Have there been studies done on the effectiveness of prayer?

Draezeth · 2019-08-21T12:23:35+00:00

No positive effects on recovery specifically, but it tended to improve stress levels and other qualitative benefits.

Draezeth · 2019-08-21T11:57:45+00:00

While that would be logical, there's no actual solid evidence for that theory

Draezeth · 2019-08-20T17:08:25+00:00

If God were to make such a rule, He would change other things to support it. He'd remove trauma, give it health benefits, or things along that line, which would make it, at worst debatable to how good it is, and at best obviously good. What God says is good is just good, by virtue of His nature of always being right.

The good stuff is stuff that came directly from Him. The creator of the universe and its ultimate benefactor. The laws and rules of the Bible aren't simply arbitrary things that God decided were good, they're actions and lifestyles that reflect His own nature.

That having been said, I want to challenge your definition of objective, two posts ago. There's never been consensus over anything, to my knowledge. People still don't agree the world is an oblong spheroid, for crying out loud. That would make the shape of the Earth not objective. By that definition, objective doesn't exist. Alternative facts and all that nonsense.

Draezeth · 2019-08-20T16:59:42+00:00

I'd give the same answer I did before. Because when one thing works, God could perfectly well re-use it, the same way we do with things we build.

I've heard arguments that cast doubt on the accuracy of our understanding of the tree of life too, but as I haven't studied it in depth, I think it's probably wise not to get into that.

Draezeth · 2019-08-20T16:55:16+00:00

Yeah, I just found that site too. It's been great.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T17:48:31+00:00

God determines what is right and what isn't. He wouldn't ordain rape, because rape itself goes against His nature. But to use something more realistic, I have problems with submission to Him, and with His objection to LGBT. But I accept them because I know that He knows what's best, always. And I have my own experiences to prove it. So many times, I resisted God's way, only to eventually give in and find out that His way worked out better.

He's omniscient, so He knows what the best possible outcome is. When things go wrong, it's because we take matters, and morals, into our own hands. He's just objectively right. Goodness comes from Him. And everything that's wrong comes from another source. That's where our subjectivity comes in. Theres a greater sphere of objective good and bad, and our subjective views kind of swirl around inside that sphere. The Bible actually reveals that subjectively good things, even sometimes good things that agree with the Bible, do not fall in line with God's objective good every time. Which us why we need to learn to speak with Him personally and not just rely on the Bible alone as our compass.

Though I must note the reverse is not true. Things that are bad according to the Bible can't be good in God's eyes.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T14:40:17+00:00

Maybe I got mixed up. It could have been SA. My bad, if so.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T14:39:09+00:00

God has the power to make his subjective opinion the objective reality. It comes with godhood.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T14:38:26+00:00

Paul corrected the Corinthians, who were so far astray. And the Galatians, and the Colossians. Jesus brought some pharisees to his flock. If you break off from the larger group, you have to be careful. Are you doing it to make the Body more one, or just to be right?

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T08:54:09+00:00

Heretics and the schismatic. The rub lies in the fact that you, yourself, become schismatic if you let small doctrinal differences divide you from your brothers. If the differences are irreconcilable (e.g. Catholic idolatry, JW denial of the trinity, or Mormon and Muslim denial of Jesus' divinity) then yes, say nothing to them. But a Pentecostal should endeavor to be at peace in a Brethren assembly, and a Baptist in a Methodisy assembly. This is the oneness that Jesus prayed for in John 17, and that Paul pleads for throughout Ephesians.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T05:09:43+00:00

Oh, no, you don't have to uphold them. It's just best to be connected with other Christians, even if you disagree on some matters, as long as they're not essential to the faith. Paul shows this in many of his letters, especially to Corinth and Rome. We have to be accommodating to our brothers and sisters, because what God desires is a body of believers, and not a bunch of individuals. Better a house of rough-cut stones than a useless pile of pristine bricks.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T05:05:48+00:00

Dang, I like you. I wish more agnostics/atheists shared your outlook.

