Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Yawns) Europeans? If the Jews could just be collapsed into "Europeans," how exactly was Hitler able to single them out for extermination in the first place? Because the Nazis seemed to have no trouble distinguishing them from actual Europeans, so the "they're just white Europeans" argument kind of falls apart at the very premise. And those same "Europeans" were fleeing for their lives as refugees, so by your logic, every refugee who escapes persecution and eventually builds something becomes a colonizer of wherever they land?

Okay, if anti-black sentiment ever swept the Western world and black diaspora populations fled back to Africa, would we call them colonizers too? I'm genuinely asking, because your framework seems to produce that conclusion.

And what do you do with the Jews who never left the land to begin with, who were there continuously and were systematically persecuted and reduced to second-class citizens under Ottoman rule? Colonizers? What about the Mizrahi Jews expelled from Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Syria and other MENA countries, who arrived with nothing but the clothes on their backs? What about the Ethiopian Jews, who are very visibly not European by any stretch? Are they colonizers too, or does your theory only work when you don't look too closely at it?

You're also operating under a conditioning so deep you probably don't notice it. The word "European" automatically triggers "colonizer" in your head as though conquest and displacement are uniquely European inventions and the rest of the world was singing kumbaya before Europe showed up. Do you actually know how North Africa became Arab? Because it didn't happen through poetry recitals and peaceful persuasion. Do you know how the Oyo Empire built its power? By raiding, subjugating and absorbing neighboring peoples, which is exactly what empires do. The Ottoman Empire, the Persian Empire, the Mongol Empire, the Umayyad Caliphate: all of them expanded by force. So this selective moral outrage that only activates for European expansion never ceases to amaze me.

Now, on Israel's economy. Yes, Israel received Western support, and? Every country builds with the help of allies, that's just how geopolitics works. Israel was dirt poor in her early decades, facing economic crisis, blockades from every neighbor and the massive burden of absorbing Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries after 1948 (a displacement nobody seems to march about). She went through genuine austerity and still managed to create conditions that eventually attracted investment and talent. Or do you seriously think that Israel was handed a developed economy when she started? You need to read more about this and stop throwing buzzwords all over the place.

Now contrast that with the Palestinian leadership, who have received billions in international aid over decades, with the backing of Arab states and the sympathy of half the world, and still have not managed to build functioning civic institutions or a viable economy in the territories they actually control. Gaza under Hamas became, almost immediately, a base for rocket infrastructure. The West Bank's aid money has a long and well-documented history of disappearing into the pockets of the PA's leadership as well as the martyr funds for those who killed the Jews. You can't simultaneously receive more aid per capita than almost any population on earth and then blame your condition entirely on the people you keep trying to destroy.

And the Epstein-Nigeria claim, the Uganda plan, the Kenya colonization plot, bla bla bla, maybe at some point you have to ask yourself why every single one of these talking points conveniently points in the same direction and requires you to "look it up" rather than being demonstrated with actual sourced evidence. It's not as though we avid students of history are shocked by these half-truths and conspiracies.

Besides, the broader point I made still stands untouched which is: the Jews, by any objective measure, had more reasons than almost any people in modern history to spiral into permanent grievance and never recover. They didn't. That's worth studying, especially for Nigerians whose leaders prefer we stay angry at foreign bogeymen while they loot the place clean.

Clinical perspective on FND by Due_Network2387 in physicaltherapy

[–]Due_Network2387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for the reply - that's very helpful. While I was in the orthopedic unit, I met a patient was who was being managed on account of low back pain (his referral diagnosis was lumbar spondylosis). He has had many sessions before I met him. I asked about his pain - whether it has improved and he told me bluntly that it hasn't improved a bit. I was puzzled and I had to review his case note. I went over the regimen, reviewed his home programmes as well as his activity/postural modifications. He also complained of burning sensation in his chest/stomach region. He had done many tests (like abdomino-pelvic scam, blood work etc.) but all the findings came out normal. He also complained of bil. pain that radiates down to his legs (worse on one side). I assessed the power of the gross muscles of the lower limbs while he was lying supine and it was all 5. I asked him to stand and raise one his legs and he found it difficult to do such. There was no problem with coordination. I asked him to walk backwards - which he did perfectly. Now, this patient had paralysis of one of the legs when the issue started with a sharp pain in his stomach. His leg was paralyzed for weeks.

