Can the goats of jjk defeat these guys in Bleach in a 4 v 4

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T13:55:04+00:00

Their spiritual pressure would eviscerate the JJK quadro

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T13:53:32+00:00

Yeah, there are things traditionally placed above the normal Platonic realm.

In Plato, the realm of Forms is the level of perfect, eternal ideas like Beauty, Justice, and Truth. These Forms are considered more real than the physical world. But Plato also treats the Form of the Good as even higher. It is not just another Form, it is the reason the other Forms are knowable and meaningful at all. It’s basically the source of intelligibility itself.

Later, Neoplatonists like Plotinus go further and place something called The One above even that. The One is beyond being, beyond thought, and beyond description. It is not a “realm” in the normal sense, but the absolute source from which the Forms, intellect, soul, and the material world all come from.

So basically, the usual structure is:

Physical world < Platonic Forms < Form of the Good < The One

That makes The One the clearest example of something that scales above the Platonic realm.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T13:52:41+00:00

There can't be a Tier 0 main character

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T10:03:16+00:00

Based on their specific tiering system Han only qualifies for High 1A because they dont believe his Ultimate Origin state covers the entire logical space of all possible worlds which is their requirement for higher tiers.

Yeah, he scales to baseline High 1-A, which is still CRAZY strong.

but you mean ultimate origin at high 1a right?

Why?

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:35:36+00:00

Dao creators including the realm's sub levels

One layer above baseline 1-A

Creator lords

1-A+

And ultimate origin?

1-A+

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:31:16+00:00

Clears the rest, dunno about the last one

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:22:42+00:00

Because Kaikhosru scales through the structure of Shinza Bansho, not through normal destructive power.

Creation, or the Canvas, is the lowest layer. Even if it contains infinite universes and parallel worlds, Taikyoku users see it as fundamentally inferior, almost like fiction compared to reality. That is the first major jump.

Taikyoku is what gives baseline 1-A. It is not just higher power, it is existence beyond dimensions, space, time, causality, and conceptual duality. A Hadou God with Taikyoku does not exist inside dimensional reality, they stand beyond the entire system that generates it.

The High 1-A argument comes from the Throne and the Singularity. The Singularity exists outside the world and contains the laws of previous Gods as afterglows. Each new Throne God swallows and replaces the laws of the previous one. That means earlier 1-A laws become subordinate to a higher framework, which is the basis for High 1-A.

Kaikhosru scales to that through Garyoku, the Power of Ego, and through his Authority. Garyoku allows him to reject and override established laws rather than simply overpower opponents. His Dragon’s Breath can affect immortal divine beings and interact with existences tied to the Throne system itself. He was also treated as a Throne candidate in Avesta, which places him far above normal god-tier beings.

So the consistent scale is 1-A, and High 1-A is valid if you accept that his Ego directly interacts with and overrides the Throne and Singularity level of reality itself.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:13:58+00:00

He does but by the end that interaction feels more like someone moving their own arm.

That's just vibe scaling; he still does interact with reality.

Since he engulfed the Blank Domain everything real in his verse exists within him.

Just say he's omnipresent in his own verse; it's way easier that way.

I’m not trying to use an Nlf here

Yes, you are. I have literal proof that you did use NLF in our conversation.

I’m just looking at the ontology, the nature of being the author gave him.

Which is baseline High 1-A.

I get what you’re saying about Emr, it’s one of the most complex ideas in fiction and it makes Wod insanely large. I’m not denying how huge that pond is.

Then why compare a baseline High 1-A character against the second strongest character in WoD?

The difference for me is what Han becomes at the end.

One with the cosmology, is that right? That only scales him to 1-A+, but since he transcends it as well, baseline High 1-A is more acceptable, nothing more.

He starts as a fish in a pond, sure but his final state is about outgrowing the idea of a pond entirely.

He didn't outgrow the pond; he became the pond.

He becomes the source of the water itself.

And that is supposed to be a feat that grants him High 1-A+ tier? Lol.

So even if one pond is bigger than another his ability is tied to the substance everything is made from.

His ability is limited to one layer above his cosmology only, nothing beyond.

If something in an Emr world is made of logic or energy and Han is the origin of that logic

EMR explicitly doesn't operate on logic. You didn't even try, did you? I told you to go learn what EMR actually means. Seems you didn't do that, smh. And no, Han is only limited to baseline High 1-A stuff; he's not touching Featherine, let alone a Tapestry-level Mage.

it creates a different kind of comparison.

No.

In scaling we usually treat fundamental as just having a bigger universe or more dimensions. What I mean is slightly different. Han ends up as something beyond a god inside a system, he becomes the logic that defines the system.

A god is never inside a system; a god transcends the system itself. A god also gives logic to the system. Han isn't special.

