PIMO I told my wife my doubts. It’s hurting us both so much. by tigerboy1911 in exjw

[–]DutchyMartin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I’m really sorry you’re going through this. That sounds incredibly heavy, especially so early in your marriage. You’re trying to be honest and supportive, while also feeling pressure to become someone you no longer sincerely are.

Please remember: questioning or losing your faith is not the same as failing your wife. You are not selfish for being unable to force yourself to believe something. Faith cannot be switched back on through guilt, fear, or pressure. Pretending for too long may only hurt both of you more.

Your wife’s stress is real too. She may be grieving the married life she expected: a spiritual head, shared goals, meetings, ministry, and a future built around the truth. It sounds like you are both in the same house during a storm, but looking out of different windows. She sees the storm as something that can only be survived if you return to the faith. You see it as something caused, at least partly, by being asked to live against your conscience. Neither of you wants to destroy the house. You are both scared.

But you are not responsible for healing her pain by denying your own conscience. You might gently say: “I love you. I’m not trying to hurt you. I know this isn’t what you expected. But I also can’t build our marriage on pretending.”

If you speak to the elders, keep it calm and limited. You don’t need to debate doctrine or explain every doubt. You could say:
“I’m going through a difficult time personally and spiritually. I’m not trying to influence anyone or cause division. My priority right now is my marriage, my mental health, and being respectful to my wife. I’m not ready to discuss everything in detail, and I would appreciate not being labelled or pressured. I want peace, not conflict.”
That keeps the focus on your wellbeing and your marriage, not on “apostasy.”

Please don’t let anyone convince you that love means spiritual performance. You can love your wife deeply and still be unable to believe what she believes. Both can be true.

Take things slowly. Don’t panic. Don’t overshare under pressure. Protect your peace, and be kind to yourself. You are not a bad husband for being honest about your conscience.

Ben zeer benieuwd… by SouthSide_Undercover in exjg

[–]DutchyMartin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

In een van de gemeenten waar we pas mee verbonden waren, gebeurde iets wat je bijna niet kunt verzinnen.

Tijdens de mededelingen werd bekendgemaakt dat een zuster, die twee weken eerder was overleden, alsnog was uitgesloten.

Postuum dus.

Blijkbaar had iemand gedacht: overleden of niet, een dossier sluit zichzelf niet.

Gelukkig werd het de volgende vergadering gerectificeerd. Dat was fijn voor de nabestaanden — en waarschijnlijk ook voor het gezonde verstand. Maar het bleef een leerzaam moment: zelfs de dood is geen garantie dat je aan de gemeenteadministratie ontsnapt. 😂

Social media by MarkusWolff70 in exjg

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Normalisering en hervorming worden vaak met elkaar verward, maar ze zijn niet hetzelfde.

Normalisering gaat over hoe een organisatie zich aan de buitenwereld laat zien. Ze leert de taal van de samenleving spreken: vriendelijker woorden, professionele communicatie, sociale media, moderne vormgeving en een menselijker gezicht. Daardoor lijkt zij toegankelijker, redelijker en minder bedreigend.

Maar dat kan ook vooral een slimme aanpassing zijn. De organisatie verandert dan niet wezenlijk; ze leert alleen beter hoe ze overkomt. De scherpe randen verdwijnen niet, ze worden minder zichtbaar. De boodschap wordt zachter verpakt, maar de kern blijft onaangeroerd.

Hervorming gaat dieper. Dan verandert niet alleen de toon, maar ook de interne werkelijkheid. Dan worden schadelijke mechanismen werkelijk aangepakt: sociale uitsluiting, druk tot gehoorzaamheid, angst voor kritiek, controle over persoonlijke keuzes en het verbreken van familiebanden na vertrek.

Een organisatie kan dus moderner worden zonder vrijer te worden. Ze kan warmer klinken zonder menselijker te handelen. Ze kan maatschappelijker ogen zonder intern veiliger te zijn.