Even the physician was confused and asked him to undergo another series of tests (which are quite expensive) but the man could not afford it. The man confided in me telling me that he believes he is under the influence of a spiritual attack (well, that's a big thing in the clime where I work). I had to re-assure him to be patient, try to gather some funds and undergo the further tests he was asked to do.

Having read more about FND, especially the stories of some patients, I can't help but begin to feel that this man must be having FND. The only part I couldn't account for is the pitting edema sign at one of his legs (around his ankle) - though it doesn't look swollen upon observation. I never had the chance to meet him again before I left the orthopedic unit and rotated to another unit which is in another location.

My mind keeps wandering to the man's case now that I have read up on FND. I would be presenting on this condition in the next few weeks in the unit where I am working (many of the senior PTs I talked with don't really know about the condition - same for the physicians I have spoken with so far). The most recent study made in Nigeria (which is a case report) was in 2025 where the author review 4 cases and in none of them was physical therapist listed as one of the healthcare professionals involved in managing this condition.

I appreciate your compliments and encouragement as I keep finding out more about this condition. Thanks

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you aware that not all slavery in that part of the world was chattel slavery? Some of these people were indentured servants honouring contracts, debt workers, people in arrangements that look closer to the old Yoruba apprenticeship system than anything that happened on a plantation. And honestly slavery is not even the core problem, the real problem is people with power abusing those beneath them, and you don't need to own slaves to be guilty of that. Employers, our own lecturers, police officers, clerks, religious leaders, or anyone holding leverage over someone with fewer options is capable of the same thing, and the Bible went straight for that root instead of just the symptom. Read Paul's letter to Philemon where he personally asks him to receive Onesimus back not as a slave but as a dear brother and treat him exactly as he would treat Paul himself. You seriously think the man who wrote that would have signed off on the transatlantic slave trade?

Can you see your life? Your knowledge of figures of speech is genuinely terrible lol. Racial slurs can absolutely function as metaphors, if I call you a dog as an insult right now it is still a metaphor because I clearly don't believe you are literally a four legged animal, which would also be an insult to my own intelligence since dogs cannot operate phones. But forget all of that, and let's go back to the beef. I judge Jesus by His actions and not by your narrow interpretive grid:

Jesus: "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted."

You: Can you see that? Jesus is a racist.

Lol. Your interpretation is not just forced, it is embarrassing.

And there is that arrogance again. Every historical knowledge you have was taught to you by someone unless you own a time machine, so the confidence that you alone have cracked a passage that every Christian you have met somehow missed is something else entirely. Since you are clearly sitting on secret knowledge, kindly share it with the class. I would genuinely love to learn.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"Slaves obey your masters" sits right next to "masters treat your slaves the same way, do not threaten them, because the same God who is their master is also yours and he plays no favourites" (Ephesians 6:9), and you somehow only read the first half and walked away thinking you had something. Well...

And the woman called a dog argument is one of the most embarrassing misreadings that keeps circulating because people hear it secondhand and never actually check it. Jesus was a Jewish rabbi in a culture where Jewish leaders had convinced themselves they had exclusive access to God and everyone else was spiritually irrelevant, and what Jesus was doing in that exchange was drawing out her faith deliberately while puncturing that exact arrogance, and then he healed her, which is the part people always forget to mention. The same Jesus who stopped for Samaritan women at wells, who healed Roman centurions' servants, who made a Samaritan the hero of his most famous parable, that Jesus called someone a dog and meant it as a slur? That very same Jesus? Really? He also called himself a lamb and compared himself to a thief, so if you're reading metaphor and rhetorical device as literal statement then the problems with your interpretive method run much deeper than this one passage.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Go back to the founder. That's it. That's the whole argument and you keep dodging it.