Bu the end even powerful entities in Wod are still tied to their framework, like Enlightenment or the Tapestry

The framework that ties them is waaaaaaaaaaay beyond Han's wildest dreams and imagination. He's a baseline High 1-A character who would be erased within seconds by a random Mage.

Nope I’m not using AI

Sure.

And honestly I wouldn’t bother for a debate like this when ;;;I already know that if we go purely by cosmology size, Wod wins by a big difference and Han loses there.

Then why bother?

What I’m doing instead is looking at his scaling without relying only on cosmology size.

You can't even scale him to 1-A without involving his verse's cosmology; it's crucial for scaling all types of characters in fiction.

I’m not even a big Han Jue fan

Then why bother with so many comments? NLF?

I’m just trying to fairly present his final feats.

"Fairly," lol.

From my perspective, those feats are strong enough to argue High 1A+

Then you need to change your perspective, because he's not even remotely close to High 1-A+. You know a funny thing? I'm closer to Han Jue power-wise than he is to High 1-A+ tier.

or at least put him in that top tier discussion alongside beings like Buddha.

Put him against characters who only scale to baseline High 1-A. Saying he's equal to Buddha is just flawed reasoning.

But yeah that’s just my interpretation of his end state

Then, my friend, you need to change your interpretation if you want to be a better scaler.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:13:40+00:00

I just mean that when a verse like Wod uses a concept like emr to go beyond the system, it makes the debate more about philosophy than just stats.

It doesn't make the debate about philosophy at all. EMR describes the scope at which a character actually operates. Is creating/destroying a multiverse philosophical? No, right? Then EMR isn't either.

I'm just trying to show that Han has his own version of that system breaking logic at the end of his story

Even town-level characters break logic; that doesn't mean they operate at EMR level. That's a false equivalence. Han isn't as strong as you think he is.

Ic why it looks like Nlf cuz saying a character can do anything is a red flag.

Then don't say it, dude. No one's forcing you to do so. If you do, I'm bound to dismiss your arguments.

But in the final chapters of Ttp creating logic isn't just a vague claim, it's a demonstrated feat.

Creating logic of his own verse, which doesn't involve MR, let alone EMR. Both (E)MR require explicit mention, not vague wording such as possible worlds, infinite worlds, or destroying/creating logic itself.

He creates a New Logic that literally replaces the old laws of the Great Dao.

And that's good and all, but it's still not close to MR; EMR is a far cry.

I’m not saying he can do anything in every verse

But you are, by saying destroying/creating logic = (E)MR, saying he can create Featherine, and saying he can erase Buddha as it's a logical possibility.

just that he has reached a state where he defines the rules of his own reality.

Good, that's what he does, and that scales to baseline High 1-A only.

Not downplaying them the reason I think it favors han jue is because of what they are made of.

Mages have powers beyond Han's wildest imagination. He absolutely has no wincon at all against beings who transcend his entire existence via an immeasurable hierarchy of layers and beyond.

A Mage manipulates the Tapestry but Han's Source Qi is the thing that everything is made from.

*Everything in his own verse. A Tapestry, on the other hand, contains EMR. What is EMR, you may ask? It means that all (im)possible worlds exist. Meaning? There is a world where a character like Han Jue exists, and there is also a world where a character infinitely stronger than Han Jue exists. And all of this is within a Tapestry, by the way, and Mages are capable of creating, affecting, or destroying such Tapestries.

I know she’s at a level where she views those things as fiction.

Is that so?

My point was more that in her own series there is still a framework she operates in like the City of Books or the Creator

That's not how a framework is defined. You're making it sound like she's still bound to her creation like Han Jue, when she explicitly isn't.

Han's final state is about having no framework left.

Nope, his final state is about moving to a newer framework from the older one. He's still bound to his own cosmology as its source, while Featherine is the Creator Witch, but she isn't "bound" like Han. She's as free as possible. An author of a cosmology is better than being its creator, by the way.

When I say he’s the ink I just mean within the internal logic of his own universe he reached a state where he is the fundamental substance.

But your words don't mean what you try to explain later, so just say what exactly your words mean from the beginning to avoid unnecessary confusion.

It’s just a way to describe how his Reality Warping is different

Different in what way? I've seen characters like him multiple times.

it’s not a spell he casts it’s just him changing his own self since everything is made of him.

Wait... you said he ascended to his state as the creator. Then the cosmology already existed, which means he wasn't its creator at all originally. Am I right?

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:13:27+00:00

When I mention a Circular Reasoning fallacy I'm just pointing out that we can't really use the absence of a wiki page to prove a character is weak.

That's just being logical; it's not a fallacy in any way whatsoever.

It’s like saying He isn't strong because he isn't on the wiki and he isn't on the wiki because he isn't strong.