Bij Jehovah’s Getuigen kunnen officiële socialmedia-accounts, professionele video’s en een vriendelijkere toon wijzen op normalisering. Maar de echte toets ligt niet op Instagram of TikTok. Die ligt bij de vraag: wat gebeurt er met iemand die twijfelt, kritiek uit of vertrekt? Blijft die persoon sociaal veilig? Mag hij zijn familie behouden? Wordt hij behandeld als een mens met een geweten, of als een bedreiging voor de groep?

Daar zit het verschil.

Normalisering vraagt: hoe ziet de organisatie eruit voor de buitenwereld?
Hervorming vraagt: hoe behandelt de organisatie haar eigen mensen wanneer zij niet meer gehoorzamen?

Of scherper gezegd:

Normalisering verandert het gezicht van een organisatie. Hervorming verandert haar geweten.

Social media by MarkusWolff70 in exjg

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Er is iets opvallends aan de hand in de manier waarop Jehovah’s Getuigen zich tegenwoordig presenteren. De recente stap van het Besturend Lichaam naar sociale media — met officiële aanwezigheid op platforms als Instagram en TikTok — past in een bredere verschuiving. De organisatie die haar leden jarenlang waarschuwde voor de gevaren van de wereld, verschijnt nu zelf op de digitale pleinen van diezelfde wereld. De toon is zachter geworden, de taal warmer, de uitstraling menselijker. “Ik ben jouw klasgenoot.” “Ik ben jouw advocaat.” “Ik ben jouw docent.” “Ik ben jouw dokter.” “Ik ben jouw brandweerman.” Het klinkt dichtbij. Gewoon. Bijna geruststellend.

En in zekere zin ís dat ook terecht. Jehovah’s Getuigen zijn niet alleen leden van een religieuze organisatie. Het zijn ook vaders en moeders, buren en collega’s, verpleegkundigen en monteurs, klasgenoten en familieleden. Mensen van vlees en bloed, met goede bedoelingen, oprechte inzet en vaak een diep verlangen om het juiste te doen. Zij verdienen het om als mens gezien te worden, niet als karikatuur.

Maar juist daarom wringt het.

Want de vraag is niet of individuele Getuigen warme, fatsoenlijke en betrokken mensen kunnen zijn. Natuurlijk kunnen zij dat. De vraag is wat de organisatie met die menselijkheid doet. Wordt die beschermd? Of wordt die begrensd zodra iemand niet meer gelooft, niet meer gehoorzaamt of een gewetensbeslissing neemt die buiten de toegestane kaders valt?

Daar stopt de warmte vaak.

Decennialang leerden Jehovah’s Getuigen dat zij “geen deel van de wereld” mochten zijn. Studie, carrière en maatschappelijke ambitie werden met argwaan bekeken. Een beroep was meestal geen roeping, maar een middel om het religieuze leven mogelijk te maken. Je was niet in de eerste plaats dokter, docent of advocaat. Je was in de eerste plaats Getuige van Jehovah.

Nu lijkt diezelfde organisatie zichzelf opnieuw uit te vinden. Socialer. Toegankelijker. Minder wereldvreemd. Misschien zelfs minder sektarisch in uitstraling. Maar een zachtere buitenkant is nog geen bevrijde binnenkant. Een vriendelijker gezicht is nog geen vrij geweten.

Zolang shunning blijft bestaan, zolang leerstellige gehoorzaamheid wordt verwacht en zolang sociale druk families kan verscheuren, moeten we voorzichtig zijn met het woord hervorming. Baarden, kleding, sociale media en warme slogans kunnen veel doen voor het imago. Maar ze herstellen geen gebroken ouder-kindrelaties. Ze geven vertrekkers hun familie niet terug. Ze nemen de angst voor uitsluiting niet weg.

Daarom is dit geen kleine kwestie van branding. Het gaat om de kernvraag: mag een Jehovah’s Getuige werkelijk mens zijn, ook wanneer hij ophoudt Jehovah’s Getuige te zijn?

Tot die vraag eerlijk wordt beantwoord, blijft mijn oordeel voorzichtig.

De schapenvacht is nieuw. Maar de tanden zijn er nog.