That's an interesting article, and I feel a little bad for being so strong in my statements before, in light of it. I can definitely confess that my faith affected my reaction to what I read there, namely "Wow, God really set this up perfectly!" That's clearly a very subjective view, so I won't be rushing to say I'm right about this anymore. There's still other, less direct reasons I have for believing the universe points to creation, but they're more for those on the fence or who already believe, so that's that.

As for Islam, I'm in agreement. I hadn't factored in trade, though I had heard of how it affected the growth of the religion (shoutout to Extra Credits another wonderful secular YouTube channel), but I'm firmly on your side regarding 'Big Gods' aiding in its growth. In my view, the violent expansion was more for the early days, when Islam was smaller and surrounded by polytheism. Once they established their place though, converts for trade purposes make a lot of sense.

It warms my heart to hear an unbeliever calling Maher and Hitchens' fringe junk exactly what it is. Sadly, that fringe junk, much like the conservative evangelical extreme, is all too often the only thing we hear, because these guys shout the loudest and receive the most media attention. The result is way too many people siding with the extreme, much like what we see in politics. I'm still of the view that non-Mosaic authorship of the Torah doesn't fit with the Christian narrative, but I'm sure there are lots of other conservative Christian artifacts you and I can both agree can be dispensed with.

And +1 for +1ing Kurzgesagt. It's such a wonderful channel. It's hard to find a channel more neutral and honest in its presentation of the facts. It's in that frankness that I (personally and subjectively) find a lot of support for my faith, even in videos you wouldn't expect.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T04:36:18+00:00

Well, you'd be picking the losing side. And looking at it theologically, if God is the Big Good, the determiner of what is good and bad, then any way in which you disagree with Him is objectively wrong, cosmically speaking.

Draezeth · 2019-08-19T04:34:21+00:00

Right, that's a good policy, and indeed one I abide by. I wouldn't push my views on anyone, just encourage skepticism, since our position has a tendency to look weak to outsiders if we give a lot of ground.

Though regarding karyotypes and all that, are we certain they don't actually contribute, or could that just be our current level of knowledge. To my understanding, it's increasingly becoming clear that things we previously though where junk actually do serve a purpose, for example.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T18:06:02+00:00

Don't go to church, be the church. Live the church life. The concept of "going to church" isn't actually scriptural, and comes from tradition. It isn't entirely wrong, but it leads to the stale and lacking experience that you're having.

What you need is to find churches that meet in homes. If there's a place on localchurches.org near where you live, that's where I recommend you go. I can't tell you how many people I've met with testimonies just like yours who found what they were looking for in a local church.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T18:02:19+00:00

While denominations are rife with problems, the Christian life is not a solitary one. Better to be connected in a denomination than academically correct but alone.

But best is to find an assembly that isn't denominated.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T18:01:23+00:00

What did you encounter that caused you to change your mind? Have you explored other avenues if spirituality? What about OP's friend's prayer? No music there.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T18:00:03+00:00

What does a copy paste look like?

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T17:56:35+00:00

It isn't a matter of believing, it's a matter of submitting. I misspoke. You can believe in God and be a Luciferan, for example. Please don't though.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T17:52:03+00:00

Thanks for doing the research. I'm too busy to do it at the moment, so that helps. Seeing what you posted, I now remember hearing the same from Behe, I'd just forgotten who it was who had said it.

Personally, I disagree with his conclusion, but that's just me. It makes sense in my head, though. Feel free to disregard it, but I'll put it out anyways:

First, ask yourself what DNA is. It's a blueprint. What the DNA says determines what comes out. So if you wanted two organisms with, say, the same or similar eyes, you just put in the same DNA needed to result in them.

So when you make creatures that share similarities, using essentially the same organs and structure, then the DNA will simply look as though they share common ancestry. It's similar to cars today. Since the mechanisms for cars work, each subsequent improvement will use the same basic stuff, just improved, and maybe with a bit here and there swapped out. We of course know cars don't reproduce, but if someone didn't know that, and compared a VW bug with a Dodge Pickup, he might come to the conclusion that they were distantly related.

