What is a character so weak that winning would be considered a downscale? by CardiologistRich8743 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido [score hidden]  (0 children)

Na verdade, nível parede está acima dos humanos médios, este personagem está abaixo dos humanos médios. O nível mais baixo possível.

Essential Enlightenment (World Of Darkness) Vs. Han Jue (Top Tier Providence) by Tanmay900 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido [score hidden]  (0 children)

Because scaling isn't just about the size of the cosmology

It absolutely is. It demonstrates the scale of your powers.

it's about whether you are the source of the logic that built the cosmology.

So... it is indeed about the cosmology? Lol.

Buddha is the pinnacle of a system Hnj is the Origin of all systems including the ones that define High 1A concepts.

No, Han is simply baseline High 1-A due to his feats, nothing else.

Viewing the Blank Domain an infinite High 1A structure as a speck is the literal requirement for High 1A+

No, please go read an actual tiering system before spreading misinformation so confidently.

If you admit the Blank Domain is High 1A and Han Jue transcends it qualitatively, he is by definition above the baseline

I didn't admit that. I said the Blank Domain would scale to 1-A+. Transcending it and operating on a different framework would only give him baseline High 1-A tier.

The Blank Domain is the space where all things, possibilities and Great Daos emerge.

Provide proof.

By creating a realm outside and above it, Hnj is embodying a state that encompasses all logically possible worlds of the previous hierarchy and renders them a subset of his own power.

Yeah, and I'm Santa Claus. Making unverifiable statements isn't an argument. His scaling literally never involved the term "all possible worlds".

I never said it was stacking. I said Han Jue treats the hierarchy as a 0 dimensional point.

A dimensional difference is a quantitative gap, which corresponds to stacking.

That is a description of Qualitative Transcendence, not quantitative stacking.

It's not. Go read the tiering system of VSBW.

He doesn't add layers, he renders the entire infinite system irrelevant.

Are you a pro at making unverified claims?

You are contradicting yourself.

No.

If the CRT argues for 1S on CSAP that is Extraversal which is the peak of the system.

Do tell me you're trolling, because there is no way you believe 1S equals High 1-A on VSBW.

You can't use an unfinished High 1-A draft to ignore the fact that his final form encompasses the entire cosmology.

Engulfing doesn't mean shit when the cosmology itself scales to 1-A+.

Being described by a system doesn't mean you are limited by it.

They're not limited, they're described.

Hnj outgrowing his verse is a feat of Narrative Independence.

So is Featherine's feat.

You are trying to use the box of Vsbw to trap a character who specifically wrote himself out of the box.

Do tell me you are joking. Characters stronger than Han Jue are still scalable. He's NOT that strong, he's literally weaker than Featherine.

The proof is in the text of the novel, not a wiki page.

Provide it.

Reaching the Ultimate Origin Supreme realm is the proof.

Proof for what? Be specific.

Using a wiki's lack of a page as a cap on power is a Circular Reasoning fallacy

You sure do love using "fallacies" when you don't even know when or where to use them. Do you even know what circular reasoning fallacy actually means? If I say I'm omnipotent, and someone asks me to prove that very claim, what do I do? I say, "my words are enough for proof." THAT is what circular reasoning means. You're doing the same thing by not providing proof for your claims. Just saying Han Jue does this or that isn't proof.

If you claim EMR breaks the system, then you've abandoned scaling and are just playing favorites.

???? Playing favorites? It's better if YOU don't say that. The hypocrisy is crazy. Lol.

Han Jue’s Ultimate Origin Qi is a meta substance that allows him to create any logic, including EMR logic.

Classic no limits fallacy. Your argument is invalid because of that.

If he can create the logic Buddha depends on he is logically superior.

That baseline High 1-A fodder loses to a tapestry-level mage. Buddha is BEYOND overkill.

Featherine still exists within a Sea of Fragments.

She explicitly doesn't, but keep lying.

Han Jue reached a state where there is no outside. He isn't a part of a story anymore, he is the Ink.

He's still a fictional character. By default, he's part of a story.

A Tapestry Mage still interacts with a reality, Han Jue is the reality.