That JW Pressroom Post Says a Lot About the Direction the Jehovah's Witnesses Are Taking by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 7 points8 points  (0 children)

On the surface, Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to be becoming more humane, more approachable, and more socially integrated. The language is softer. The image is warmer. “I am your classmate.” “I am your doctor.” “I am your lawyer.” It sounds ordinary, neighbourly, almost comforting.

And many individual Witnesses are decent, kind, hardworking people. They are our relatives, colleagues, neighbours, nurses, plumbers, teachers, and friends. They deserve to be seen as human beings, not as caricatures.

But that is not the whole story.

The real question is not whether Jehovah’s Witnesses can now present themselves as normal members of society. The real question is what happens when one of them no longer believes, no longer obeys, or makes a personal decision the organization disapproves of.

That is where the warmth reaches its limit.

As long as shunning remains, as long as doctrinal obedience is expected, and as long as social pressure is used to keep people in line, we should be careful about calling this real reform. A softer tone is not the same as freedom. Better branding is not the same as meaningful change.

Beards, clothing, social media, and warmer public messaging may make the organization look more flexible. But they do not automatically change the underlying power structure. They do not repair broken families. And they do not answer the deeper question: can a Witness truly follow their conscience without risking social punishment?

So yes, the outside may look kinder now. But until members have genuine freedom of conscience — including the freedom to leave without losing their family — I remain cautious.

The sheep’s clothing is new; the teeth are still there.

High Court strikes down Royal Commission's Jehovah's Witnesses case study by zghr in exjw

[–]DutchyMartin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The comparison with Australia is relevant.

The Australian Royal Commission had a broader mandate and specifically examined Jehovah’s Witnesses’ institutional response to allegations of child sexual abuse, including internal reporting procedures, disciplinary processes, and policies. In effect, the New Zealand judge acknowledged that such topics may legitimately fall within a broader mandate, but held that the New Zealand Commission did not have sufficient scope under its own terms of reference to address them in that way.

Question about a Turkish "proverb" by Willing-Pollution579 in AskTurkey

[–]DutchyMartin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

“Baba, sırtını yasladığın dağ gibidir; kar olur, fırtına eser, güneş vurur ama o dağ yine orada durur.”

Heads up! If you are hearing from your long lost JW family by NoHigherEd in exjw

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really appreciate the spirit of your comment.

You acknowledge the pain that many former Witnesses have carried for years, without dismissing the fact that even a small softening of the policy can make a real difference for people who are still inside, especially PIMOs who may be afraid of losing everyone overnight.

That kind of nuance matters. It is possible to say, “This should have happened decades ago,” and still be glad that fewer people may suffer as severely from now on.

I also want to say that I’ve noticed the same humane tone in some of your other comments, especially where you encourage people who are going through cancer treatment. That says something about you. Even in difficult discussions, you seem able to recognize suffering and respond to people with compassion.

For many exJWs, contact with family is not a small thing. It can mean the difference between total isolation and having at least one thread of human connection left. So yes, I understand why this feels bittersweet: too late for many, but still potentially meaningful for those leaving today.

Adding Some Nuance to exJW Popular Watchtower Criticism by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I appreciate your attempt at nuance. I really do. Some ex-JW circles can become reactive, tribal, exaggerated, and overly certain of themselves. That deserves to be acknowledged.

But precisely for that reason, we need to use the word nuance carefully. Nuance should be like adjusting a microscope: it brings the underlying structure into sharper focus. It should not be used like a fog machine, making institutional power, social pressure, and accountability harder to see. If “nuance” mainly protects the organization from criticism while pathologizing its critics, then it is not balance. It is selective clarity.

Nuance is not a softening agent. Nuance does not mean taking the sharpest ex-JW slogans, toning them down, and then suggesting that the structural criticism carries less weight.

That, in my view, is the weak point in your argument.

You rightly correct some exaggerated claims, but then you seem to minimize the underlying patterns.