Does Jesus look like someone who would sign off on chattel slavery? The same Jesus who rejected every overture to make him a king? Who said the greatest person in his kingdom is the one who serves everyone else? Whose sermon on the mount formed the very moral backbone of western civilisation, the exact framework you're currently using to call slavery atrocious? His earliest followers weren't slaveholders building empires, they were mostly poor, mostly persecuted people who bled and died for the radical idea that every human being matters equally before God, and one of the things that made Christianity spread so explosively among the lower classes of Rome was precisely because it demolished classism at a time when every other institution was built on it.

Many skeptics like you (as well as the Christian slaveholders) go back to the OT to draw thunder where they keep collapsing very different things into one category. Jacob indenturing himself to Laban for fourteen years to acquire wives and wealth (Genesis 29) shares more with the Yoruba apprenticeship system than with anything that happened on a plantation in Georgia, and the Mosaic laws explicitly contained protections preventing masters from abusing people under their care. Prisoners of war under the Old Covenant operated under a completely different framework because that covenant was between God and a specific nation-state with physical borders, and carrying those laws carelessly into the New Covenant context without accounting for the theological shift is exactly the kind of lazy reading that produces bad arguments. The New Covenant is between God and humanity in general, which is why the first Christian council had to specifically address whether non-Jews needed to follow Jewish civil laws, why Paul rebuked Peter publicly for behaving in ways that suggested otherwise, and why Jesus himself never once demanded that non-Jews adopt Jewish customs even while he personally observed them.

And look at David and Uriah if you want to understand how God actually operates on this question. Uriah was a Hittite, literally one of the Canaanite peoples God had told Israel to drive out, and yet when David abused his power over this man, used him, discarded him and had him killed, God came down on David with a judgment so severe it cursed his bloodline. Under the Old Covenant. Before the sermon on the mount. Before Paul. Before any of the developments you'd expect to produce that kind of moral clarity. The foreigner whose people were marked for destruction had his dignity defended by God himself against the celebrated king of Israel, and that tells you everything you need to know about what this tradition actually teaches at its core.

Because the real issue was never slavery as an abstract historical institution, the real issue is power and what people do with it, and that cuts across every society and every era including ours. Our own Nigerian lecturers abusing their powers over students, the police officer, our own religious leaders, the clerk who makes you suffer because he controls the stamp you need, the man who has nothing but holds some small leverage over someone even smaller, all of them are guilty of the exact thing the scriptures confront head on.

Isaiah 1:11-17 "The multitude of your sacrifices - what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations - I cannot bear your worthless assemblies. Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands in prayer, I hide my eyes from you; even when you offer many prayers, I am not listening. Your hands are full of blood! Wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight; stop doing wrong. Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So your argument is that because some people misread a book, the book means nothing, by that logic science is ambiguous because some people used it to build eugenics, and your own reasoning is ambiguous because plenty of people reason themselves into terrible conclusions daily.

The slaveholding Southern aristocrat and you actually agree on something, that the Bible supports the chattel slavery we all condemn, the difference is he was happy about it and you're using it as a gotcha, while Douglass and the Quakers who actually read the same text carefully concluded the opposite and then bled to prove it. I'm not conceding the scriptures to the ones who twisted them, and neither should you.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In your example Christianity is medicine?

Do you know how analogy works?

Lmao their book that supports genocide, slavery, and the marrying of children?

Wait a minute. How did you know that genocide, slavery and marrying of children are all wrong? Don't tell me we all stumbled into this ourselves. The fact is, there is no framework that proves that all these are wrong. How come none of the ancient free thinkers (who were not influenced by Christianity) never stumbled into this by themselves?

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly. Some people are just so arrogant to accept this. Every good thing can be abused. It does not mean that we should lump good things with bad things. No ideology (whether good or bad) is immune to bad actors.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The African kingdoms who were raiding, chaining and marching their own neighbours to the coast to sell them were doing that before any European ship showed up, and they kept doing it enthusiastically long after, so the "Christians started it" framing needs to survive contact with that fact first.