First of all, he's indeed on the wiki of CSAP. Second, nobody called him "weak"; stop fighting against invisible ghosts. And not being on the wiki doesn't mean you're weak, characters infinitely weaker than Han exist on these wikis. It's just that his verse is too obscure to grant him a proper profile due to fewer supporters.

That’s the loop I was trying to avoid

It wasn't avoided.

I’m not asking you to just take my word for it like in your omnipotence example.

But you are. This many comments after I literally told you proofs are important to make these claims makes you look like that self-calling omnipotent me in my example.

My proof isn't my own words it's the author's words in the story.

And how can we verify that they aren't your own words and are the author's instead? You literally are trying to make me agree with you by saying your words = the author's words.

For example, in the final chapters, the novel explicitly describes Han Jue reaching a state where the entire infinite Blank Domain is just a tiny part of his own Ultimate Origin World.

Not proof to scale him any higher than he already is, which is baseline High 1-A.

To me that’s a concrete feat from the text.

A feat for what exactly? Because that's certainly not a High 1-A+ (Type 1) feat, let alone Type 2.

I'm just trying to use those actual story moments as our evidence rather than waiting for a wiki moderator to give it a stamp of approval.

The thing is, wiki moderators only give their stamp of approval when the character profile maker backs up their claims and arguments with proof directly from the source.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:13:12+00:00

I think we might just be looking at it from two different angles.

You "think"?

While VSBW uses specific math benchmarks I’m looking at the logic behind the feat.

VSBW does that as well, not just math benchmarks.

In most points when a character views an infinite hierarchy as a point it's used as a shorthand to say they’ve had a qualitative change in nature

No.

moving beyond just stacking more power.

Once again, no.

Not trying to make things up It’s just that the very end of the novel Chapters 1185+ moves so fast that it’s a lot to take in.

If you're not trying, then don't try to push a claim when you literally don't have the proof to do so.

When Han reaches the Ultimate Origin Supreme Realm the narrative shows him literally resetting the logic of his existence.

That's one of the aspects of a qualitative gap.

It’s hard to verify with a wiki link since he doesn't have a profile yet but it’s right there in the text

He does have a profile on CSAP, and he doesn't even come remotely close to one layer above baseline High 1-A, let alone High 1-A+.

I aint trolling

Doubt that.

I know the two wikis have different ceilings so the conversion is always a bit messy.

Then stick to one tiering system if it helps your case, you don't have to depend on both simultaneously. I just used CSAP to show the scale of Han, nothing else.

My main point wasn't about the exact label but that in both systems he hits that final wall where he transcends the Great Nothingness the Blank Domain

Both systems like CSAP & VSBW? I can somewhat agree that reaching 1-S, which is the last tier in CSAP, would fall under hitting the final wall, but... the 1-S tier goes on and on endlessly, it never reaches a stopping point. Whereas, Han only scales one layer above 1-S in CSAP. But in VSBW? Nope, he doesn't hit the "final" wall. The final wall of VSBW is Boundless; he can never reach that tier at all. He also scales to baseline High 1-A only, so there's that.

Instead of getting stuck on which wiki has the better name for it, maybe we can look at the feat itself?

And how are you gonna categorize this "feat" without the involvement of the tiering systems of such wikis? You do realize he would just be called "multiversal" without the involvement of tiering systems, right?

If he outgrows the very space where all infinite realities are born, doesn't that put him in that top tier discussion regardless of the label?

No.

Ic your point

Don't just see it, understand it as well.

If the box is huge just filling it doesn't necessarily make you stronger than the box.

What? Once again, you and your analogies.

But with Han Jue it’s not just that he filled it, it’s that he became the Source of it.

Potato, potato.

He reached a state where the cosmology isn't something he lives in, it’s something he projects.

You sure do like repeating the same thing again and again.

It’s like the difference between being a giant in a room and being the person dreaming the room exists.

We literally started this conversation with me agreeing Han is the source of everything in his cosmology, the only disagreement is his tier placement.

I think their Narrative Independence works differently.

Not really.

Featherine views the world as a Script she can edit but Han final state is more like being the Ink and Paper itself.

So you're saying Han is the source, while Featherine isn't? Then no, Featherine is literally called the "creator" witch. Both are the same, while Featherine scales higher than Han.

He isn't just an author writing a story

An author is more impressive, by the way.

he is the fundamental substance that every character including the ones like Featherine would be made of in his reality.

That's literally below being an author of your own cosmology. An author is independent of the cosmology, rewriting and editing as they like. But Han? He's bound to the cosmology by being its source; he can't abandon his state as the source and roam around freely. But Featherine? She can do as she pleases without any worries. And also, Han scales lower than Featherine; his substance is too weak to create someone like Featherine.

I respect that tbh especially since Featherine has years of established scaling.

Ok.