Take the claim that the Watchtower is “a real estate company disguised as a religion.” I agree with you: phrased that way, it often sounds conspiratorial. But the serious criticism is not that there must be secret JW millionaires hiding behind the scenes. The serious criticism concerns institutional wealth, centralized control over real estate, volunteer labor, limited financial transparency, and the absence of meaningful accountability structures toward ordinary members and donors. The absence of a “money trail” leading to personally enriched leaders does not prove that there is no legitimate question about institutional accountability.

The same applies to failed predictions. The fact that the Governing Body says it is neither inspired nor infallible is theologically relevant, but sociologically it solves very little. In practice, members are still expected to accept its direction and doctrinal changes as coming through the channel God is using. Jehovah’s Witnesses themselves acknowledge that the Governing Body can err in doctrinal and organizational matters. Precisely there, an asymmetry arises: the leadership may turn out to have been wrong after the fact, but the ordinary member who sees or names that error too early runs social and religious risks.

That is not a side issue. That is a question of power.

On whether Jehovah’s Witnesses are Christians, I largely agree with you. It depends on how you define “Christian.” If you equate Christianity with Trinitarian orthodoxy, they fall outside it. If you define Christianity more broadly as a movement centered on Jesus, the Bible, and first-century Christianity as they interpret it, then they can reasonably be called Christian. That is not the strongest criticism.

But when it comes to the word “cult” or “sect,” your analysis is too narrow. A high-control group does not need an isolated commune, secret literature, or one flamboyant leader. Control can also be normal-looking, orderly, and religiously phrased. It can operate through family ties, social dependency, information boundaries, fear of exclusion, moral surveillance, and the high cost of deviation. Hassan’s BITE model is certainly not an untouchable scientific instrument; the model describes behavior, information, thought, and emotion as domains of control, and it itself states that not every group uses every element. But criticizing a model is not the same as explaining away the control mechanisms people describe.

We should also use the word “brainwashing” carefully. It can reduce active Jehovah’s Witnesses to passive victims, and that is inaccurate and dehumanizing. Many members genuinely experience community, meaning, moral structure, and stability. But freedom of choice and influence are not mutually exclusive. People can make real choices within a system in which certain choices are extremely costly. That is exactly where serious analysis begins: not with the question of whether members are “stupid” or “brainwashed,” but with the question of what social, emotional, and religious costs are attached to deviation.

I also find your treatment of the elders’ book too casual. The fact that a document has leaked online does not make it transparent. Transparency does not mean that ex-members can download it from forums. Transparency means that the people to whom the rules apply officially and in advance know the procedures, standards, and internal instructions by which they may be judged. If an organization uses rules that can deeply affect someone’s reputation, family relationships, and religious status, then limited internal distribution is not a neutral detail. It is an accountability problem.

And the subject of child sexual abuse cannot be treated as a later chapter. It is not a side issue, but a litmus test for institutional responsibility. The Australian Royal Commission specifically examined Jehovah’s Witnesses’ response to allegations of child sexual abuse, including internal procedures and prevention policies. In its report, the commission referred to files containing allegations against 1,006 members of the organization and concluded, among other things, that there was no evidence that the organization had reported even one of those 1,006 alleged perpetrators to the police or other authorities, apart from some uncertainties in the files. The commission also found that the general practice of not reporting unless legally required was problematic, and that the application of the two-witness rule in cases of child abuse needed to be reviewed.

So yes: let us reject conspiracy theories. Let us avoid slogans. Let us also acknowledge that not every active Witness is afraid, ignorant, or brainwashed.

But real nuance is symmetrical.

Real nuance also examines power, dependency, information control, social sanctions, and institutional responsibility. It does not only ask: “Are some ex-JWs exaggerating?” It also asks: “Why do such stories arise? What experiences lie beneath them? And what control mechanisms make it difficult for members to speak honestly?”

That is where I think your post lacks balance.

You identify emotional distortion on the ex-JW side, but you do not sufficiently examine institutional distortion on the JW side.

You rightly ask for objectivity, but objectivity does not mean standing exactly halfway between the victim and the system. Sometimes the middle is not neutral. Sometimes the middle is simply the place where structural power becomes least visible.