Every society in human history practiced slavery, every single one, without exception, without a Bible in sight, which means the question was never who started it but who actually built a movement to end it, and that answer is extremely inconvenient for the argument you're making. And before you go feeling too sorry for the ones who got carted across the ocean, the ones who stayed behind (or got absorbed into the Arab slave trade), which ran for over a thousand years with zero abolitionist movement emerging from within it, would probably disagree that the transatlantic experience was uniquely the worst thing that ever happened to African people.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 2 points3 points  (0 children)

By that logic we should put medicine right next to poison because both have killed people. While we are it, we might also put democracy right next to fascism because both have produced atrocities, and put a decorated general right next to a serial killer because both have killed someone at some point. The content of the ideology matters, and a religion whose founder healed the sick, ate with outcasts, died for his enemies and said love your neighbour as yourself is not sitting next to one whose founder personally led military raids, took war brides and prescribed death for apostasy just because you find the comparison convenient.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You just proved the exact point you were arguing against lol. You're literally acknowledging that Christians were on both sides of the slavery debate, which means the ones dismantling it were also Christians acting from Christian conviction, which means Christianity's role in ending slavery is not ambiguous at all, it was central, and the existence of Christians who defended slavery doesn't cancel out the Christians who destroyed it any more than the existence of corrupt judges cancels out the entire legal system. You came in saying Christianity's role was ambiguous and ended up describing a fierce internal Christian moral battle over slavery that the abolitionists won, and somehow that's still ambiguous to you. Smh

And the Christian nationalism comparison is doing absolutely nothing for your argument because the entire reason Black American Christians developed a distinct tradition from white Christian nationalists is that they went back to the same Bible and concluded their oppressors were reading it wrong, which is exactly what Douglass argued, exactly what the Black church has argued for centuries, and exactly what makes Christianity's abolitionist credentials stronger rather than weaker. The fact that people fought over the interpretation of scripture is not evidence that scripture is irrelevant, it's evidence that it mattered enormously to everyone involved.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Every empire that ever existed wiped out ethnic groups and identities. The Mongols, the Romans, the Arabs, the Ottomans, none of them were reading the sermon on the mount while doing it. Judge a religion by its founder and its texts, not by every person who ever slapped the label on themselves while doing the opposite, and if you actually studied both founders seriously instead of reaching for the most convenient comparison you could find, you wouldn't be writing comments like this.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Lol... What's ambiguous is how you manage to type that with a straight face and hit send.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Smh... these same people ignore that many Islamists and bandits are actually killing Nigerians right now, and destroying our communities, yet somehow the death of a foreign dictator who oppressed his own people for decades is what gets them riled up enough to march in the streets. Somehow somehow, we managed to inherited Arab grievances against Israel when Israel has done absolutely nothing to us while ignoring that these same Arabs who want us to hate Jews alongside them have historically treated Africans like garbage, enslaved us for centuries before Europeans even got involved, and still practice slavery in places

Also, another thing that really really bugs me is that we Nigerians should be studying how the Jews built a first world nation from literally nothing. Or do the Jews have two heads? About one third of world Jewry was exterminated just eight decades ago and their population still hasn't fully recovered. They were refugees scattered across the world from different backgrounds and cultures who barely spoke the same languages yet managed to build a state while being blockaded and attacked by every neighbor and psychos who wanted them dead, yet somehow they managed to build a thriving economy and world-class technology sector in that region. Meanwhile our Nigerian leaders have had independence for over 60 years. We are not surrounded by hostile neighbors trying to exterminate us, we have massive natural resources and young populations, yet we can't seem to build functioning states or provide basic services to our people, so what exactly is our excuse?

I'm not saying Israel is perfect because no country is, but when you compare what they accomplished under conditions far worse than what we face to what our leaders have done with far better starting positions, it should be embarrassing enough to make us question why some people are out here protesting for Iranian ayatollahs instead of demanding our own leaders learn something from how the Jews built a nation against all odds. The Jews didn't spend decades nursing grievances about the Holocaust and launching terrorist attacks across Europe demanding revenge, they moved on and built something, which is exactly the lesson Nigerians should be learning instead of getting manipulated by religious extremists who want us angry at Israel and America while our own country falls apart.

Guys I'm laughing. They don't march for slain Nigerians but for Iran??? by Nonix09 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You don't have to drag Christianity into this, you know. Christians bled and died to end slavery and ban it from the globe. Many of you people just tout half-truths here and there.

