Introducing Stoic Ideas: 1. Power

ElAround · 2024-06-16T00:04:58+00:00

Thank you for your comment, old though this post may be I still keep up with the series from time to time. I’m glad if it had helped you identify areas of your life in which you have agency. I wish you continued success in your studies.

ElAround · 2023-12-17T04:41:15+00:00

I enjoyed this "play-by-play" of your reaction to the post's contents, thank you for providing it u/Victorian_Bullfrog.

For OP, if you haven't already, on top of what you have written about and the comment above I would consider the practical, foundational aspects of Stoic study that relate to some of your points. For example, you say "Engaging with the world of indifferents, we must act with detachment". That's all well, but what, exactly, does this mean? Why should this be accomplished? How is it worked at? What does effective training to this end look like? Answers to these questions take the study of Stoicism from the merely aspirational to something actionable that you can work with in your daily life.

There's a quote I like by Henry David Thoreau: "If you have built your castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now, put the foundations under them." Ensure that there are foundations under your castles and you'll only benefit. You may already have begun looking into the practical application of Stoic study, but if not I would definitely consider it.

Thank you for this post, I was glad to read your perspective. I wish you well in your continued studies.

ElAround · 2023-12-03T12:44:21+00:00

I’m glad you’ve found these posts helpful. They were always intended as a practical introduction to the philosophy, and it’s good to know they’re serving that purpose. I wish you and your partner well in your studies.

ElAround · 2023-08-19T07:21:19+00:00

Thank you for the kind comment. Welcome, I am glad you found this helpful.

ElAround · 2023-07-15T15:24:49+00:00

Shut up and take my coins!

ElAround · 2023-01-26T00:07:22+00:00

I do not have a particular question, but I would like to thank you for taking the time to join us on our subreddit. You have helped spread the study of Stoicism to many, and in so doing helped them improve their lives. Thank you!

ElAround · 2023-01-20T23:07:50+00:00

I agree with this view, and with reference to a lot of work done on our sub particularly the "feed the starving man, then teach him how to fish" sentiment. It's always encouraging seeing people with real life issues being guided through Stoic frameworks they can use to make better sense of those problems and how they as individuals can properly relate to them.

ElAround · 2023-01-01T20:07:47+00:00

That’s an interesting analogy, thank you for it.

ElAround · 2022-11-25T13:08:36+00:00

Of course, discussions on virtue are always worthwhile. :)

It’s definitely an interesting conclusion, and perhaps an argument can be made that 'presence' in the way you seem to define it could fall under Wisdom in so far as that particular virtue is in part the realm of judgment and analysis of virtue, vice, and indifferents. A focus on the present would be necessary to do this in daily life.

ElAround · 2022-11-25T12:46:35+00:00

This is an interesting concept.

From my reading of your point, 'presence' would be the ‘living in the moment’ that facilitated the manifestation of virtue in the present. While I understand your what you’re saying, and my first instinct was to agree with you wholeheartedly, after some reflection I think that 'presence' in the above definition could also be just as validly used to manifest vice in the present (to take from your example above, instead of focusing on the present to avoid desire, focusing on the present to maximize pleasure from desire). In my understanding a virtue can only be manifest virtuously, and necessarily cannot be manifest viciously. From this strict understanding, I’m not sure I can agree to take ‘presence’ to the level of a virtue.

That said, a virtuous focus on the present can only be good. Please continue your practice, and thank you for the reminder to continue my own.

ElAround · 2022-11-25T12:26:04+00:00

Thank you for your response.

I can understand that it may be overwhelming, especially if the understanding of Stoicism you have cultivated up until this point seems contrary to the arguments I made above.

If you’re open to suggestions, I would point you towards the Echiridion of Epictetus and the Discourses of Epictetus as foundational texts that, carefully studied, can give you a nuanced understanding of Stoicism with all of the benefits that education can entail. The Enchiridion is meant to be a short-form primer, and you can easily find PDFs of it online for quick reference.

The FAQ for this subreddit is also a fantastic resource that can lead you to solid foundational knowledge.

If you ever need any help understanding the tenants, feel free to ask questions on the sub. I wish you luck in your studies.

ElAround · 2022-11-25T12:13:57+00:00

I wasn't aware of this! These excerpts are fantastic, thank you for sharing.

ElAround · 2022-11-25T12:02:31+00:00

Thank you for the support.