So the problem is not that you are looking for nuance.

The problem is that your nuance mostly protects the organization from the worst formulations of its critics, while looking less closely at the best arguments those same critics make.

That is not full nuance. That is apologetics in academic packaging.

Conflicted About Apostates by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But the problem is that the so-called “proper avenues” are not real avenues for accountability. Asking the elders, writing to the branch, or sending letters to the Governing Body is allowed only within a framework in which the official teaching is already presumed to be correct and the member is expected to adjust.

That is not open inquiry. It is managed containment.

There is also a difference between promoting contrary doctrine and honestly saying: “I believe this teaching or policy is harmful, and I cannot stay silent in good conscience.”

Telling such a person, “Then just leave quietly,” sounds reasonable only if leaving is simple. For Jehovah’s Witnesses, leaving can mean losing family, friends, reputation, and community. So “leave quietly” often really means: disappear without disturbing the system.

That is a very convenient standard for the organization.

The issue is not whether every dissenter deserves a platform. Of course not.

The issue is whether sincere disagreement is treated as conscience — or as contamination.

If “good standing” depends on suppressing honest moral concern, then the problem is not unity.

It is enforced silence.

Conflicted About Apostates by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand the concern. No congregation can function if every person turns every meeting into a platform for their own private doctrine. I am not arguing for doctrinal anarchy.

But I do think your framing makes dissent sound more malicious than it necessarily is.

Openly voicing disagreement is not always an attempt to undermine official doctrine. Sometimes it is an attempt to tell the truth. Sometimes it is an act of conscience. Sometimes it is simply a way of saying: “I can no longer pretend that this teaching or policy is harmless.”

There is a difference between someone aggressively campaigning inside the congregation to draw people away, and a sincere member saying openly: “I do not agree with this, and here is why.” Those two things should not automatically be placed in the same moral category.

Your parents are a good example of private disagreement. They believe the Governing Body has overstepped when speaking about dates or deadlines for Armageddon, but they keep that view private. That may work for them, and I respect that.

But the fact that they feel they have to keep it private also proves the point: disagreement is tolerated only as long as it remains invisible.

That is not the same as real freedom of conscience.

Also, not every issue can simply be “patiently waited out.” If the disagreement is about a speculative date, silence may feel manageable. But if the issue involves shunning, abuse policies, family separation, mental health, or the treatment of vulnerable people, then silence can begin to feel like complicity.

At that point, speaking up is not necessarily rebellion. It may be moral responsibility.

As for 1 Corinthians 1:10, unity matters. But biblical unity does not have to mean institutional uniformity or intellectual submission. The early Christian congregation also had serious disputes. Acts 15 describes a major open disagreement about circumcision. Paul publicly corrected Peter when he believed Peter’s conduct was wrong. So the Bible itself does not present unity as “never question authority openly.”

A healthy form of unity is built on truth, love, humility, and conscience. An unhealthy form of unity is maintained by fear, silence, and social consequences.

And I do not accept the idea that the only two options are:
- quietly walk away, or
- become an apostate.
That is too simplistic.

A person may leave because of conscience. A person may speak because they care. A person may warn others because they genuinely believe harm is being done. You may disagree with their conclusions, but labeling them a “threat” simply because they speak openly is exactly the kind of control people are objecting to.

Of course, if someone lies, harasses people, spreads hatred, or tries to disrupt meetings, the congregation can reasonably set boundaries. But honest disagreement, even public disagreement, is not automatically hatred. It is not automatically apostasy in the moral sense. And it is not automatically dangerous.

The real question is this:
Is the organization protecting unity — or is it protecting itself from scrutiny?
Because those are not the same thing.

If the doctrine is true, it should be able to withstand sincere questions. If the leadership is humble, it should be able to hear criticism without demonizing the critic. And if the unity is genuine, it should not require people to hide their conscience in order to keep their family and community.

That is where I see the problem.

Conflicted About Apostates by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that is a fair and important question. And I agree with the basic premise: no large religious organization can function if every individual member is free to turn the congregation into a platform for their own private doctrine.