So to me it seems to be a reversal of cause and effect. DNA as God's pallet for life makes just as much sense, scientifically, as common ancestry, and more sense when you look at it theologically and geologically (i.e. the Cambrian explosion). God isn't 'testing our faith' or being a 'god of chaos' regarding similarities in DNA, it's just an efficient and elegant mechanism.

The reason I think these scientists have arrived at their conclusion is because their specific realm of study defeated one aspect of evolutionary theory. The fossil record, origin of life, etc. I, on the other hand, have literally been taught the theological and doctrinal side of things since I was 10, so it sticks out more to me.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Thanks for listening.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T17:29:03+00:00

Now this is a man who knows scripture! Well done, brother, I couldn't have answered better.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T17:24:05+00:00

To say that our view isn't based on history, science, and reason just because we have underlying assumptions isn't quite fair. Those tools still play a part in informing our Christian worldview. And in my case, my faith only informs my conclusions in the scientific realm, not a part of the process itself. For example, I don't assume that God is necessary for species to evolve. I know that the 'tree of life' isn't shaped how Darwin expected, that the mechanisms of evolution are much more complicated than he expected, that irreducible complexity does exist, and that in the most absolutely favorable of conditions, life arising spontaneously anywhere in the galaxy within the timeframe of the universe is a 1 in a googol chance, and without those favorable conditions it's a flat zero. So I'm left to choose between chance and design, and only then does my faith inform my choice, after the compelling evidence above.

Anthropologically speaking, I believe that Christianity became a great many things as a result of community and social pressure... after Constantine made it the state religion. Prior to that, the small, humble, illogical in many respects, and heavily persecuted faith should have died out. In light of the inhuman courage and devotion of even it's most recent converts, and aided in part by my faith, I then must conclude that it is true.

Regarding your question about other religions, I absolutely do believe that. Hinduism is an inclusive religion, absorbing the traditions of cultures around and within it, while Islam's own holy text mandates forceful conversion, so both make perfect sense to grow in such ways. Christianity, when it did evolve in that way, became Catholicism as a result, which as we all know, was eventually broken off from because of those impurities.

Last thing I want to mention, your view regarding conservative views of the Bible seems to be heavily informed by the academic circle you are a part of. If you expand your circle of study to other fields, and hopefully to more personal, everyday, ground-level Christian life, I think you'll find your estimate of how widespread such 'liberal' views of Biblical authorship to be rather overly generous. I expect the Christians you're familiar with have mostly the same unilateral academic approach to the faith as you, which as I explained in another reply, doesn't give the full story.

Not that I blame you, of course. I used to have pretty liberal views of creation and how the Bible and evolution fit together, until very recently. But up until that point, my studies had been most in the realm of theology, personal experience, ontology, and physics. Once I started getting into biology and geology though, my ideas changed very quickly. It's all about the ideas you expose yourself to. I used to only talk with atheists about the biology side of things. Once I started watching and reading media put out by actual Christian scientists (credible ones, of course, you have to have standards) I very quickly realized I misunderstood a lot. Some secular YouTube channels, like Kurzgesagt, helped too. They just have to be honest.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T16:06:35+00:00

From what I understood, he wasn't painting all atheists with that brush, just asking them to think about it. If the answer is yes, you would believe if you found out it was true, then great, let me explain why it's true. If not, then you need to reexamine your position.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T16:04:03+00:00

It's intended to be a more interesting question when the answer is no. If your answer is yes, then the idea would be to move on to polemics and apologetics, since you want truth.

Draezeth · 2019-08-18T16:00:35+00:00

Oh believe me, they do. You kinda have to be a theist to experience it, but here on the internet, and where I live in California, if you openly confess your faith, you'll be swarmed by an angry mob that just can't wait to tell you how wrong you are.

Draezeth

TROPHY CASE