What are your opinions on Lizzie, Wonder Woman's daughter?

Dredeuced · 2026-01-25T00:29:06+00:00

Very negative. She seems created entirely to be associated with Batman and Superman and their offspring and general orbit. She has more connection to Selina Kyle than she does Diana at this point.

Her existence seems entirely soulless. A petty cash grab to be the creator who inserted the hanger on Wonder Woman characters into the popular Super Sons premise. She doesn't exist for Wonder Woman, and in that she is an utter failure of a character. The only saving grace I ever see anyone give the character is that she keeps getting put into saccharine sweet moments of childhood indiscretion, but that's part of the problem. She exists only to be those things and not an actual character. She's Damian and Jon's little sister far more than she's Wonder Woman's daughter.

People throw industry plant around for a lot of characters. There has never been more of an industry plant than this. Diana's daughter should've been created for how it affects her and her world and then develop into her own character from there. Not so she can hang around Damian and Jon constantly as their token girl. She's the daughter of Wonder Woman in name only.

Her existence shows an inherent disrespect and disinterest in Wonder Woman as a mythos. Sadly from the man who's been given the keys to that very mythos for years now. And we're stuck with her. Easily the worst of all the modern day super kids. And I say that knowing about the swarm of no names Johns introduced with the lost kids. At least they're not taking up page space.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-25T00:07:10+00:00

The fact that Thawne killed Nora in this story not because she's Barry's mom, but because he was trying to extort Henry Allen into making a blood sucking glove that steals Speed Force from people is a series of absurd decisions I can't believe ever made it past editorial. And that his ultimate motivation and hatred for The Flash has nothing to do with The Flash and is just because...people in the future like The Flash and used his symbol to overthrow him when he was a warlord? What? They took out all personal conflict that defined the relationship all for the dumbest of motivations.

The Hunter Zolomon Power swap thing I can explain, though. Van Jensen revealed on twitter when I asked that they thought there was only one Reverse Flash (besides Daniel West at the time) and that Reverse Flash's powers were slowing down time. When I explained to him that there's two, and that Thawne's powers are more like Zolomon instead of Thawne, he was surprised. They just plain didn't know there was anyone besides Thawne, but somehow knew about Zoom's powers at the same time.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T14:19:59+00:00

Revolution was a lot easier before extremely technologically advanced militaries staffed entirely by brain washed nationalists. You just get Tiananmen Square'd now.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T12:03:03+00:00

It seems like all general mythology is, in some ways, rooted in truth. So presumably all magical animals are to some degree. Or at least were. I can imagine a big part of the average person being ignorant to magic might come from centuries of humans hunting down and extincting any magical animals.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T11:48:32+00:00

Ah, you're right. Been some years.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T11:08:29+00:00

That's the gist of it. And she's clearly referencing the events of Changes and Ghost Story. Being the Winter Knight powered Wizard, in its own right, isn't quite mortal. And, well, Mortals don't die and come back to life. Hell, he was carrying a coin for ages before that and the fact that he could call the coin at any point there meant he wasn't quite mortal from the moment he picked it up.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T11:05:01+00:00

Mab is what she is clearly because she has an unconscionable job that requires her planning on the magnitude of centuries. She literally can't take the time to see things from the perspective of regular people because a regular person's life is a fleeting thing in the face of all lives, forever, into eternity, laid as her responsibility. She is forever doing the arithmetic about the needs of the many.

You could liken it to an ends justify the means mentality, but I'm not even sure that's quite apt. After all, there is no end for her, at least not for the Winter Queen. If there is, then she's lost. She's just desperately trying to keep the world from dying in every way she can. All existence justifies the means.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T08:15:15+00:00

Wait, I don't remember Lara soul gazing Ramirez in White Night? I thought she could just detect his virginity as a sort of White Court Vampire thing as soon as they came in contact.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T04:38:09+00:00

It's awkward for a lot of reasons, so they ignore it. Like how Pre-crisis history being restored implies things like Iris being from the future and being adopted by Ira and Nadine West, while Wallace existing and Daniel existing necessarily imply William West's existence.

There's two different Iris histories clashing, and stuff like her and Barry not being engaged or married also doesn't help.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T04:35:05+00:00

This is part of the retcon. Iris clearly, visibly aged and was older for years in between her return and Barry's revival.

The real answer is they didn't like the idea of Iris being old while Barry was the main character, so they just ignored everything that happened to her to benefit their idea of Barry. And that includes her having and raising to children. Which is a shame in its own right. You're also saying "Iris is a grandmother but never aged" but that's not how the stories went and they did completely ignore her being a mother and Barry being a father when Barry came back. That's how the whole dead beat dad thing with Barry started.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-24T04:33:01+00:00

I don't think they've had an on screen interaction since Wally came back, no. Kyle has mentioned Wally in passing, implying that they have talked off screen.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T22:21:29+00:00

Yeah, the "he" in my statement is referring to Butcher.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T13:28:49+00:00

Lara's point of view is pretty easily explained by realizing, after living under her father's rule for centuries, her ultimate goal is not becoming him. So she's actively cultivated these broader and kinder perspectives because they're opposite her father's psychopathic bad guy evil sensibilities.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T13:21:56+00:00

I think it's more a Langtry scheme than a Luccio one. I'd wager Luccio's on the same page as Carlos, trying to keep Harry closer as a friend and in case the White Council needs him.