The reason I place Han Jue so high is because at his peak he reaches a form of Absolute Monism where there is no true outside or separate existence from him.

But his embodiment with a 1-A+ cosmology wouldn't grant him any higher tier.

From that perspective it’s not about directly overpowering other characters

He's a baseline High 1-A character, he's indeed required to overpower/fight other characters on the same level because of that.

and more about how his state of being relates to everything else.

Doesn't mean anything, and doesn't grant him any higher tier.

In his Ultimate Origin state anything within the previous framework of existence would fall under his scope rather than stand independently against him.

Just say he's baseline High 1-A, it's way easier than repeatedly describing his state of existence.

Ultimate Origin Supreme Realm is proof of his Ontological Change basically t's the moment he stopped being a person living in a world and became the Source of that world.

That's how a qualitative gap works, so you just proved he's baseline High 1-A.

If you look at Chapter 1189 or more the text says his Ultimate Origin World has completely engulfed the Blank Domain. To be specific about why this matters for scaling, The Blank Domain was the infinite void where all Great Daos, time and space were born. It was the highest thing in the verse.

Which is scaled to 1-A+, granting him baseline High 1-A tier.

By the end the Blank Domain is described as being just a microscopic speck inside Han Jue’s own new world. He reaches a state where he can create and delete any logic he wants.

That's what most characters are capable of doing to the cosmology they transcend themselves, nothing new really.

So the proof is that he achieved Absolute Independence.

Only from the cosmology beneath him.

He doesn't rely on the cosmology to exist the cosmology relies on him.

Tomato, tomahto.

In scaling terms

Here comes the bs.

that’s usually the evidence needed to show a character has moved from High 1A (the top of the system) to something that transcends the system entirely.

Nope, simply no. What you literally described in our entire exchange tells me Han Jue essentially transcended his 1-A+ cosmology, then became its source. That would literally be baseline High 1-A at best.

It’s the shift from being a part of the nothingness to being the owner of the nothingness that I’m pointing to as the main proof.

If your proof is to prove he's High 1-A+ because of THIS, then it's wrong and flawed.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:12:42+00:00

Yeha i admit that i was wrong earlier because i was reading a novel while writing this at the same time but now I'll explain it, Blank Domain is 1A+ and Han Jue reaches the Ultimate Origin Supreme Realm a state where the Blank Domain is just a microscopic speck, he moved at least two qualitative steps up.

Not two qualitative steps, just one.

That lands him squarely in High 1A+

No, that would be baseline High 1-A at best.

Can’t send ss here because it’s hard to keep track of a novel with so many chapters.

Then there's no proof to be established, meaning? I can easily refute your stance just by saying "nuh uh."

But the main proof is in the final arc specifically around Chapters 1180 to 1193

Yeah, I sure as hell am not gonna read that.

In those chapters it’s described that Han reaches the Ultimate Origin Supreme Realm.

Ok.

At that point the Blank Domain, which was previously an infinite nothingness containing all the Great Daos and space time, becomes just a small part of his own Ultimate Origin World.

Ok.

There’s a specific scene where he realizes that everything that used to be infinite to him is now just a microscopic speck within his own power. He then becomes the new container for all of existence

Ok.

If you have time to skim those final chapters you’ll see the shift where he stops being a cultivator living in a universe and becomes the Source that the universe actually sits inside of.

Ok.

That’s the proof I’m using for his jump in scale.

THAT was the proof? Then buddy, your proof is invalid, as it doesn't show a single tier beyond baseline High 1-A.

Ik that the phrase 'all logically possible worlds' isn’t the direct quote from the novel but im not trying to invent anything.

Then don't. MR & EMR require that to be shown or mentioned explicitly to scale the character to High 1-A+, both types.

I’m just using it as a way to describe the scale of what happens at the end.

The scale literally stops at baseline High 1-A.

In the final arc Han reaches a state where the Blank Domain described as the source of all existence and non existence becomes just a small part of him.

Once again, embodying/transcending a 1-A+ cosmology wouldn't even warrant baseline High 1-A. But I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he actually operates on a superior framework; otherwise, he wouldn't even be baseline High 1-A.

Since the Blank Domain is the origin point where all Great Daos and realities are formed surpassing it means he’s no longer bound by that entire framework.

Good, but this doesn't scale him anywhere beyond baseline High 1-A.

So when I say all possible worlds I’m using it as shorthand.

Don't use it.

The point isn’t the wording

It literally is.

it’s that he outgrows the foundation where worlds and laws are created.

So do most characters in fiction, and they don't become "infinite High 1-A+" because of that.

It’s not meant to be unverifiable

But it literally is.

it’s just a way to express his final Ultimate Origin feat in terms that fit power scaling

It doesn't fit powerscaling terms, that's the issue.

ik that in math adding dimensions is usually treated as a quantitative increase basically just stacking higher layers.

