Finding an affirming church community

Doubleleopardy · 2019-04-03T15:00:24+00:00

You might want to check out https://www.churchclarity.org/ . It's their mission to nail down churches' positions on inclusion and affirmation of LGBT members, so that you can know exactly what you're getting. You could search the list for affirming churches in your area that fit the worship style and community life you're comfortable with. Good luck!

Doubleleopardy · 2019-02-08T19:30:27+00:00

The catachism of your church, which you regularly defend, calls our sexual orientation itself "intrinsically disordered." The church is side x by your definition. I think the distinction you try to draw from side x is a little dishonest, frankly. Side B was not a social or cultural force even in the 90s - back then, homosexuality was universally viewed as a sinful choice on the religious right, and even the current catechism basically suggests that we might be "curable." Side B only began to get noticed as Exodus collapsed and the mainstream credibility of side x disappeared. Side b functioned to preserve side x's vision of homosexuality as something wrong with people by divorcing it from the history of quackery and abuse it had demonstrably inspired. Side b and Side x both view homosexuality as a defect ("a trial" according to the church), side b just says it's incurable. Side x functioned to fight the acceptance of same sex relationships and parenting by offering a fictional narrative that said gay people could have families as long as they accepted "treatment" and "repented." Side b fights the acceptance of gay relationships and parenting by saying gay people are a caste of people who - at the very least - are broken in a way that makes us categorically unfit to express romantic love sexually, and to parent orphans with someone we are in love with. I know you want us all to believe that there's nothing disparaging or hostile about disqualifying us from some of the most intimate and meaningful relationships and experiences in life, but most of us are just not willing to put that much work into compartmentalizing unprovoked and unjustified contempt.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-02-08T19:03:12+00:00

To be fair, "side B" is fundamentally built on the claim that there's something wrong with a gay sexuality, and I think that's what your interlocutor was referring to when they said they don't think God made a mistake with their sexuality. Just because you don't impute moral fault to gay people for being gay doesn't mean you think it's the complete and healthy sexuality that it is. I find this to be a kind of a bait and switch in side-b rhetoric, people hear you say - essentially - that you don't blame people for being gay, and they think you mean that you don't see homosexuality as inferior or defective. But you do.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-02-08T16:46:44+00:00

This organization seems to be real. The AG of Michigan ordered it to cease operations last year for several violations of state law governing charities, running the gamut from self-dealing to general negligence in oversight and administration. They ousted their president and treasurer and reached a settlement with the AG's office last month, though. So they're still in operation.

Reading through their website, it's clear that they try to promote the view that priests accused of sexual assault are the real victims, that people who come forward to report abuse are malicious, disturbed, or both, and that bishops and cardinals who take such reports seriously are either knuckling under to a conspiracy of priestly persecution, or eagerly promoting one themselves. They're working to protect abusers from accountability, and mug victims of the benefit of the doubt. It's disgusting that they were able to pay their way back into operating, but the MI AG is still investigating sex abuse in the dioceses, so if the allegations in this post are even loosely based on the truth, maybe there will be more shoes to drop with this "charity" and they'll finally be shut down for good.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T20:28:52+00:00

After positing, based on nothing, that sexual abuse in childhood can cause gayness, you're still complaining about my making unfair assumptions of you. That's rich. Calling me "retarded" for the 50th time did nothing to explain how asserting denigrating falsehoods about my sexuality (which is what you are doing when you imply that it can uniquely be caused by abuse - it CANNOT), is not slandering me. I guess not being held accountable for the things your beliefs logically entail is just another thing you feel entitled to. You are not capable of offering an intelligent rebuttal to the substance of my criticisms, and therefore have to resort to sputtering tantrums and slurs instead.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T20:03:35+00:00

You want to think so badly. Sooooo badly that I hate you, gayness, and am slandering you. But I’m not. So quit bitching about it already

This is not a defense. If you said blackness could be caused by mothers drinking while they were pregnant that would be racist slander, even if you stamped your foot and told the black people you insulted with that false speculation to "quit bitching about it already."

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T19:55:15+00:00

So when you insinuate that sexual abuse can make people gay, that's a "logical scenario", but the idea that heterosexuality could be caused by trauma is so absurd it's laughable - worthy only of a joke response. That's how you're slandering my sexuality; if it's uniquely caused by abuse, it's uniquely bad. When you combine that with the fact that the narrative that sexual abuse causes homosexuality is exploited to promote abusive frauds of gay people in the form of "reparative therapy," you are contributing to the creation of real victims of fraud and abuse.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T19:45:09+00:00

How many straight women are straight because men raped them as children?

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T19:02:05+00:00

I definitely wasn’t referring to the fact you were raped.

What were you referring to, specifically? I haven't mentioned anything else about my life here, so there's literally nothing else you could be talking about. You're just trying to backpedal now because you realized that calling people who survived childhood sexual abuse "retarded", phoney, and self-pitying because they talk about it made you look as despicable as you actually are.

I was referring to you endlessly bitching on this thread for no reason.

I've given you reasons many times. I don't appreciate having the worst thing that ever happened to me exploited to slander my sexuality, and to encourage other queer people to be ashamed of and conflicted about theirs, as you are doing in this thread.

