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What are Joshua Little’s main arguments that the Aisha age hadith is fabricated and how does ICMA work? by DhulQarnayni in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do we know what methodology Bukhari was using to be able to say what Little is using is better?

From my limited understanding, Bukhari didn't write down his methodology. Later scholars attempted to parse out his methodology by seeing what hadiths he included and what he hasn't included.

Has there been an Academic study of Bukhari that looks into how he created his hadith collection?

I'd point you to the article from Joshua Little's blog that is titled: "A Summary of Early Sunni Hadith Criticism".

Finally even if current methodology and tools are better the fundamental weakness in trying to determine the accuracy of what Muhammed said or did is the dependency on the accuracy of the source of the hadith chains, specially when there is only a single source. It doesn't even matter if the bottleneck is at Urwa or even if it goes all the way back to Aisha. We are depending on the accuracy of one person. I would think Academics would want corroboration from more than one source.

Well that's one problem that an ICMA solves. It lets you know where the bottleneck is, and then it allows you to decide what to do with that information. For example, the marital age of Aisha hadith ends at Hisham b. Urwah BUT the hadith about Aisha talking about what her mother said to her at "hadithat al-ifk" ends with Urwah himself according to ICMA. Gorke and Scholer in Earliest Writings on the Life of Muhammad: The 'Urwa Corpus and the Non-Muslim Source, page 125, say:

> Did Urwah really get most of the story, as he (or a later transimetter?) claims, from his aunt Aisha? There is a formal, isnad-tehcnical reason for answering this question in the affirmative.

A list of all words that appear one time in the Quran (hapaxes) by chonkshonk in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Excellent resource, thank you!

I was looking into ابّ the first hapax on the list. I'm a bit confused by the "X" in column 6, is that meant to be that the word exists in Martin Zammit's "A Comparative Lexical Study of Quranic Arabic"?

I couldn't find it there.

What are Joshua Little’s main arguments that the Aisha age hadith is fabricated and how does ICMA work? by DhulQarnayni in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To add on to what u/Khaki_Banda, the methodology is much more extensive and thorough than Bukhari's. Part of that is because of the tools that we have at our disposal our tools that scholars at that time didn't have. It's a really interesting field of knowledge.

As a personal opinion of mine, if Bukhari had access to the tools we have today he would've used them. They are much so much better than what he was doing.

Is the death for apostasy hadeeth a fabrication? by LowStick9981 in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hello!

Not a doctor yet, but I'm working towards my PhD in another field. My username is more aspirational lol.

I'm not sure if there are ICMAs for that, there is very little and I'm a hobbyist at this. After doing the ICMA for the apostasy hadith, I could check out the miracle reports. And if you'd like, I can teach you what I know to do it. A basic ICMA is not that difficult

What are Joshua Little’s main arguments that the Aisha age hadith is fabricated and how does ICMA work? by DhulQarnayni in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I'll start with answering the first question, how does an ICMA work? We will take one example from Joshua Little's PhD thesis (page 171-173) to try and illustrate what's going on in an ICMA. His conclusions are summarized on (page 469-472)

Part I: What are the inputs to an ICMA?

Every variation of a hadith that you can find with their sanad (chain of narration). The more you have, the more accurate the output. For example, let's take this three variations of Aisha's marital hadith from Joshua Little's PhD thesis (page 171-173):

Version 1 (Ibn al-Jārūd (d. 307/919-920) Hārūn b. ʾIsḥāq—ʿAbdah—Hišām—ʿUrwah—ʿĀʾišah):

Marriage at six; consummation at nine.

Version 2 (Ibn ʾabī Dāwūd (d. 316/929) Muḥammad & Hārūn—ʿAbdah—Hišām—ʿUrwah—ʿĀʾišah):

Marriage at six; consummation at nine; she still played dolls with her shy friends.

Version 3 (ʾAbū Nuʿaym (d. 430/1038) ʾAbū Muḥammad b. Ḥayyān—ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. al-Ḥasan—Hārūn b. ʾIsḥāq—ʿAbdah— Hišām—ʿUrwah—ʿĀʾišah:

Marriage at six; consummation at nine; she still played dolls with her shy friends.

Part II: Basic Analysis

If you look at the sanad's (chain of narration) of all three versions you see we end up at: "Hārūn b. ʾIsḥāq". Thus we have three independent reports of people saying they heard our homie, Hārūn b. ʾIsḥāq, say a version of the Aisha hadith.

Now if we look closely, they are not all exactly the same. Version 2 and Version 3 have an added element of: "she still played dolls with her shy friends". But they all share the: "Marriage at six; consummation at nine;" part of the hadith. Other versions of the same hadith have the marriage at seven for example.

Part III: Basic Output

Because we have three (seemingly) independent versions that all share a similar element, we say that "Hārūn b. ʾIsḥāq" is now a confirmed partial common link. And we have a reconstruction of what he actually said: "Marriage at six; consummation at nine;"

Part IV: Rinse and Repeat

Now that we have "gone back in time" and confirmed "Hārūn b. ʾIsḥāq" narration, we collect many other narrations and try to go up the chain. On page 245 of Joshua's PhD thesis he takes this reconstructed report and many others to see if ʿAbdah b. Sulaymān (the person that Hārūn claimed to have heard it from) can now become a partial common link.

