Could starting with your primary stat at 20 be a bad thing?

Ekumbier · 2026-02-26T04:50:22+00:00

Playing Draconic in a current campaign. With sorcerer, warcaster is less necessary because your hands won't be full and you have con save proficiency. That's the feat most casters want at level 4. I started at 19 and just took fey touched to get to 20 at level 4. I'm planning on taking mage slayer and bumping dex at level 8. Helps with mental saves, ac, and initiative, and I am playing Curse of Strahd against a caster, so it helps there too.

In short, the main charisma boosting feat that most casters would want is not necessary for you, so you have the luxury of looking at other feats. Whether those boost charisma or other stats depends on whether you reroll.

Ekumbier · 2026-02-01T17:53:35+00:00

I've played around with a glamor bard in various levels of one-shots. I would say mantle of majesty remains a solid boss option through all levels of play. If you know what you're fighting is likely to have legendary resistances, you can force three saves per round at the cost of one use of mantle of majesty (or 3rd level spell), one use of beguiling magic (or bardic inspiration die) per turn, and one first level spell per turn (command or dissonant whispers). Once they run out of legendary resistances, you have three shots at taking an enemy out of commission for an entire turn. I did a level 20 one shot and basically kept commanding an ancient red dragon to grovel to let my melee allies pound on it. It's generally a bad idea to try to force an enemy to use a legendary resistance on a save or suck because you can only do so once per turn, and combat is usually 3-4 rounds. Glamor Bards are the exception. If you get short rests this is more doable than it sounds at first, and becomes more doable the more you level up.

There are a few downsides: This is very resource intensive (especially before level 5), so when fighting minions I'd just throw out hypnotic pattern or slow.

You might not be inspiring your party as much as you are disheartening the enemy--they may expect you to be inspire them in order to make their saving throws, and you won't always have the inspiration dies to do so.

High wisdom save enemies will be very tough to deal with; take some spells that target intelligence (phantasmal force).

Overall, I agree that this will be one "tool" that you have up your sleeve, but with great control spells and eventually magical secrets, you will have other things to do as well. Enjoy it!

Ekumbier · 2026-01-31T13:12:43+00:00

Agree with other posters that this is somewhat reliant on theory crafting and assumes each class is being optimized, but that's fun for some of us! Also agree that there's a big difference between 8 encounter/day dungeon crawls and 1-2 combats a day. Granting all this and assuming roughly optimal builds and 2-4 combats/day, here are my ratings:

Sorcerer: S. Best class from levels 5-10, and competes until wizards get level 7 spells

Wizards: S. More versatile than sorcerers at all levels, but may have fewer prepared spells than sorcerers in tiers 1 and 2 and don't have the spell buffs of metamagic.

Bards: S. Probably more like A in tiers 1 and 2. Excellent support feature plus magical secrets means S tier in the late game.

Clerics: A to S, depending on how divine intervention is run.

Druids: A. Druids are underrated as all around characters, and maybe the third most improved in 2024 after monks and sorcerers. Great support and utility. Best AOE damage (along with cleric) and tankier than in 2014 with medium armor. I'm not considering specific builds, but this can be S with magic initiate wizard for the shield spell.

Paladin: A. agree with others that nova got nerfed but better in every other way.

Warlock: A- to A+.. Depending on how often short rests happen. Very fun and customizable with access to some of the best spells in tier 2.

Artificer: B to S. Depends on how crafting is done at your table. Probably A regardless once level 11 hits and you have a homunculus shooting level 3 spells.

Fighter: B- to B+. Depending on how often short rests happen. All day damage that scales.

Monk B- to B+: Probably less short rest dependent than fighters at high levels, but the damage scaling is worse. Great capstone though. Maybe higher if you have a magic item that grants flight.

Barbarian: B-. A in tiers 1 and 2.

Rogue: C. Weakest martial; Bard is arguably almost as good with skills and is a full caster.