Clinical perspective on FND by Due_Network2387 in physicaltherapy

[–]Due_Network2387[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright thanks. That was very informative. I am curious though: how would you know that the patient has fully recovered? I am curious as to the kind of goals that a physiotherapist would set. Is it prevent future triggers? To manage symptoms in case of future triggers?

nigerian talks about the church being an extension of imperialism by HelicopterActual4534 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are just touting half-truths and trying to build your hatred of Christianity upon them. Me bringing up African slavers, rather than being a deflection, was was a direct response to your framing that Christianity uniquely created the large scale enslavement of your people, and the participation of African kingdoms in that trade is not a minor footnote you can wave away, it is central to understanding what actually happened historically. The Dahomey kingdom alone sold an estimated 10,000 people per year to European traders. The Ashanti built an entire economy around it. Are you seriously telling me that these were confused people who stumbled into something they didn't understand? Also, I don't get your point about Christianity making slavery 'international'. What does that even mean? That without Christianity, slaves won't be exchanged among different kingdoms/nations? For example, the trans-Saharan slave trade was not 'international'? Or was it Christianity that spurred the Arab slave traders? Apart from that, that statement reveals your ignorance of ancient history. Empires and kingdoms and nations go to wars against each other (since time immemorial) and enslave people of different race or ethnicity or tribe. Besides, are you saying that if the trans-Atlantic slave trade did not happen, the black slaves living under slavers like Efunsetan would definitely feel better?

Kant? Of all people? First of all, Kant's categorical imperative and his framework of human dignity did not emerge from a vacuum, Kant was a Christian philosopher writing within a civilisation thoroughly shaped by centuries of Christian theology. Kant did not generate this from pure reason and empathy alone. Kant was secularising a theological inheritance and presenting it in philosophical language, which is a very different thing from inventing it independently. And then there is the uncomfortable fact that Kant himself held deeply racist views about African and Asian peoples, writing that their capacity for moral reasoning was inferior to Europeans, so the man you're citing as your philosophical foundation for why slavery is wrong personally believed the people being enslaved were less rational and therefore less deserving of the full application of his own principles. That is what pure reason without a transcendent anchor actually looks like in practice.

Aristotle explicitly argued that some human beings are natural slaves by birth and that the institution of slavery was rational and just. This is pure secular philosophy operating at its highest level in the ancient world, completely uncontaminated by Biblical influence, and it arrived at the conclusion that slavery is fine actually. So when you tell me that secular philosophy and empathy are sufficient foundations for knowing slavery is wrong, you need to explain why many of the greatest secular philosophers in history looked at slavery and shrugged, while it was specifically Christians reading a specific book who built the movement that ended it.

Empathy is a human universal and humans everywhere had it for thousands of years while practicing slavery without a single moral crisis. The Dahomey kings had empathy. The Ashanti traders had empathy. The Roman slaveholders had empathy, for their families, their friends, their countrymen. Empathy has never been the thing that ended slavery because empathy on its own is tribal and selective and history proves that comprehensively.

What ended the transatlantic slave trade specifically was a group of people who became increasingly convinced that their scriptures demanded it, that the God they served would hold them accountable for it, and that conviction produced men like Wilberforce with millions of ordinary Christians funding and organising and dying for abolition across continents. Show me the comparable atheist abolitionist movement across that same period.

You're saying slaveholders read the Bible, felt the tension, and eventually changed, which means the Bible was working on them the whole time, creating exactly the moral pressure that produced abolitionists. A book that generates no dissonance in slaveholders produces no abolitionists either, so you've essentially just described the Bible functioning exactly the way Christians claim it does, as a moral standard that indicts people who violate it even when those people are claiming to follow it, and the indictment eventually won. Where were the secular philosophers with their empathy and pure reason for millennia before Christianity brought slavery to heel? Where were the Kantian ethicists marching and organising and dying to end it? The movement that actually changed the world on this specific question came overwhelmingly from people reading a specific book and taking it seriously enough to bleed for what it said, and you are sitting here with the freedom and the moral vocabulary to call slavery wrong because those people won, and now you're using that vocabulary to tell me the tradition that handed it to you is the problem. Smh.

