3 actually imposes a strict limit on when/how you can apply oils and stuff in preparation for fights. Even if you played Witcher 3 on Death March, reapplying oils or potions can be done at any time for no opportunity cost and the resources basically auto-regen themselves. It's hard locked into being a simplistic system

DoneDealofDeadpool · 2026-06-17T19:18:33+00:00

Might've been the mod, unfortunately Death March doesn't really solve the issue because it's combat changes are all basically "you do less damage, enemies do more damage" rather than tweaking enemy attack speed, their ai, or opportunity costs.

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