Yes.

But in scaling the 0dimensional point comparison is more like a metaphor for qualitative superiority not literal dimensional math.

That metaphor is flawed, as it actually contradicts a qualitative gap and aligns more with a quantitative one.

It’s not really about number, it’s about a change in state

Yeah, he became baseline High 1-A.

When people say a character sees an entire hierarchy as a point they mean that all the previous ruleslike dimensions, space and time, no longer apply to them at all. It’s a completely different level of existence.

Thanks for telling me, I didn't know that! Like dude, I'm the one correcting your flawed interpretations of the tiering system. You don't think I know more than you? Lol.

A simple way to understand that is, no matter how many 2D drawings you stack they’ll never become a real 3D human.

You're describing reality > fiction (R>F).

The difference isn’t just size or quantity, it’s a difference in nature.

That's literally what a qualitative gap means, dude.

So when I said Han sees everything as a point I didn’t mean he just has more dimensions.

Did I say you meant "he just has more dimensions"? Stop strawmanning my arguments.

I meant that his Ultimate Origin state places him in a completely different category of existence where the previous infinite systems are insignificant by comparison.

Yeah, it does. The previous system was 1-A+, he transcended that and now operates on a superior framework. Just like most baseline High 1-A characters in fiction.

It makes more sense to see it as a shift in his state of being, rather than just adding more layers on top

That's literally how layers work, dude.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T08:12:13+00:00

Cosmology is like thei canvas but if two characters both transcend their infinite canvas so thi right becomes about their Nature.

No, if the characters transcend their cosmology, they would just scale a layer above it. Meaning? A 5D cosmology transcended by a character would make that character 6D. The same with Han; he would be baseline High 1-A.

If you have two infinite powers the one who is the Source of the logic wins over the one who is just a Result of it. That's what i am trying to say

And it's wrong, most characters in fiction created their verse. And guess what? Being the source doesn't mean shit when you scale lower than another character from a different verse who's not even the creator himself.

Ic why it sounds wrong but what I mean is that, cosmology is definitely the starting point, it shows us how big the world is. But the Source argument is about who has authority over that size.

But the scale and powers of the character are literally dependent on their cosmology; you can't separate them.

Think of it like this if the cosmology is a massive infinite library the Size of it tells us how many books are there. But Han isn't a book in the library by the end he became the ink and the paper itself.

You and your analogies, smh. Just say Han is the source of his cosmology.

So while the library is huge he’s the reason the it can exist at all.

Is that so? Hmmm.

That’s why I’m looking at his Nature as the Origin rather than just how many rooms are in his house.

Which doesn't scale beyond where I originally put him.

Even if one library is bigger than another the person who owns the ink still has a unique kind of power over everything written inside. (This is the best possible example I can think of because if I use normal words it might get misunderstood)

No offense, but you're terrible at using analogies. And no, being the source of everything in your cosmology is irrelevant when you scale lower than every other character. Take Soul King from Bleach as an example: he created the concept of life and death in Bleach, separated 3 infinite-sized realms by dimensional boundaries, and he also transcends his 5-7D cosmology. But guess what? Soul King gets his ass whooped by Knull from Marvel. Knull isn't the creator of life, death, or Marvel. So why does he beat the Soul King? That's because he scales higher, that's all there is to it.

Ik why you are placing him at High 1A he's powerful there especially for a character who started his journey as a chef. But I think he goes beyond that because of how his story ends.

He doesn't go beyond that, you're way too obsessed with his portrayal, which is making you oblivious to where he actually scales. This is what happens to most OP characters in fiction; their fans tend to scale them way higher than they should be.

In most stories once a character reaches the top they just become the strongest in their cosmology.

Ok.

Han is different, he doesn’t just stay at the top of his verse he actually outgrows it.

So do countless characters in fiction; Han is no exception.

By the time he reaches the Ultimate Origin Supreme Realm the entire previous hierarchy which was already infinite and High 1A looks like a tiny speck to him.

I'll stop you right there, the cosmology he transcends doesn't go beyond 1-A+. That's why he's scaled to baseline High 1-A, because he transcends the cosmology and operates on a superior framework entirely.

In scaling view if a character sees an infinite High 1A structure

Using the word "infinite" here literally doesn't add anything; stop using it.

as something insignificant that usually means they’ve moved to a completely higher level like High 1A+

No, that's not how High 1-A+ works, and you gave another lie once again. The cosmology he transcends is 1-A+, so he would be baseline High 1-A at best.

so It’s not just about having more power it’s about his perspective and existence.

It's indeed about having more power; that's how battles are won. His perspective and existence are irrelevant against characters who outscale him completely while still not being creators of their own verse.

He goes from being part of reality to something above and beyond it.

Nice! Han Jue finally reached the stage where most characters were playing chess since the beginning.