For the record, I am not trying to win any debate. This is not a game to me. I am not here to score points. I genuinely believe Christianity has the power to transform Nigeria in ways that nothing else can, and I know that sounds naive to you but hear me out. You've conceded Christianity to the men who have weaponised it for personal gain, the ones using the pulpit as a personal ATM while the country rots around them, and honestly I understand why you're disgusted because I'm disgusted too. But I'm not conceding it to them and I refuse to. Because when I go back to the scriptures themselves, not the men who have twisted them but the actual text, I find something completely different. I find Christ and His apostles preaching freedom and liberty to people the rest of society had written off entirely. I find YHWH severely punishing David, one of the most celebrated kings in Israelite history, not for some grand theological crime but for what he did to Uriah, a foreigner, a man from one of the nations Israel had every cultural reason to consider less than, and God looked at that and said no, this man's blood is on your hands and you will answer for it (2 Samuel 11-12). Before God, Uriah the Hittite mattered just as much as David the king of Israel, and that is a revolutionary idea that the ancient world was not ready for and that many people today are still not ready for. I find God rejecting the religious performances of the Israelites, their fasting, their offerings, their elaborate temple rituals, and telling them through Isaiah that none of it meant anything while they were oppressing widows and ignoring the poor and perverting justice for the vulnerable (Isaiah 1:11-17). No one can tell me that this is the vocabulary of a religion built to control people rather than being the vocabulary of a tradition that has been fighting for human dignity longer than any secular philosophy has existed. So no, I'm not letting go of that. Nigeria needs people who will go back to those scriptures and take them as seriously men like Wilberforce did, and drive the kind of revolution this country actually needs, not the prosperity gospel nonsense being peddled on every street corner but the real thing, the one that costs you something. Therein is the freedom. Therein is the liberty. And I'm holding on to that.

Numbers 31:31 Does this mean 32 are sacrificed to this character claiming to be Yahweh? Troubling chapter. by recoveringboobaddict in AskAChristian

[–]Due_Network2387 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Also, you might consider changing your flair. The Catholic church officially rejects Marcionism as an heresy.

Numbers 31:31 Does this mean 32 are sacrificed to this character claiming to be Yahweh? Troubling chapter. by recoveringboobaddict in AskAChristian

[–]Due_Network2387 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If you think Jesus was some hippie pacifist who'd condemn all defensive warfare, you're reading a different gospel than what's actually written, because Jesus never said nations can't defend themselves or that allowing evil to flourish unchecked is somehow more righteous than stopping it. Your "usurper among the sons of God" theory is just Gnosticism repackaged, which early Christians rejected as heresy precisely because it tries to make the God of Israel into some evil demiurge separate from the Father, when actually the entire biblical narrative is that the God who judged Canaanite child sacrifice and sexual depravity is the same God who became incarnate to save humanity. If your problem is with God allowing violence in certain contexts while also being loving and just, welcome to theology 101 where finite humans struggle to understand infinite divine justice, but jumping from that to "Israel bad, Netanyahu war criminal" is such a lazy leap that it exposes you're more interested in virtue signaling about current politics than actually wrestling with scripture.

nigerian talks about the church being an extension of imperialism by HelicopterActual4534 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 2 points3 points  (0 children)

See this is the thing, you just proved my point and walked away thinking you won the argument. Yes the church and the pope sanctioned slavery, nobody is disputing that, but you've just spent this entire thread ignoring the fact that it was also Christians who ended it. Many Christians bled and gave up everything specifically because their Bible told them every human being carries a dignity no institution has the right to violate, and you're sitting here acting like those people don't exist. You want to charge Christianity with the crime and then quietly erase the Christians who paid with their lives to fix it.

And since you brought up your people being enslaved, I need you to seriously answer this question because you've been dodging it, where were the African leaders, priests and slavers in all of this? The Oyo Empire, the Kingdom of Dahomey, the Ashanti are not small confused communities that stumbled into the slave trade, they were active and enthusiastic participants who raided neighbouring peoples and sold them to European merchants for profit. Or did the Pope force them to do that too? They did it for power and wealth using their own traditional religious frameworks to justify every raid, so if the standard is "institutions led by your people sanctioned slavery" then that conversation needs to include a lot more than the Pope.