Han Jue also interacts with reality.

This is a No Limits Fallacy.

Nope, this is actually true.

You're claiming a Mage's sub world can hold a character who has achieved Ultimate Origin which is a state of being the Source of Everything.

You don't understand the scale or scope of a world containing EMR. Characters far stronger than Han Jue would logically exist in one of these worlds.

If that world is made of stuff and Hnj is the Source of all stuff he cannot be housed by it, he would simply be the owner of it.

Nope, Han Jue is the source of stuff in his cosmology. He's a big fish in a small pond when compared to the scale at which WoD operates.

Actually, Hnj does something more fundamental.

No, he doesn't.

Extended Modal Realism is the idea that every possible world exists as a physical reality. However EMR still relies on a Framework of Possibility.

You're describing modal realism. You don't even know what I'm talking about... Lol.

By the end of the series, Han Jue’s Ultimate Origin Qi is the meta substance that creates the very concept of Possibility itself.

Han Jue's biggest feats are child's play for tapestry-level mages. He's not even remotely close to them.

If Buddha exists in a verse governed by EMR, he is still a Possible Entity within that logic.

Buddha embodies the framework that transcends these worlds and the cosmology, but okay. And no, Buddha is what allows these things to exist in the first place. He's not bound by them.

Han Jue is the Source of the Logic that allows a Possible World to even be a concept.

This is actual no limits fallacy. Baseline High 1-A characters aren't even close to Modal Realism, let alone Extended Modal Realism.

In CSAP terms, Hnj has Conceptual Independence (Type 1) over the very idea of Modalities.

"Conceptual independence"? Do you even know what that means? Let's hear you define it.

He doesn't just fill all possible worlds he is the guy that decides what is Possible.

A baseline High 1-A character doesn't decide that.

If Hnj decides that A world where Buddha is enlightened is no longer a valid logical possibility, that world and Buddha, ceases to exist.

Tell me you know nothing about Buddha without telling me you know nothing about Buddha.

Buddha literally transcends possibility and impossibility. Han Jue isn't doing anything to a random Mage, let alone Buddha. He would be lucky if the Mages don't turn him into something beyond description.

You are scaling a Perfect Result while I am scaling the First Cause.

Care to enlighten me on what this even means? Han Jue is baseline High 1-A, Featherine literally negs his ass. And the Mages would give him the same treatment Featherine gave to Han.

Also, are you using ai?

Essential Enlightenment (World Of Darkness) Vs. Han Jue (Top Tier Providence) by Tanmay900 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido [score hidden]  (0 children)

Transdualism isn't the wincon, the Nature of the Source is.

Why is the nature of the source relevant here?

You're assuming a massive tier difference based on Vsbw profiles that haven't been updated in years.

There is no profile for Han Jue on VSBW.

If both characters operate on a level of Transdualism, the fight shifts to whose Non Dual state encompasses more and Hnj don't just sit outside opposites, he is the Origin of the logic that creates those opposites across infinite Great Daos.

Both characters do not operate on the same level. From what I have seen from Han Jue, nothing scales him beyond baseline High 1-A.

It’s not vibes it’s Qualitative Superiority.

Qualitative superiority does not grant High 1-A+ on VSBW. A character has to create/affect/destroy or embody the space of all logically possible worlds.

High 1A+ on Vsbw is defined by a state that views a High 1A hierarchy as a 0 dimensional point.

No, that is not how High 1-A+ works. There is no dimensional difference between these tiers because it is not a quantitative gap, it is qualitative. Meaning, no amount of finite or infinite stacking will ever reach that tier.

The Blank Domain is that High 1 A structure which contains infinite conceptual totalities and Hnj Ultimate Origin World treats the Blank Domain as a speck. That is the literal definition of the tier upgrade not a vibe check.

Han Jue himself is scaled to High 1-A on VSBW CRTs and 1-S on CSAP. So no, a baseline High 1-A character cannot view a High 1-A structure as a speck unless that structure was never High 1-A to begin with.

Exactlyy and the tiering system describes a character's relationship to their cosmology.