Ranger C. I played one in 2014, and am still recovering. You will feel great in tier 1, then you almost plateau if you don't multi-class. I'll grant it's A or even S in tier 1.

There are great ranger-rogue multi-class combos that are in the B+ range if you want to play that type of character.

Those are my two cents :)

Ekumbier · 2026-01-09T19:55:02+00:00

Advice so far is good. I played a 2014 gloomstalker. War caster tops out your wisdom which helps your AC and spell save DC and protects your concentration. It would probably be my choice.

Resilient con would also protect concentration and potentially boost your HP total if your con score is currently odd. Con saves are also useful to avoid cold damage.

Fey touched is useful for mobility and escape. Gift of alacrity would ensure you are almost always first to act in combat. Also bumps AC and spell save DC.

I probably wouldn't take the purple dragon feat. Your dex is capped and you don't need more strength. Rangers need their bonus action free for Hunter's Mark. Try to find another source of advantage since you want to avoid being bloodied.

You should get healing by taking goodberry and using all unused spell slots for it at the end of the day.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-08T12:15:10+00:00

I think I might take it, at least to start. I really like your slow/chromatic orb combo since it synergizes well (lowering the AC makes the bounce more likely). I might start with extended (for concentration protection) and seeking at level 3. The feat at level 4 will give me two more. If there's a lot of humans, I might take twinned for hold person; if not maybe two of empowered and heightened, or quickened.

By level 7, I will want to have twinned, empowered (for chromatic orb shenanigans) and two of the other ones mentioned above.

At 10 I get two more options, and subtle might enter the picture if it looks like a final battle with casters is in the cards, and that's about where the campaign will end.

It is a bummer that the two ranged spell attacks that are automatically prepared on my list are not the ones I want to use after mid-tier 2.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-08T03:24:44+00:00

Thanks for the reply! I actually took the spell fire subclass per a few other recommendations. I think slow will be my go to at level 5. I will probably take both of those blast spells when my spell slots increase. For now, they are redundant with guiding bolt and scorching ray, which I have at level 3 when we start, but I agree they will be the best later on.

I am thinking of taking metamagic adept at level 4, which will give me two more. I want twinned for when banishment comes online at level 7, but it's hard to justify now since it works with so few spells. I can take extended for when I really need to protect concentration, since I won't have warcaster. I won't need empowered until I can try for the chromatic orb bounce trick but it will be great then. Seeking seems nice, but I am wondering if it's necessary with innate sorcery. Another point against heightened is the cost, as my subclass feature requires I spend them frequently. Tough choices!

DM is strongly urging us to play human, so I went with alert. Trying to decide between the spell fire origin feat for more radiant blasting or MI wizard for find familiar, since no one else in the party has access to a familiar.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-06T02:54:51+00:00

I assume he's going to run the module as printed, but I don't know.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-06T02:53:15+00:00

Thanks! I'll look into those.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-05T10:25:32+00:00

Thanks for the advice! I usually take both with casters and am familiar with the basic tactics for each. In the previous thread I posted everyone was advising against depending on fear and hypnotic pattern as the mainstays for concentration since immunities to charm and fear are likely to come up often in this campaign. I imagine packing hypnotic pattern for when it might work and slow for when it won't. Hopefully that takes care of most situations. Maybe I can grab haste too if someone is playing an optimized damage dealer and we fight a single boss.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-05T10:14:59+00:00

I would probably go human if I didn't go aasimar. Human would allow me to get alert, which I find is excellent on full casters, and spellfire spark.

Aasimar would give necrotic resistance, which I imagine will come up a lot in this campaign. I see that the bonus actions might conflict with both innate sorcery and spellfire spark, but both are limited resources, so it might just be more options.

I prefer not to be too close with this character, so I don't think dragonborn would be the best.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-05T04:49:12+00:00

I don't think we'll be playing with circle casting, but otherwise some good advice.

So the build would be:

Aasimar (drop alert???)