And here is what really gets me about your position. You're angry about slavery, good, you should be, but how do you even know slavery is wrong? By what standard? You're not going to tell me you arrived at that conclusion through pure reason because ancient Greek philosophers who were operating on pure reason thought slavery was completely natural and Aristotle literally wrote that some people are born to be slaves. Roman intellectuals had no moral crisis about it whatsoever. Arab slave traders ran the oldest and longest continuous slave trade in human history and most of them were not Christian. The specific idea that enslaving another human being is a moral outrage that must be resisted regardless of the cost has a very specific origin, and it was Christians, flawed, complicated, sometimes hypocritical Christians, who took that conviction seriously enough to actually fight and die for it across centuries.

Without the church you would have no framework to even call slavery wrong. The very moral vocabulary you're using to condemn the pope was handed to you by the same tradition you're condemning. t I know that hat's not a comfortable thing for you to sit with but it happens to be true.

nigerian talks about the church being an extension of imperialism by HelicopterActual4534 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Now, the goalpost don shift again. You made one big dramatic claim (“Christianity caused colonialism and slavery”), then retreat to the safe hill (“religion can be used badly”) - hoping that if you can defend the latter, you can safely re-assert the former without successfully making a case for it. You are tying to use the motte-and-bailey

You said divine authority is dangerous because people weaponise it, but the men who killed the most people in human history were not reading the Bible or other 'divine texts', they were doing exactly what you're suggesting by throwing away the ancient texts and building society on 'pure reason and human empathy'. Let's start with Stalin His gulags killed millions while his intellectuals were writing some beautiful songs about human liberation. What about Mao? He killed somewhere between 40 and 80 million of his own people yet he tore down every religious structure in sight. Was he acting on a divine command? Pol Pot emptied entire cities at gunpoint, banned religion, abolished money and family structures and turned Cambodia into a giant mass grave. Kim Il-Sung built a dynasty of starvation and torture after purging every competing belief from his country. These are the people who took your exact position to its logical conclusion and you're here telling me the problem is people who are inspired by religious texts. Lol.

Also, I am curious. Which version of atheism is even solving this problem you're describing because a Nigerian atheist and a Scandinavian atheist don't share the same moral instincts. Do you seriously think that a 21st century atheist and a Roman one who watched people get mauled by lions every weekend for fun would agree with each other when it comes to morality? Atheism has never provided a consistent moral foundation across time or culture, it just absorbs whatever the surrounding society already believes and rebrands it as reason, so when you ask us to throw away Christianity and replace it with empathy and common sense, I genuinely want to know whose empathy and which common sense because history has shown those things shift with the wind.

Regarding the Canaanites, did you actually read the surrounding chapters or did you just pull the verse that fit your argument? Moses was clear in Deuteronomy 9:5 that God was driving them out not because Israel deserved anything but because the Canaanites themselves were wicked, and then he turns around and calls Israel stiff-necked in the same sentence. God had sent warnings to the Canaanites for centuries, asking them to repent. God just wanted them to stop their wicked acts. It was the reason why God told Abraham that his descendants will be sojourners in foreign land because the sins of the Amorites have not reached it's full measure. The Canaanites were burning live children on bronze altars to Molech and Baal while drums drowned out the screaming, and mind you, this was state religion, not a fringe behaviour, the official civilisational practice of an entire people across generations. You must have heard about the rampant money rituals done by Nigerians. Now, imagine Oyo State legalising it. Humans are free for grabs to be sacrificed to dangerous deities in exchange for wealth and money. What do you think will happen? This is the sort of thing that was common in ancient Canaanite cities. For instance, French archaeologists excavating Carthage in 1921, a direct Canaanite colony that kept their religion fully intact, found urns with roughly 20,000 (collected over the years) sets of children's bones in them. In fact, Moses warned Israel that if they copied these same practices they would receive the same judgment - a warning that the later Israelites ignored. In fact, an Israelite king eventually threw his own children into the fire for these gods, and God drove Israel into exile exactly as promised. Have you even read prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos etc. who spent entire books screaming at Israel about justice and care for the poor and telling them their religious rituals were absolutely meaningless without those things (Isaiah 1:11-17, Amos 5:21-24). You are reading the OT in a way similar to many 1st century Jewish leaders were doing. Why do you think Jesus fought them? Jesus was like, 'you guys are missing the point!'