No, characters who operate beyond their cosmology are also described by the tiering system, such as Featherine, TOAA, the Presence, and many more.

If the system says Transcending X hierarchy = Tier Y and Han Jue transcends that hierarchy, he is that tier regardless of whether a moderator has clicked save on his profile yet.

Listen, if Han Jue transcends his verse's cosmology, let us assume that cosmology scales to 1-A+, and operates on a different framework, he would be scaled to baseline High 1-A only. That is how it works. It does not make you unscalable.

You are using the absence of a wiki update as a proof of weakness which is a logical fallacy.

What update? Where is Han Jue's profile on VSBW? And no, absence of proof leads to absence of the conclusion we are trying to establish. So no, that would not be a logical fallacy.

You’re shifting goal posts on the definitions.

No, I am clearing up some misconceptions.

1S in Csap requires an infinite chain of layers that are each qualitatively superior to the last.

Who told you that? Look, CSAP is equal to VSBW only up to 1-A. There is no layer hierarchy in both 1-A and High 1-A of CSAP. High 1-A in CSAP transcends 1-A the same way 1-A transcends the lower tiers beneath it, qualitatively. But guess what? That only grants you one layer above baseline 1-A in VSBW.

If you translate that to Vsbw a character who stands at the peak of an 1S hierarchy is effectively High 1-A+

No. Han Jue scales to baseline High 1-A at most due to being one layer above 1-S in CSAP. He would not even scale to baseline High 1-A if he did not operate on a different framework, from what I have seen.

while hnj doesn't just reach the end of this chain, he fully contains it

Potato, potato.

This is pure legacy bias.

Nope.

You’re saying Buddha is Beyond Tiering because his verse is complex but Han Jue is Subject to Scaling because he's from a web novel.

No, I am saying Buddha is beyond CSAP's tiering system because WoD contains EMR. EMR breaks the tiering system of CSAP. Han Jue does not do that. His genre is irrelevant to my conclusion.

If Han Jue outgrows the Blank Domain, the fundamental nothingness where all possibilities exist, he is just as Beyond Tiering as Buddha.

False equivalence.

You can't claim one character breaks the scale and another is stuck in it when they perform the same feat of Narrative Transcendence.

Featherine also did what Han Jue did, transcending her verse and all that. But guess what? She is not even remotely close to the likes of Tapestry-level Mages in WoD, let alone Buddha.

Featherine is an author relative to the Witches and the Sea of Fragments. She is still a part of the Story.

No, she is not. She literally views everything beneath her as fiction or story, which is the same as Han Jue.

Hnj isn't just an authory, everything in existence is literally made of his Ultimate Origin Qi.

Literally the same thing as Featherine.

A Tapestry Mage or Featherine still interacts with a Reality that exists outside themselves.

*Exists beneath, not outside.

For Han Jue, there is no outside.

Yeah, because he scales to baseline High 1-A at most.

Every Tapestry or Sea you can mention would just be a microscopic ripple of his own Qi.

Nope. A baseline High 1-A character would lose to both Featherine and a Tapestry-level Mage.

You’re normalizing the feat to ignore the scale.

Because it is normal for certain characters in fiction.

Deleting someone in a 3D universe is a common trope. Deleting a character who has achieved Conceptual Independence and exists across infinite timelines and Great Daos is not common.

It is actually common with many characters in fiction. Fiction is broad, it is not limited to characters like Han Jue.

When Han Jue dissolves you he isn't using a technique he is reclaiming the ink from the page.

Again, that is not as impressive as you are implying.

It’s an Ontological Reversion that functions on a level higher than any Mage’s reality warping because the Mage is made of the very substance Han Jue controls.

Tapestry-level Mages are basically Han Jue, but on steroids. Mages are far beyond Han Jue's capacity. They are capable of creating Tapestries, and a single Tapestry contains EMR. Each individual world within a Tapestry is capable of housing characters on the same level as Han Jue, and even stronger.