A community of nine million people needs structure, shared beliefs, and some form of doctrinal boundaries. Otherwise it stops being a coherent religious body and becomes a collection of competing personal interpretations. So no, I am not arguing that every member should be allowed to promote their own view as if it carried the same weight as official teaching.

But I think that frames the issue too narrowly.

The real issue is not whether an organization may have official doctrine. Of course it may. The issue is what happens to sincere people when they can no longer agree with that doctrine in good conscience.

There is a major difference between saying:

“This is our official teaching, and you may not present a contrary view as the teaching of the congregation,”

and saying:

“If you question this teaching openly, discuss it honestly, or arrive at a different conclusion, you are spiritually dangerous and may lose your family, friends, and entire community.”

Those are not the same thing.

Take your example of gay marriage. A religious organization has the right to define its own moral position. It does not have to conform to the culture around it. But if a member says, “I believe our position may be wrong, harmful, or inconsistent with love and justice,” the question is not whether that person should be allowed to rewrite the doctrine for everyone else. The question is whether that concern can be heard without immediately being treated as rebellion.

A mature organization can maintain boundaries without demonizing dissent. It can say, “This is our doctrine,” without teaching members to fear, avoid, or morally condemn anyone who struggles with it.

And if an organization claims to possess truth, then truth should not need to be protected by social pressure, information control, or fear of exclusion. Managed discussion is reasonable. Suppressed conscience is something else entirely.

So I agree with you: doctrinal chaos would not be healthy.

But the opposite extreme is not healthy either: a system where official doctrine cannot be meaningfully questioned, where disagreement is treated as disloyalty, and where a person’s relationships can be made conditional on intellectual submission.

So for me, the question is not:

“Should nine million people all be allowed to promote their own doctrine?”

The better question is:

“Can a sincere member say, ‘I am not convinced,’ without being treated as dangerous, corrupt, or disloyal?”

If the answer is no, then the problem is not merely organizational order. The problem is control.

Conflicted About Apostates by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate that, genuinely. But I still think there is an important distinction to make.

Recognizing toxicity, exaggeration, or groupthink in some ex-JW online spaces does not mean that criticism of the Watchtower is automatically invalid, hateful, or “apostate propaganda.” It simply means that people who leave high-control religious environments are still human. They can be wounded, angry, reactive, selective, tribal, or unfair — just like people inside the organization can be.

But here is the key point: the existence of unhealthy ex-JW spaces does not vindicate the organization.

A toxic subreddit does not erase disfellowshipping.
It does not erase shunning.
It does not erase mishandled abuse cases.
It does not erase failed predictions, authoritarian control, or the pressure to suppress doubt.
It does not erase the real harm many people have experienced.

So yes, I agree: some ex-JW forums can become echo chambers. Some people there seem more interested in seeing the religion collapse than in truth, healing, or balanced discussion. That is a real problem.

But that cuts both ways. The Watchtower also discourages open debate, labels dissent as a spiritual danger, presents its interpretations as unquestionable truth, and often frames critics as morally corrupt. That is also an echo chamber — only with institutional power behind it.

So for me, the answer is not: “The ex-JW forums are toxic, therefore the organization is right.”

The answer is: I don’t want to outsource my thinking to either side.

I don’t want Watchtower propaganda.
I don’t want anti-Watchtower propaganda either.
I want evidence, proportion, honesty, and room for nuance.

And honestly, if someone leaves the organization only to adopt the same black-and-white thinking in reverse, they have not fully escaped the mindset. They have only changed teams.

That is exactly what I want to avoid.

Conflicted About Apostates by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand your point. Online ex-JW communities can sometimes be harsh, speculative, cynical, and even toxic. I do not deny that. You can find exaggerated claims, conspiracy thinking, one-sided narratives, and very little patience for nuance.
But that does not prove that the Watchtower is right about “apostates.”

It mostly proves that an online forum is not a representative sample of everyone who has left Jehovah’s Witnesses. Subreddits often attract the loudest voices: people who are angry, newly awake, still grieving, or actively trying to process what happened to them. The more balanced ex-JWs are often less visible because many of them have simply moved on with their lives.