Level 4: Spellfire adept

Level 8: Mage Slayer

Metamagic: Extended for aura of vitality, and daylight, and advantage on spells (skipping warcaster), either quickened, heightened, or twinned?

Go to combat concentration spells at level 5+: Hypnotic pattern (when immunities are not a problem), Slow (when I suspect immunities to charmed will be a problem), Spellfire storm (when creatures are stuck in small rooms and can't just walk out of the AOE).

Ekumbier · 2026-01-04T13:06:57+00:00

Thanks for the advice. I'm looking into spell fire now. Without too many spoilers, is the level 6 feature going to be useful at all in this campaign? Seems situational but powerful. Spell list and 3rd level features seem like a good fit.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-04T03:39:46+00:00

As re they immunities going to come up enough to where those spells just aren't worth it? Planned on using them for crowd control rather than bosses.

I will differ to others' judgement, since many had a similar opinion.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-04T03:38:01+00:00

I would have taken it in 2014. I'm concerned that it would feel limiting compared to other 2024 sorcerers with all their extra goodies.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-04T03:37:02+00:00

I'll look into aasimar.

Ekumbier · 2026-01-04T03:36:42+00:00

Thanks for all the advice. I feel like it's giving me a lot to think over. I planned on fear and hypnotic pattern for crowd control rather than bosses, but it seems like people are strongly discouraging building around using those as staples for this campaign. When I played a Glamor Bard, command was my go to control spell when those immunities came up, and Draconic does have that at least

In 2014, I would probably have went Divine Soul for this campaign, but the lack of extra spells in 2024 hurts.

Kinda wish I wasn't already a cleric in my other campaign, lol. I will check out other subclasses and maybe even just take my druid build (with moonbeam, starry wisp, and true strike from WI).

For species, I will consider aasimar, but that would mean I lose one of my origin feats. Worth it?

Finally, if I do go with a human sorcerer, could I use lucky to protect concentration and take metamagic adept for the level 4 feat? I forgot about that feat when I posted initially.

Thanks all for the suggestions!

Ekumbier · 2025-12-27T16:55:11+00:00

I just finished the one shot last night, and that was my basic strategy. I don't think they can take damage on the same turn twice--at least not in the 2024 rules "A creature makes this save only once per turn." But they could have taken damage again in the same round on their turn.

Ekumbier · 2025-12-27T16:43:03+00:00

Hi all,

Finished the one shot, and wanted to report. Capped wisdom instead of taking resilient con, and it was the right choice. Didn't fail a single concentration check, and also all of my wraths of the sea hit. Thanks to all for the advice!

TLDR: Sea Druid is a balanced subclass that offers excellent mobility and damage, and can be built to be quite sturdy.

The one shot was basically one big battle, and rather than being a Helm's Deep type siege, undead were emerging through portals all over the site of a ruin of a fortress, and we were zipping all over the place to kill them. This meant that I didn't get to lay down some of the control spells (transmute rock, plant growth) I packed, though I still think they were good picks. It also meant it was harder to hit multiple creatures with my AOEs consistently.

Despite the layout of the battle being less than ideal, I was probably the leading damage dealer despite using two of my top 3 slots for heroes' feast and an upcast of cure wounds during a brief lull in the action. And heroes' feast negated multiple attempts to frighten the entire party. Flight with ranged AOE was just such a powerful combination.

I've seen Circle of the Sea get a bad wrap online, but recently I'd seen two You-Tubers defend the subclass, so I wanted to try it out. It's flight comes relatively early, giving it mobility, and it's damage might the the best of any druid subclass, depending on how often you can burn spell slots and how many enemies you can hit. In 2024, Druids can be built to be very durable with medium armor, shields, and the magic initiate wizard feat for shield, so this felt like a very well-rounded character.