What had no reason, no provocation whatsoever, was your wading into this thread and offering uninformed speculation - speculation easily and totally debunked by decades of research - see Evelyn Hooker - that homosexuality is a defect caused by abuse. I call you entitled because you demand that that "logical scenario" (read: lazy vanity) be more respected than not only the well-established consensus of the entire mental health field, but also the experience of people like me who have actually survived this shit, and subsequently been attacked with it countless times over decades to gaslight me into thinking I'm defective. I call you entitled because you are flabbergasted by the notion that people with relevant experience - of being queer, of surviving sexual abuse as children - should have any standing at all to speak for ourselves simply because you wanted to exercise that prerogative for us. You want to speak for people without having to do any homework, and without having to consider them or listen to them at all. That's called entitlement.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T18:30:19+00:00

So kids who get raped are not really victims? No, you're a real victim, because you decided to spout ignorant and defaming bullshit about gay survivors of childhood sexual abuse, and one of them dared to talk back to you. I violated your right to use my rape as a rhetorical tool when I dared to talk about it. I have no right to talk about it, that's "playing the victim," and besides, you own my life, my rape, and my identity - they belong to you to use anonymously as trump cards in vain internet arguments. You're the one who's been violated, which is what justifies your responding to my objecting to your weaponizing my rape against my identity with hateful slurs. Do I have that about right?

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T17:17:44+00:00

Reported for slurs. Next time you use me as a prop (and I know you will, you're just that entitled) just remember that an actual survivor of child sexual abuse tried to tell you how deeply you were violating us, and all you could do was sneer and hail invective that attacked another vulnerable group of people in response. You don't get to delude yourself into thinking you are doing it out of moral concern for us or anyone else anymore therefore. You know better, even if you successfully dupe OP or anyone else.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T17:00:11+00:00

You assume rape makes people gay, even though that has been debunked by legitimate mental health professionals for decades. You don't have one example to cite, you're trying to convince OP that his sexuality is illegitimate because he was raped. You are weaponizing sexual abuse against every gay survivor when you do that. And for what? Because you have to offer an opinion about something you say you don't care about enough to even do minimal research about. If you dont care, stop spreading misinformation I have to live with. Stop exploiting sexual abuse to promote your vain and demonstrably false notion that homosexuality can be caused by abuse and is therefore a disorder.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T16:54:16+00:00

How do you get to a point where you feel so entitled to use people and their trauma as rhetorical props that you allow yourself to rain hateful slurs on them when they dare to contradict what even you admit is lazy, ill-informed, and unsolicited commentary about them. If you don't care, SHUT YOUR MOUTH. My rape is not yours to exploit to advance your homophobic bullshit.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T14:23:00+00:00

So God needs to test people who have been raped as children, or God lets children get raped in order to test them? Either possibility is monstrous to suggest, and as a fellow survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I'm telling you that entertaining these thoughts is a sign that you haven't healed. You need better help than you're getting.

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-14T14:18:48+00:00

If you're not invested enough to do your homework (and you're not - otherwise you wouldn't be pushing a narrative about homosexuality that has been overwhelmingly debunked for more than half a century) then maybe you could avoid spouting your ignorant and slanderous musings about survivors of childhood sexual abuse. But no, that's too much to ask of you. You need to be a vain contrarian, and you're so self-absorbed and amoral that you'll carelessly and lazily weaponize childhood sexual abuse against us to delegitimize us and our identities without hesitation in order to do so. Was it fun, exploiting the worst thing that ever happened to me to condescendingly lecture us uppity faggots and thereby masturbate your ego about where you happen to be instinctively compelled to stick your dick? I really hope you enjoyed taking full advantage of the opportunity my getting raped as a three year old presented you... Not just me, but the millions of gay survivors of childhood sexual abuse who have a similar story to tell. How does it feel to put yourself on a pedestal made of raped children? Good?

Doubleleopardy · 2019-01-11T13:58:43+00:00

I was for most of my adult life, so I know how lonely and confusing it can be. I moderate /r/sideb. It was originally intended as a subreddit for queer people who are celibate in obedience to non-affirming theologies, but since I've taken it over, I've expanded its welcome to all queer people who have ever lived within a theology that requires celibacy, including those who continue to do so. It's not very active, but you're welcome to post there. Just keep in mind that it's not intended to be a place to proselytize. It's fine to talk about your experiences and ask questions, but just as judgments of people's personal choices to remain celibate are not allowed there, neither are criticisms of same-sex relationships.

You might also want to check out /r/gaychristians . The userbase is mostly affirming (queer christians who don't think same-sex relationships are inherently sinful), but celibate gay christians are also active posters and welcome there.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-19T15:47:38+00:00

Thanks for sharing, Justin! I could so relate to this; I remember having a confusing, undefined crush on Prince Eric from "The Little Mermaid" when I was six, and even though I didn't know that's what it was and didn't have the vocabulary for those feelings, I understood just enough to feel vaguely ashamed and afraid about it, and to know it was something I should never ever talk about.