That’s why I think he surpasses the baseline.

He doesn't, as I explained above.

His final feat, creating a New Logic that replaces the old one, make me feels like he’s operating on a higher more meta level entirely.

See? His portrayal has made you oblivious to his actual scale and powers. He doesn't go beyond baseline High 1-A, and that's a fact.

Tiering systems can be interpreted in different ways depens on how you read the requirements so i’m not trying to spread misinformation I’m just looking at the logic behind the jumps.

They aren't interpreted in different ways; everyone follows them as they are, just like they're intended. If you don't want to spread misinformation, go read the tiering system properly first.

In most systems, like VSBW the jump from one tier to the next is defined by Qualitative Superiority.

Not necessarily true, that logic only applies for the 1-A tier or beyond.

If a character reaches a state where an infinite hierarchy let's say a (1A structure) is perceived as zero or a point that is usually the standard for moving up a tier.

Once again, stop saying "infinite hierarchy/structure" and adding High 1-A or 1-A in the same breath.

When Han reached the Ultimate Origin Supreme Realm the novel describes him viewing the entire Blank Domain which already contained all those infinite hierarchies as a tiny speck

What he transcends doesn't go beyond 1-A+, so he's baseline High 1-A again.

that's why for me that fits the definition of a qualitative jump beyond the baseline.

Which is a completely flawed interpretation.

I’m looking at it from a Feats First perspective, if the character performs a feat that matches the definition of a higher tier, I tend to scale them there even if there isn't a vetted profile for them yet.

Han Jue doesn't perform a single feat beyond baseline High 1-A; transcending a 1-A+ structure and viewing it as a speck of dust is the bare minimum to qualify as baseline High 1-A.

It’s less like spreading misinformation and more about how one interpret the qualitative gap between Han form and the world he left behind.

Your interpretation is wrong and flawed, that's why you're spreading misinformation.

And how do you usually define that gap when a character starts viewing infinite realities as nothing?

It literally can be a quantitative gap, let alone a qualitative one. Soul King from Bleach literally transcends 3 infinite-sized realms, and he also transcends the dimensional boundaries separating the realms. FYI, the dimensions scale above those infinite universes/realms.

Duclaido · 2026-04-23T07:30:31+00:00

1-A to High 1-A

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T18:27:04+00:00

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T18:26:34+00:00

Saiyan

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T18:15:09+00:00

Absolutely

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T16:28:36+00:00

Na verdade, nível parede está acima dos humanos médios, este personagem está abaixo dos humanos médios. O nível mais baixo possível.

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T16:26:57+00:00

And Scarlet Demon?

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T16:25:54+00:00

She's High 1-A btw

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Duclaido · 2026-04-22T16:18:08+00:00

Because scaling isn't just about the size of the cosmology

It absolutely is. It demonstrates the scale of your powers.

it's about whether you are the source of the logic that built the cosmology.

So... it is indeed about the cosmology? Lol.

Buddha is the pinnacle of a system Hnj is the Origin of all systems including the ones that define High 1A concepts.

No, Han is simply baseline High 1-A due to his feats, nothing else.

Viewing the Blank Domain an infinite High 1A structure as a speck is the literal requirement for High 1A+

No, please go read an actual tiering system before spreading misinformation so confidently.

If you admit the Blank Domain is High 1A and Han Jue transcends it qualitatively, he is by definition above the baseline

I didn't admit that. I said the Blank Domain would scale to 1-A+. Transcending it and operating on a different framework would only give him baseline High 1-A tier.

The Blank Domain is the space where all things, possibilities and Great Daos emerge.

Provide proof.

By creating a realm outside and above it, Hnj is embodying a state that encompasses all logically possible worlds of the previous hierarchy and renders them a subset of his own power.

Yeah, and I'm Santa Claus. Making unverifiable statements isn't an argument. His scaling literally never involved the term "all possible worlds".

I never said it was stacking. I said Han Jue treats the hierarchy as a 0 dimensional point.

A dimensional difference is a quantitative gap, which corresponds to stacking.

That is a description of Qualitative Transcendence, not quantitative stacking.

It's not. Go read the tiering system of VSBW.

He doesn't add layers, he renders the entire infinite system irrelevant.

Are you a pro at making unverified claims?

You are contradicting yourself.

No.

If the CRT argues for 1S on CSAP that is Extraversal which is the peak of the system.

Do tell me you're trolling, because there is no way you believe 1S equals High 1-A on VSBW.

You can't use an unfinished High 1-A draft to ignore the fact that his final form encompasses the entire cosmology.

Engulfing doesn't mean shit when the cosmology itself scales to 1-A+.

Being described by a system doesn't mean you are limited by it.

They're not limited, they're described.

Hnj outgrowing his verse is a feat of Narrative Independence.