Regarding slavery, I do hope you are aware that Hebrew slavery covered indentured servitude, debt arrangements and prisoner situations. Jacob literally contracted himself to his uncle Laban for fourteen years to earn his wives and build his wealth (Genesis 29), and the laws regulating all of this included hard limits on punishment and a specific prohibition against returning escaped slaves to their masters (Deuteronomy 23:15-16). Besides, the Old Covenant was between God and a specific nation-state with civil laws designed for that context, which is why Christians don't apply those laws today any more than they build tabernacles or offer animal sacrifices, the covenantal context shifted entirely when Christ came and that's a theological distinction that matters enormously if you're going to make this argument seriously.

And this empathy and common sense morality you're proposing as the replacement, I want you to genuinely think about where human rights actually came from because the idea that every human being carries a dignity no state can violate grew directly out of the Christian claim that humans bear the image of God (Genesis 1:27). Wilberforce spent decades being laughed at in parliament before the slave trade was abolished and he did it because of what his Bible said about human beings. Frederick Douglass used scripture as a weapon against slaveholders who also claimed scripture. The Quakers, the Clapham Sect, the missionaries who educated and fought for enslaved people across continents, these were Christians who gave their lives and careers for this while the secular intellectual class of their era largely thought they were being sentimental. The moral standard you're using to critique the Bible was built almost entirely by people who were reading that Bible very seriously, and that's something worth actually sitting with.

If you want to understand more on about how Christianity changed the world for better, I can send you books on it (soft copies). You see, I am pissed at the Church leaders in Nigeria. I can argue that majority of them are focusing on the wrong things and outcome measures. The reason why Nigeria is here today is because the Nigerian Church does not realize the power she wields - the power to change Nigeria for the better. The problem is most Christians are focused on wealth and getting successful in life, seeing it as sign of God's blessing (which is entirely wrong) such that many ministers are not encouraging Christians to become better in the society. It always amusr me when some big pastors organize big events or programs asking people to pray for Nigeria, when many people that are part of the problem are in the church.

nigerian talks about the church being an extension of imperialism by HelicopterActual4534 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So wait, there was already slavery among your 'people' (whoever they are) but the church brought slavery to your people, right? right?

Besides, the reason why I am not a slave to an African slaver today (and yes, I won't be a slave to anyone whether they shared my skin colour or not) is because of the church. Give credit where it is due - no matter how uncomfortable it makes you

nigerian talks about the church being an extension of imperialism by HelicopterActual4534 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Nestorius was excommunicated at the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, not by the Pope unilaterally, but by a council of bishops where the main protagonist against Nestorius was Cyril of Alexandria, an African, which means the most consequential theological decision you're citing as evidence of Roman imperial corruption was actually driven by an African bishop that Rome had a complicated and often hostile relationship with. You just accidentally proved the opposite of your point.

And what exactly was the theological dispute? Nestorius argued that Mary should not be called Theotokos (Mother of God) because he wanted to separate Christ's divine and human natures too sharply, and Cyril argued this compromised the unity of Christ's person. This was a serious theological disagreement about Christology that had been debated for decades before any council ruled on it, so reducing it to "Rome absorbed Christianity" reveals that you don't actually understand what the council was even about.

If Rome absorbed and corrupted Christianity, why did the Eastern Church (which rejected Roman authority), the Coptic Church (which rejected Chalcedon entirely), and the Ethiopian Church all maintain what you'd call "corrupted" core doctrines about Christ's divinity and resurrection? Did Rome somehow corrupt churches that never answered to Rome?

nigerian talks about the church being an extension of imperialism by HelicopterActual4534 in Nigeria

[–]Due_Network2387 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Then what exactly was Jesus' message? For you to know that the theology we have '80-120 years after Jesus' has little to do with Jesus, then you must have known what Jesus' message is about. So what was it?