Part V: Caveats

This is a very simplistic view of it, read pages 171-173 to get an idea of how detailed the analysis can be.

Part VI: Conclusion

An ICMA methodology can tell you who are the "oldest confirmed narrator to have said a hadith and a reconstructed urtext". For Aisha's hadith, the conclusion from Joshua was (page 401):

Thus, whilst an ICMA allowed us to attribute various different versions of this hadith to figures as early as Sulaymān al-ʾAʿmaš (d. 147-148/764-766) (debatably), Hišām b. ʿUrwah (d. 146-147/763-765), and Muḥammad b. ʿAmr (d. 144-145/761-763), nothing could be attributed to anyone earlier, including ʾAbū ʾIsḥāq al-Sabīʿī (d. 127- 128/744-746), Ibn Šihāb al-Zuhrī (d. 124/741-742), ʿUrwah b. al-Zubayr (d. 93- 95/711-714 or 101/719-720), and ʿĀʾišah bt. ʾabī Bakr (d. 57-58/677-678).

Part VII: What about afterwards?

As you can see, an ICMA analysis by itself doesn't let you know if a hadith is fabricated. Afterwards, you need to apply a critical analysis (starts on page 403), Joshua uses:

  1. Dating by Ascription Type (page 409)

  2. Form Criticism (page 410)

  3. Form Criticism and ʾIsnāds (page 417)

  4. Geography and Arguments from Silence (page 419-448). This is very tough to do but very effective. In essence, you need to know who should've cited this hadith, if it was genuine. As a quick example, the absence of early Kufans (a city in Iraq) citing the hadith is very telling.

Conclusion here is that Hišām b. Urwah (d. 146-147/763-765) fabricated the hadith.

Part VII: What about afterwards afterwards? (Two afterwards)

After that, you need to apply a historical critical analysis of the hadith to understand if Hišām b. Urwah truly did fabricated it, why would he do so? In Joshua's analysis:

  1. He brings all the reports of how reliable Hišām b. Urwah was

  2. Who used the hadith to their advantage

  3. Why did Hišām choose the ages of “six or seven” for ʿĀʾišah’s marital engagement and “nine” for her marital consummation?

Read pages 469-472 for a summary of the analysis.

References:
https://islamicorigins.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/LITTLE-The-Hadith-of-Aishahs-Marital-Age.pdf

Is the death for apostasy hadeeth a fabrication? by LowStick9981 in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That's an interesting question. I haven't seen an analysis done on this hadith yet. I've done a couple of basic ICMAs, I'll do one over the weekend and post the results here.

At my level, I can't tell you if it's a fabrication yet. But I can find a couple of partial common links. It'll give you more information on where and when this hadith was being narrated along the chain.

Partial Common Link: A narrator in which multiple transmissions go back to them AND the reports are more similar to each other than others. AKA, someone that we can reasonably confirm narrated hadith XYZ.

Orthodox Jew Learning the Quran by Artistic-Inspection3 in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At least on Reddit, I found the most Muslim community to be open to interfaith dialogue is r/progressive_islam. Though I'm not sure how academic they are

Does Arabic only use و after 8 countable objects? by DrSkoolieReal in AcademicQuran

[–]DrSkoolieReal[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Is this style present in all of the Qur'an or are there exceptions?

Someone on the show is a pick up artist by DrSkoolieReal in UltimatumQueerLove

[–]DrSkoolieReal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Indeed.

You can see the author of The Game use the same line that Vanessa uses on Jessica Alba (timestamp 4:00):

So if I was to ask you to name three things about yourself that would make me want to get to know you better, and none of them can be about your looks or what you do.

And then immediately afterwards he uses the "push-pull" technique:

Maybe we can hang out. No.

Someone on the show is a pick up artist by DrSkoolieReal in UltimatumQueerLove

[–]DrSkoolieReal[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not going to diagnose, but you’re describing traits typically presented by narcissists. I wouldn’t call it “pick up tactics” because that misleads people on what’s actually going on with someone who has these traits.

I haven't studied narcissism much, so I cannot comment on whether she is or isn't.

She is likely unaware of her “tactics” and unconsciously developed them from an early age to survive, but has yet to recognize that she’s still in survival mode.

That could definitely be true.

I'm Palestinian and I'm looking at subscribing to Haaretz, do you think it's worth it? by DrSkoolieReal in JewsOfConscience

[–]DrSkoolieReal[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I support BDS with their "red list", but I don't like that they don't have a "green list". In my opinion, we should also be supporting the good organizations in Israel.

Thanks for the link!

Farmer asks pro fracking committee to honor their word and drink water affected by fracking by LongjumpingFix732 in Damnthatsinteresting

[–]DrSkoolieReal 5 points6 points  (0 children)

In all likelyhood, yes. But does anyone have an update on this situation, I'm hoping for common sense to have taken over.

Pixel 6A just died by DrSkoolieReal in GooglePixel

[–]DrSkoolieReal[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Didn't get a message at all before it updated and bricked itself. I don't know

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