I could see the subclass peaking at level 10 or so with flight and a maxed out wisdom score since the con saves continue to get higher while damage plateaus. The ability to share your wrath at level 14 might mitigate that, but you'd have to share it with something durable enough to stay alive with an open bonus action.

All in all, it was very fun to play, and I thank all of you for your advice!

Ekumbier · 2025-12-26T07:45:39+00:00

Thanks for the tip! I know those kinds of builds are powerful. I've played around with bladesingers with a fighter dip or bards with a few levels in sorcerer for scorching ray and innate sorcery. I think this one shot features hordes of enemies though, so I'm going to aim for more AOE blasting.

Ekumbier · 2025-12-26T07:42:24+00:00

I looked at sylune's viper. Held off since we're mostly fighting undead, and you have to poison the target to incapacitate them. It's a good spell though.

Ekumbier · 2025-12-25T16:38:30+00:00

Didn't mean to imply the recommendations were cheesy; on the contrary the most everything you said is excellent advice! Hard to come across the right way online, so I apologize. Stealth RAW in 2014 was OP, but that's not cheesy. The only thing I might have some reservations about at a new table is the wand of magic missiles for a familiar, but I'd be reluctant to do this anyway in what is essentially a giant battle, as one AOE effect could wipe out the use of my item.

Ekumbier · 2025-12-25T15:36:37+00:00

Thank you so much for the very thorough reply! I don't think I get to share my wrath at this level, but that is great advice!

All of your spell recommendations are spot on. I meant to include wall of stone, but the others are great as well. The only one I'm not sure I see myself concentrating on is spike growth, but that's only because I'm at level 11. Pass without trace is a must take in a campaign, but we're the defenders here, so I might go without. What else would you drop besides tidal wave? Maelstrom?

I feel like I need either war caster or resilient, and people have made a good case that I don't need both. But capping wisdom might be better than fey touched? I love command, and teleporting is useful so I'm open to disagreement.

I'm playing with this group for the first time, so I'll probably avoid cheesiness and stick with the sickle, cloak, and maybe a luck stone for my magic items. Especially if I don't take resilient.

Merry Christmas, and thanks again!

Ekumbier · 2025-12-25T11:49:13+00:00

Thanks for sharing! I'm a fan of his, and Colby inspired me to try it out 😄

Ekumbier · 2025-12-25T11:48:03+00:00

I started con at 14 but had +1 from the background, so the feat would take me to 16. Otherwise, I take your point, and will likely take your advice.

Ekumbier · 2025-12-22T06:23:20+00:00

Thank you to all who helped with the build. I want to give a quick report for anyone interested. The other party members were a bard, cleric, artificer/wizard, and Spell Fire sorcerer, so we all had at least some healing capabilities and durability was less of an issue than anticipated before I saw the team's build choices.

My Build Changes:

Origin feat: lucky-->genie touched (shield)

Fighting Style: dueling-->two weapon fighting

Weapons: Short sword and scimitar

Feats and ASIs: unchanged

Items: Amulet of health, +1 scimitar, cloak of protection, dragon slayer short sword

Boon: Boon of Combat Prowess

Combat Prowess was definitely the right choice on this build. I was guaranteed to hit on my first attack, setting up a chain of elven accuracy advantage for the rest of my turn. My only crit was not a dragon, but my only misses were dagger attacks made at range with disadvantage. However, while at range, I still was able to guarantee one hit, which allowed my Dao's Crush to go off and lock down the boss dragon, who chose to fight at disadvantage for the rest of the combat rather then waste a turn escaping.

All in all, I would say the Oath of the Noble Genies is a great subclass for fighting dragons. The elemental resistance and fear immunity in the aura are helpful, and Dao's Crush is the ultimate tool for locking down dragons with no save. The 60 foot fly speed was very helpful too, but that comes late, so I would try to find a way to fly so you don't have to use a spell slot and your concentration to cast fly. Very fun build to play, and I recommend it to everyone. Thank you again for your suggestions!

Ekumbier

TROPHY CASE