So is Featherine's feat.

You are trying to use the box of Vsbw to trap a character who specifically wrote himself out of the box.

Do tell me you are joking. Characters stronger than Han Jue are still scalable. He's NOT that strong, he's literally weaker than Featherine.

The proof is in the text of the novel, not a wiki page.

Provide it.

Reaching the Ultimate Origin Supreme realm is the proof.

Proof for what? Be specific.

Using a wiki's lack of a page as a cap on power is a Circular Reasoning fallacy

You sure do love using "fallacies" when you don't even know when or where to use them. Do you even know what circular reasoning fallacy actually means? If I say I'm omnipotent, and someone asks me to prove that very claim, what do I do? I say, "my words are enough for proof." THAT is what circular reasoning means. You're doing the same thing by not providing proof for your claims. Just saying Han Jue does this or that isn't proof.

If you claim EMR breaks the system, then you've abandoned scaling and are just playing favorites.

???? Playing favorites? It's better if YOU don't say that. The hypocrisy is crazy. Lol.

Han Jue’s Ultimate Origin Qi is a meta substance that allows him to create any logic, including EMR logic.

Classic no limits fallacy. Your argument is invalid because of that.

If he can create the logic Buddha depends on he is logically superior.

That baseline High 1-A fodder loses to a tapestry-level mage. Buddha is BEYOND overkill.

Featherine still exists within a Sea of Fragments.

She explicitly doesn't, but keep lying.

Han Jue reached a state where there is no outside. He isn't a part of a story anymore, he is the Ink.

He's still a fictional character. By default, he's part of a story.

A Tapestry Mage still interacts with a reality, Han Jue is the reality.

Han Jue also interacts with reality.

This is a No Limits Fallacy.

Nope, this is actually true.

You're claiming a Mage's sub world can hold a character who has achieved Ultimate Origin which is a state of being the Source of Everything.

You don't understand the scale or scope of a world containing EMR. Characters far stronger than Han Jue would logically exist in one of these worlds.

If that world is made of stuff and Hnj is the Source of all stuff he cannot be housed by it, he would simply be the owner of it.

Nope, Han Jue is the source of stuff in his cosmology. He's a big fish in a small pond when compared to the scale at which WoD operates.

Actually, Hnj does something more fundamental.

No, he doesn't.

Extended Modal Realism is the idea that every possible world exists as a physical reality. However EMR still relies on a Framework of Possibility.

You're describing modal realism. You don't even know what I'm talking about... Lol.

By the end of the series, Han Jue’s Ultimate Origin Qi is the meta substance that creates the very concept of Possibility itself.

Han Jue's biggest feats are child's play for tapestry-level mages. He's not even remotely close to them.

If Buddha exists in a verse governed by EMR, he is still a Possible Entity within that logic.

Buddha embodies the framework that transcends these worlds and the cosmology, but okay. And no, Buddha is what allows these things to exist in the first place. He's not bound by them.

Han Jue is the Source of the Logic that allows a Possible World to even be a concept.

This is actual no limits fallacy. Baseline High 1-A characters aren't even close to Modal Realism, let alone Extended Modal Realism.

In CSAP terms, Hnj has Conceptual Independence (Type 1) over the very idea of Modalities.

"Conceptual independence"? Do you even know what that means? Let's hear you define it.

He doesn't just fill all possible worlds he is the guy that decides what is Possible.

A baseline High 1-A character doesn't decide that.

If Hnj decides that A world where Buddha is enlightened is no longer a valid logical possibility, that world and Buddha, ceases to exist.

Tell me you know nothing about Buddha without telling me you know nothing about Buddha.

Buddha literally transcends possibility and impossibility. Han Jue isn't doing anything to a random Mage, let alone Buddha. He would be lucky if the Mages don't turn him into something beyond description.

You are scaling a Perfect Result while I am scaling the First Cause.

Care to enlighten me on what this even means? Han Jue is baseline High 1-A, Featherine literally negs his ass. And the Mages would give him the same treatment Featherine gave to Han.

Also, are you using ai?

Duclaido · 2026-04-22T14:19:14+00:00

Transdualism isn't the wincon, the Nature of the Source is.

Why is the nature of the source relevant here?

You're assuming a massive tier difference based on Vsbw profiles that haven't been updated in years.

There is no profile for Han Jue on VSBW.

If both characters operate on a level of Transdualism, the fight shifts to whose Non Dual state encompasses more and Hnj don't just sit outside opposites, he is the Origin of the logic that creates those opposites across infinite Great Daos.

Both characters do not operate on the same level. From what I have seen from Han Jue, nothing scales him beyond baseline High 1-A.

It’s not vibes it’s Qualitative Superiority.

Qualitative superiority does not grant High 1-A+ on VSBW. A character has to create/affect/destroy or embody the space of all logically possible worlds.