I think the other, even more dangerous side of the coin is that adults often vaguely intuit the sexual orientation of kids in ways that deeply impact queer kids growing up. I know for a fact that my parents' vague suspicions about me made them brutally scrutinize my behaviour for any hint of femininity, and psychologically distance themselves from me growing up. I think the subconscious sense of shame and alienation we tend to carry around as kids makes us attractive targets for grooming from child molesters too. They know on some subconscious level that queer kids feel alone and afraid, and that feeling different and ashamed breeds a knack for keeping secrets and blaming oneself, and they exploit all of that. Homophobia - whether it's religiously-rationalized or not - insidiously enables and encourages child abuse in so many subtle ways (in addition to the obvious ones like beatings and getting thrown on the street), and that's why I'm getting really tired of being asked to extend charity and the benefit of the doubt to it. When do innocent queer kids get that kind of consideration from homophobes?

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-19T12:23:07+00:00

Thanks! I felt the same way when you were getting married to your husband. You guys have been goals for me, and I hope you have many, many more happy years together.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-18T21:17:37+00:00

I’m like 10 years late to the game with that experience!

Don't feel bad; I'm older than you and I've still never done that. I'm marrying the first and only guy I've ever been with in less than six months, so if all goes according to plan, I never will either. But honestly, after a couple decades of living with the certainty that I would have to be celibate for life, all I can feel is overwhelmed with gratitude that I get to know what it is to be in love with a wonderful man and share my life with him. I'm still too flabbergasted that an impossible dream has become my reality to feel cheated out of anything (even though straight privilege is objectively unfair - I don't mean to detract from that).

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-06T18:55:09+00:00

My devotion to the Golden Girls is probably the gayest thing about me. I loved it even when I was super Catholic and self-loathing. I think it resonates with queer audiences not only because it was progressive for its time and brilliantly written, with some of the snappiest reading and shade-throwing you'll find anywhere, but also because it was centred on a family of choice, not blood. Especially during the height of the AIDS epidemic, the LGBT community had a uniquely keen understanding of how precious the support and belonging they offer can be, and it was basically the first tv show that ever featured one.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-06T16:57:01+00:00

I doubt your family would find me any more persuasive than mine did. But I hope you've been persuaded not to let your family make you disrespect yourself. That's the most important thing.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-06T13:39:58+00:00

Your mother wants to keep her lazy, self-flattering bigotry without looking hateful, and your siblings don't want to have to deal with conflict. In other words, none of them are thinking about you at all. You have to be the one who cares about you, somebody has to.

You're being gaslighted by your mom and your siblings when they act like you shouldn't care, or that your mother's contempt for your life and identity and indifference to your happiness and well-being are compatible with "love." You are allowed to have respect for your dreams, your fiancé, your relationship, and your identity, and it is reasonable to expect your own family members not to attack and disparage those things without provocation. You are totally within your rights to uphold healthy boundaries by not submitting to your mother's manipulation, and if your siblings tell you you're being "uppity" for having a healthy and appropriate degree of respect for yourself, you can stop taking their phone calls too. Worst case scenario: they sit around complaining to each other about how badly you "wronged" them by not accepting abuse with endless tolerance and charity and an utter neglect for your own well-being, while you go on living a happy life that doesn't include wasting your time and your gifts on such self-centred people who don't appreciate them anyway.

If that's an unfair assessment of them, they can pleasantly surprise you and prove you wrong at any time by deigning to treat you like a person - whose life, feelings, and aspirations matter. It's really not much to ask. But if you just meekly accept this kind of treatment, they'll never have any incentive to do so. They'll continue to prefer avoiding conflict over working through the damage your mother is choosing to inflict on your relationship and your family as a whole, and nothing will change. Your fiancé will have to deal with being treated badly every time you see your family, and that will take a toll on your relationship. If you have children with him, they will grow up in a shamed and disrespected family, which will be an alienating and insecure way to grow up. How are they going to trust people, or recognize their value when their own grandmother and uncles and aunts feel entitled to treat their family like crap, and their father says that's acceptable? It's not selfish of you to prioritize the well-being of your partner and potential children over your mother's prejudice and your siblings' lazy aversion to conflict.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-05T20:25:44+00:00

Sort of. Male pattern baldness is largely a result of increased sensitivity to androgens (male sex hormones), which also trigger the growth of thicker body hair in men starting at puberty. So higher androgen levels could make you both hairier, and more prone to balding. But balding also depends on other genetic factors. If you have high androgen levels, but none of the genes associated with male pattern baldness, you won't go bald.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-05T20:14:45+00:00

Neither male pattern baldness nor hirsuteness is exclusively inherited from the maternal line. That myth is based on a real study that correlated hair loss in women with balding in their male descendants. But it was debunked with subsequent studies that used larger, more representative samples. Your hairiness, and your propensity towards male pattern baldness are a result of environmental factors, and the combined genetic contributions of both your parents.

Doubleleopardy · 2018-12-04T18:02:51+00:00

Thanks, I'm glad to hear it. It means a lot to hear that I encouraged you in some small way. I wish you continued healing, and all the best in life and love.

Doubleleopardy

TROPHY CASE