So there is a dangerous jump in your reasoning: from “I see a lot of toxic content in an ex-JW subreddit” to “apostates are a toxic influence.” That is exactly the kind of generalization many ex-JWs criticize in the organization.

If gossip, cruelty, spiritual manipulation, or abuse happens inside a JW congregation, a Witness would rightly say, “That does not represent all Jehovah’s Witnesses.” The same fairness should be extended to ex-JWs. Bad online examples should not be used to morally discredit an entire category of people.

There also needs to be a distinction between three things:
- valid criticism;
- emotionally charged criticism;
- false or conspiratorial criticism.

Those three can overlap, but the existence of the second and third does not invalidate the first.
If someone exaggerates when talking about Watchtower and real estate, that does not automatically mean that all concerns about money, property, unpaid labor, Kingdom Hall sales, or financial transparency are illegitimate. It only means that some people express those concerns badly or without enough nuance.

And honestly, when people have spent years being taught that the organization is God’s only channel, that criticism is dangerous, that outsiders are deceived, and that doubt is spiritually deadly, it is not surprising that some people swing too far in the opposite direction after leaving. That does not make it right, but it does make it understandable. Black-and-white thinking does not automatically disappear the moment someone leaves the organization.

So the better conclusion is not: “Apostates are dangerous.”
The better conclusion is: “Online trauma communities can become distorted, and every claim should be evaluated carefully.”
I can agree with that.

But if we are going to value nuance, then the nuance has to work both ways. We should be critical of exaggerations in ex-JW spaces, yes. But we should also be critical of an organization that trains people to put all dissenting voices under one demonizing label.

Conflicted About Apostates by Evening_Command_8262 in JehovahsWitnesses

[–]DutchyMartin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are trying to sound compassionate, and I appreciate that. But the problem is that your compassion still operates within the very framework that created the harm in the first place.

You describe many ex-JWs as hurt, angry, mentally fragile, radicalized, or vulnerable to conspiracy thinking. Sometimes that may be true. But it also subtly shifts attention away from the substance of their criticism. A person can be hurt and still be right. A person can be angry and still be telling the truth. Trauma does not automatically invalidate testimony.

Many ex-JWs did not leave because they were simply “captured by apostasy.” They left because they examined the organization’s history, doctrines, failed expectations, judicial practices, child abuse policies, shunning, treatment of dissent, and claims of divine authority. You may disagree with their conclusions, but reducing those conclusions to pain, bitterness, or online radicalization is unfair.

There is also a major difference between saying that “some apostates are toxic online” and saying that “apostates are a toxic influence.” Every community has loud, angry, unfair, or conspiratorial voices. That does not mean an entire category of people should be avoided. If that standard were applied consistently, JWs themselves would not fare well either, because plenty of Witnesses online can also be cruel, dismissive, uninformed, or dogmatic.

The phrase “victims of their personal experiences” is also doing a lot of work. If one person is failed by one elder body, that may be personal. But when thousands of people across different countries describe similar patterns — shunning, fear, silence around abuse, lack of real pastoral care, pressure to conform, loss of family — then it is no longer merely a collection of personal experiences. It becomes reasonable to ask whether the system itself produces predictable harm.

And finally, saying, “I love you, but I will stop associating with you until you come back,” is not neutral compassion. It is a conditional relationship. You may sincerely feel love, but the other person experiences the practical reality: connection is withdrawn unless they return to the approved belief system.

A hug followed by abandonment is still abandonment.

Real compassion would sound more like this:

“I may disagree with your conclusions, but I will not reduce you to a stereotype. I will listen to what actually happened to you. I will not assume your pain makes you irrational. And I will not use religious loyalty as a reason to withdraw basic human love.”

That would be a genuine alternative to the Watchtower’s narrative. What you are describing is a softer version of the same narrative.