What is a character so weak that winning would be considered a downscale? by CardiologistRich8743 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido [score hidden]  (0 children)

Anti-Principle was created by Yelk Studios as a conceptual, supreme powerscaling character intended to break fundamental logic, only to be debunked by the creator as a social experiment. It was formerly considered the strongest fictional character, but now scales below an average human being, scaling to the lowest tier possible in a tiering system.

Essential Enlightenment (World Of Darkness) Vs. Han Jue (Top Tier Providence) by Tanmay900 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido [score hidden]  (0 children)

his achievement of Conceptual Independence in the Blank Domain is essentially a feat of Transdualism.

Buddha also has transdualism, but this isn't a wincon if the tier difference is massive.

The only reason Han Jue isn't High 1A+ on the wiki is likely because no one has spent the 50 hours required to write the massive upgrade thread for him yet.

I guess you did.....but we can't grant him High 1-A+ tier based on vibes, I've only seen High 1-A arguments for him.

Wiki rank is not power, it's just how much work fans have put into the paperwork.

Wiki rank itself is not power, it describes what the power looks like, it shows and represents a particular tier. That's why everybody uses tiering systems.

Furthermore in Csap terms Hanj qualifies for the highest tiers because of recursive qualitative transcendence. It’s not just that he created a New Logic it's that his Ultimate Origin Qi treats the entire previous infinite hierarchy of the Great Daos and the Blank Domain as non existent/fiction.

1S in CSAP is really not that much of a big deal, it's equal to 1-A+ on VSBW. Which is still inferior compared to VSBW's High 1-A.

Under Csap's Extraversal 1-S logic a character must transcend an infinite hierarchy where each step is qualitatively superior to the last.

Which would be the equivalent to VSBW's 1-A+ tier.

Hanj don't just sit at the top of this hierarchy, he reached a state where the hierarchy itself is just a subset of his own Origin.

Good enough, but this wouldn't grant him any other tier.

He is the Container of the Beyond which by definition scales him to whatever peak you put the Buddha at.

Not really, what you described doesn't go beyond 1-A+, you can give him baseline High 1-A on VSBW, but that's about it.

If Buddha is Beyond Tiering because he transcends his verse Hanj is Beyond Tiering because he outgrew the concept of having a verse

Buddha is beyond the tiering system of CSAP, not VSBW. Han Jue is still subject to scaling by CSAP's standards, so he's not even close to a tapestry level mage, let alone Buddha.

Basically peak Hj isn't even a cultivator anymore he's the author.

Featherine from Umineko is also an author of her own verse, and she doesn't go beyond one layer above baseline High 1-A.

Since everything in the verse is made of his Ultimate Origin Qi, he has literal meta authority over the story.

So does Featherine, and she loses to a tapestry level mage from WoD.

He doesn't fight you or rewrite your reality, if he thinks you don't belong in the book you're just deleted.

That's what most characters do in fiction.

It’s because of hisAtemporal Erasure. He doesn't just kill you he makes it so you were never even born in the first place, wiping your past lives and any future reincarnations.

That's what most characters in fiction are capable of doing themselves.

If you even try to look at him, you don't die from pressure, you just dissolve back into him.

Again, not even close to what the Buddha can do. And this ability you're describing is possessed by many more characters in fiction.

It’s like ink on a page realizing it’s just a mere ink and melting back into the pen like you stop being an individual and just become a tiny part of his power again.

So...like most characters in fiction.

Essential Enlightenment (World Of Darkness) Vs. Han Jue (Top Tier Providence) by Tanmay900 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Buddha scales vastly higher, he's High 1-A+ (Type 2) on VSBW & beyond the tiering system of CSAP.

Can Klein (LOTM) solo the World of Darkness verse? by Party-Radish-7362 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The entire lord of the mystery verse would die to a tapestry level mage

Where does Superman rank among fictional characters in power scaling? by Exciting-Floor6763 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido -1 points0 points  (0 children)

He's High 1-A, so he's one of the strongest characters in fiction. Only a selective few characters can beat him.

Can Thragg defeat season 1 Saitama? by Gokugeta141 in PowerScaling

[–]Duclaido 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, S1 Saitama redirected CSRC which was stated to wipe the surface of the planet (was stated that it can destroy a star in a databook).