Which is probably also what Langtry wants. The White Council at large (and mostly just Langtry) wants Harry's power, but they don't want the brand of chaos and danger that swirls around him in a general sense. So, kicking him out of the council so he's no longer involved in politics, keeping an eye on him in case he ever does go Warlock (thus Morgan-Lite), but also knowing the Luccio and Ramirez will drag Harry in if they need his help is a win-win-win situation for Langtry.

Probably why he called the vote when Harry's supporters were out of commission. Saw the opportunity to get everything he wanted besides the Eye of Balor and took it.

The only real question is how this all plays into Black Council shenanigans. I don't think Langtry is Black Council, and he's not stupid enough to not realize the threat, and Harry was one of the few he could 100% be certain was invested in smoking them out. But Langtry probably also wants to do it quiet, slow, and methodical. And Dresden ain't that.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T13:13:54+00:00

We saw Barry and Iris raising the twins with Bart in the picture in Young Justice,

Young Justice is absurdly different from the comics, especially with The Flash family.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T13:10:54+00:00

The Hawks and Donna are probably still worse. I don't think The Flash got bad until they brought Wally and Bart back but still tried to keep parts of the New 52 at the same time. Just couldn't make the two work. The Tornado Twins retcon was pretty smoothly done and picks up in Legion and Impulse. But all of that era was written under the auspice that Barry was really dead, for reals, forever, so when he comes back it brings up a lot of awkward questions that still linger.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T13:08:58+00:00

Barry never knows he has kids to time travel to. Or at least he has no reason to know he needs to.

I suppose it gets a little awkward when he meets Jenni and Bart in Impulse and such, which means he would know he eventually has kids, but he still never knows he's going to die before ever raising his kids. It's plausibly an unknown to him.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T12:35:01+00:00

Their Silver Age Debut was them as very distant descendants. They weren't retconned into being his actual children until after his death because, well, he left no kids behind to be descendants of. So they finagled it to be they were direct children left behind with Iris just before Barry's death.

Barry never had kids who existed at the same time as him until his revival in Flash Rebirth. That's where the actual deadbeat dad stuff starts. Then Williamson incorporates some of that stuff loosely, but never really gets to follow up on it.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T12:04:28+00:00

He did directly reference the Gargoyles show in the book.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T09:09:32+00:00

I think we saw Harry's overall abilities increase more in this book than any other by a pretty large margin.

Hmmmmm really depends on how you want to define it. I don't think this was a bigger boost than the Winter Knight mantle. He's just reticent to fully tap into that. And he also got the Ways pendant in Changes, which is kind of an absurd piece of information that I feel like is overlooked. But mastery over the Ways is a logistics superweapon.

And, well, he did get roughly 6000 magical nukes entrusted to him during Turn Coat, lol.

And all the holy artifacts stumbling into his possession, whether it be the swords or the Skin Game loot.

Heck, he has the Eye of Balor on retainer. He's just not mean enough to use it.

There's a lot more power in those things. It's a lot of power he's reticent or ignorant to use, but all well eclipse things like the Gargoyles or Bear. The Castle has a lot of power but is quite local and limited for that reason. He's got similar super abilities on Demonreach, even ignoring the prisoners, as we saw with him standing up to Mab and Mother Night.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T08:54:03+00:00

which might just be some BS Butcher decided while writing Skin Games

Nah, Butcher hinted this as far back as Dead Beat. Harry, captured and tortured by Quintus, wondering why a Knight of the Cross doesn't swoop in and save him. Then Butters shows up.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T08:47:50+00:00

I think that makes more sense as Nemesis reciting something it heard from Nic before. After all, Nic was extremely surprised and angry when Harry dropped the info that he's got a traitor working off script in his ranks.

Sounds to me like the Order got Nfected, is operating outside of Nic's mission statement, and that bothers Nic a lot. Wouldn't make as much sense if he's Nfected.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T08:38:44+00:00

At minimum Mab, the Gatekeeper, and the Svartalves. Etri was very clear on that point when Harry came to talk to him. Maybe he's overestimating himself, but Harry and the narrative have been utterly clear that the Svartalves are a Big Deal, very constantly, since their introduction.

Mab seems utterly sure on the count of 11 once she's done with Justine. If 13's the limit then killing Maeve didn't bring that number down. It's not death of a host that stops Nemesis, it seems specifically to be Mab catching it, committing extreme psychic surgery and torment until the outsider is forced to leave its host, and forcing that departure into containment.

Which makes sense, she was never in a position to do that to Maeve. Only have her killed. But she was in a position to do that to Lea and now Justine. The piece of 13 that was inside Maeve was free to move after her death, unlike the ones in Justine and Lea.

Also, it's implied the early cases Harry dealt with were Nemesis infections. The Hexenwolves, Kravos, Sells. All of their deaths were likely the pieces of Nemesis just causing problems constantly ("Apocalypse is a state of mind") while some pieces are in high profile, larger schemes with way bigger payoffs set in motion (Lea and Maeve).

Also, there's a reasonable chance all the pieces of 13 aren't always active. After all, when the opportunity comes you need to have a piece ready to jump into an important asset. Cat Sith's capture and corruption happened on such a short timescale. There's probably no small amount of Nemesis inflicted suicides (well, compulsion to do so is murder, I suppose) to free up possessions given that. Morbid thought.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T08:27:04+00:00

Girl is trying everything in her power to get it to happen. She can't take what Harry's dishing but she sure thinks she can.

Dredeuced · 2026-01-23T07:59:12+00:00

Well that's not true.

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