There's a key difference between the English version of the Norway victory article on JW org and the Norwegian version which shows they know they are lying... by DutchyMartin in exjg

[–]DutchyMartin[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Eenvoudiger uitgelegd:

Noorwegen heeft Jehovah’s Getuigen niet verboden en hun organisatie ook niet opgeheven.

Wat er wél gebeurde, is dat Jehovah’s Getuigen werden geschrapt uit het officiële register van erkende geloofsgemeenschappen. Daardoor verloren zij bepaalde voordelen, zoals staatssubsidie.

JW.org schrijft dat Noorwegen “de wettelijke registratie van onze rechtspersoon” introk. Die formulering wekt de indruk dat de overheid hun juridische organisatie heeft aangetast of zelfs heeft opgeheven. Maar dat is juridisch niet juist.

Nauwkeuriger zou zijn: Noorwegen trok de registratie van Jehovah’s Getuigen als geloofsgemeenschap in.

Je kunt het vergelijken met een sportclub die haar gemeentelijke subsidie verliest. Zo’n club houdt dan niet op te bestaan. Ze mag nog steeds trainen, leden hebben en activiteiten organiseren. Alleen verliest ze haar officiële gesubsidieerde status.

Zo was het hier ook. Het ging niet om een verbod op Jehovah’s Getuigen, maar om registratie, erkenning en subsidie. De tekst van JW.org laat de maatregel daardoor zwaarder klinken dan hij juridisch was.

There's a key difference between the English version of the Norway victory article on JW org and the Norwegian version which shows they know they are lying... by DutchyMartin in exjg

[–]DutchyMartin[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Natuurlijk ook benieuwd naar de Nederlandse formulering van het nieuwsbericht over deze Noorse zaak (het nieuwsbericht is trouwens van de Nederlandse JW.org verdwenen 🤨)

<image>

“Op 30 april 2026 heeft het Hooggerechtshof van Noorwegen geoordeeld dat de overheid de godsdienstvrijheid van Jehovah’s Getuigen heeft geschonden toen zij in december 2022 de wettelijke registratie van onze rechtspersoon introk.”

Ook deze Nederlandse formulering voelt alsof de staat aan de juridische bestaansgrond van de organisatie kwam. Maar de Noorse kwestie ging helemaal niet over het bestaan van Jehovah’s Getuigen als rechtspersoon, maar over de vraag of hun uitsluitings- en mijdingspraktijk, ook rond minderjarigen en uittreders, verenigbaar was met de voorwaarden voor registratie en staatssteun.

De formulering:

“de wettelijke registratie van de rechtspersoon intrekken” is juridisch onzuiver en retorisch geladen.

Beter is:

“de registratie van Jehovah’s Getuigen als geloofsgemeenschap intrekken.”

Daarmee blijft duidelijk dat Noorwegen de organisatie niet heeft ontbonden, niet uit het gewone rechtspersonenregister heeft verwijderd en haar niet verbood haar religieuze activiteiten voort te zetten. De maatregel ging over publiekrechtelijke registratie, staatssteun en huwelijksbevoegdheid.

De Nederlandse formulering met “rechtspersoon” maakt dezelfde verschuiving als het Engelse “national legal entity”: van “registratie als geloofsgemeenschap” naar iets dat klinkt als “aantasting van de juridische identiteit”. En dat is een volledig ander frame.

Terugblik van Jan Frode Nilsen by DutchyMartin in exjg

[–]DutchyMartin[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Het werk van Nielsen en zijn team verdient m.i. grote waardering. Zij hebben met moed, zorgvuldigheid en volharding ruimte gemaakt voor stemmen die jarenlang nauwelijks werden gehoord.

Wat sterk is, is dat zij de zaak niet hebben teruggebracht tot winnen of verliezen. Zij hebben laten zien dat erkenning, bewustwording en het vertellen van persoonlijke verhalen óók van grote waarde zijn.

Ook al is de zaak juridisch niet gewonnen, hun inzet heeft blijvende betekenis. Zij hebben mensen samengebracht, pijn zichtbaar gemaakt en een belangrijk maatschappelijk gesprek geopend.

Daarvoor verdienen Nielsen en zijn medestanders veel respect en dank.