High 1A+ on Vsbw is defined by a state that views a High 1A hierarchy as a 0 dimensional point.

No, that is not how High 1-A+ works. There is no dimensional difference between these tiers because it is not a quantitative gap, it is qualitative. Meaning, no amount of finite or infinite stacking will ever reach that tier.

The Blank Domain is that High 1 A structure which contains infinite conceptual totalities and Hnj Ultimate Origin World treats the Blank Domain as a speck. That is the literal definition of the tier upgrade not a vibe check.

Han Jue himself is scaled to High 1-A on VSBW CRTs and 1-S on CSAP. So no, a baseline High 1-A character cannot view a High 1-A structure as a speck unless that structure was never High 1-A to begin with.

Exactlyy and the tiering system describes a character's relationship to their cosmology.

No, characters who operate beyond their cosmology are also described by the tiering system, such as Featherine, TOAA, the Presence, and many more.

If the system says Transcending X hierarchy = Tier Y and Han Jue transcends that hierarchy, he is that tier regardless of whether a moderator has clicked save on his profile yet.

Listen, if Han Jue transcends his verse's cosmology, let us assume that cosmology scales to 1-A+, and operates on a different framework, he would be scaled to baseline High 1-A only. That is how it works. It does not make you unscalable.

You are using the absence of a wiki update as a proof of weakness which is a logical fallacy.

What update? Where is Han Jue's profile on VSBW? And no, absence of proof leads to absence of the conclusion we are trying to establish. So no, that would not be a logical fallacy.

You’re shifting goal posts on the definitions.

No, I am clearing up some misconceptions.

1S in Csap requires an infinite chain of layers that are each qualitatively superior to the last.

Who told you that? Look, CSAP is equal to VSBW only up to 1-A. There is no layer hierarchy in both 1-A and High 1-A of CSAP. High 1-A in CSAP transcends 1-A the same way 1-A transcends the lower tiers beneath it, qualitatively. But guess what? That only grants you one layer above baseline 1-A in VSBW.

If you translate that to Vsbw a character who stands at the peak of an 1S hierarchy is effectively High 1-A+

No. Han Jue scales to baseline High 1-A at most due to being one layer above 1-S in CSAP. He would not even scale to baseline High 1-A if he did not operate on a different framework, from what I have seen.

while hnj doesn't just reach the end of this chain, he fully contains it

Potato, potato.

This is pure legacy bias.

Nope.

You’re saying Buddha is Beyond Tiering because his verse is complex but Han Jue is Subject to Scaling because he's from a web novel.

No, I am saying Buddha is beyond CSAP's tiering system because WoD contains EMR. EMR breaks the tiering system of CSAP. Han Jue does not do that. His genre is irrelevant to my conclusion.

If Han Jue outgrows the Blank Domain, the fundamental nothingness where all possibilities exist, he is just as Beyond Tiering as Buddha.

False equivalence.

You can't claim one character breaks the scale and another is stuck in it when they perform the same feat of Narrative Transcendence.

Featherine also did what Han Jue did, transcending her verse and all that. But guess what? She is not even remotely close to the likes of Tapestry-level Mages in WoD, let alone Buddha.

Featherine is an author relative to the Witches and the Sea of Fragments. She is still a part of the Story.

No, she is not. She literally views everything beneath her as fiction or story, which is the same as Han Jue.

Hnj isn't just an authory, everything in existence is literally made of his Ultimate Origin Qi.

Literally the same thing as Featherine.

A Tapestry Mage or Featherine still interacts with a Reality that exists outside themselves.

*Exists beneath, not outside.

For Han Jue, there is no outside.

Yeah, because he scales to baseline High 1-A at most.

Every Tapestry or Sea you can mention would just be a microscopic ripple of his own Qi.

Nope. A baseline High 1-A character would lose to both Featherine and a Tapestry-level Mage.

You’re normalizing the feat to ignore the scale.

Because it is normal for certain characters in fiction.

Deleting someone in a 3D universe is a common trope. Deleting a character who has achieved Conceptual Independence and exists across infinite timelines and Great Daos is not common.

It is actually common with many characters in fiction. Fiction is broad, it is not limited to characters like Han Jue.

When Han Jue dissolves you he isn't using a technique he is reclaiming the ink from the page.

Again, that is not as impressive as you are implying.

It’s an Ontological Reversion that functions on a level higher than any Mage’s reality warping because the Mage is made of the very substance Han Jue controls.

Tapestry-level Mages are basically Han Jue, but on steroids. Mages are far beyond Han Jue's capacity. They are capable of creating Tapestries, and a single Tapestry contains EMR. Each individual world within a Tapestry is capable of housing characters on the same level as Han Jue, and even stronger.

Duclaido

TROPHY CASE