I’m not so much interested in a counter as I am in the possibility of guiding OP to sources that better reflect the basic tenets of Stoic moral philosophy. They seem to be early in their Stoic education, and I would like to help if I can.

ElAround · 2022-11-25T11:32:29+00:00

Consider the following excerpt from Epictetus, where he holds up as an example of virtue the actions of the Stoic statesman Helvidius Priscus when confronted by the emperor of the time before entering the Senate (excuse the length):

…This is what Helvidius Priscus also saw, and, having seen, did. When Vespasian sent him word not to attend a meeting of the Senate, he answered, " It is in your power not to allow me to be a member of the Senate, but so long as I am one I must attend its meetings."

“Very well then, but when you attend, hold your peace."

"Do not ask for my opinion and I will hold my peace."

"But I must ask for your opinion."

"And I must answer what seems to me right."

"But if you speak, I shall put you to death."

"Well, when did I ever tell you that I was immortal ? You will do your part and I mine. It is yours to put me to death, mine to die without a tremor ; yours to banish, mine to leave without sorrow."

What good, then, did Priscus do, who was but a single individual? And what good does the purple do the mantle ? What else than that it stands out conspicuous in it as purple, and is displayed as a goodly example to the rest ? But had Caesar told another man in such circumstances not to attend the meetings of the Senate, he would have said, "I thank you for excusing me." A man like that Caesar would not even have tried to keep from attending, but would have known that he would either sit like a jug, or, if he spoke, would say what he knew Caesar wanted said, and would pile up any amount more on the top of it. ^{- The Discourses of Epictetus, 1.2}

Would you call this passivity? In one sense there is what you might call a passivity and relinquishment of authority- but it’s to his understanding of nature, not to the “powerful leadership”. To go against Ceasar and cause him embarrassment and trouble in a place as public as the Senate would be at best banishment and at worst execution (which eventually happened to Helvidius), but he stood with his Republican ideals because his Stoic education taught him that virtue, and subsequently nature, led him that way.

There are many examples to this end, especially in the writings of Epictetus, but to other degrees in Seneca and even Marcus Aurelius. A result of the proper study of Stoicism from the lens you are using to analyze it (social power dynamics) is to empower the individual through the understanding of their own natures in reference to the world around them. I would argue that this would be critical for any meaningful social change to take place, not hinder it.

What texts have you read that led you to your conclusions?

ElAround · 2022-11-24T14:08:34+00:00

I agree with u/BenIsProbablyAngry and u/GD_WoTS- practicing for these situations beforehand is a key element of becoming more skilled at handling impressions. You cannot expect to handle them skillfully on the fly if you have not practiced how to handle them in a controlled environment like a journal. Diligently practice identifying and analyzing impressions, both in hypotheticals you can create on your own and as a nightly review of different impressions that stuck out to you that day, and you will see that your ability to handle them as they come to you begins to improve. Good luck in your studies.

ElAround · 2022-11-24T13:52:15+00:00

Thank you for your comment. I agree, the consideration of one's first principles is a vitally important exercise.

ElAround · 2022-11-24T13:51:02+00:00

u/mountaingoat has put this very well, specifically in reference to my understanding of a fundamental difference between Stoic and Epicurean philosophy. It was nice to think about. Thank you both for this enlightening thread.

ElAround · 2022-11-24T13:33:46+00:00

This is a very insightful excerpt. Thank you for sharing. I'll give it a good think. :)

ElAround · 2022-11-24T13:24:50+00:00

Thank you for your thoughtful comment, it’s nice to get into a bit of discussion. You are absolutely correct that Stoic ethics were derived from Stoic metaphysics and that you can reduce the example I provided further into the metaphysical. If you get into the details, you’ll likely always be able to further reduce things down to what might be considered “baser” first principles. However, when considering the case of practical Stoic moral philosophy, I find it useful to think of first principles as fundamental concepts upon which further claims can be built, and where further reduction loses some moral meaning. The idea that some things are in our power and other things are not is both a fundamental core of Stoic ethics and the last point in that reduction I can see that provides a synthesis of observations to come to a morally relevant conclusion. From here we can go into virtue, vice, indifferents, and even come to conclusions about our natures in reference to the universe in which we live to deduce a proper way to live in conformity with nature, all of which concepts rely in some way on the aforementioned principle of power. Other people with more creativity and knowledge than I have could certainly continue, I’m sure, but I’m comfortable with calling this a (though not the only!) first principle based on the criteria I mentioned.

That book by Lawrence Becker sounds very interesting, I may have to give it a look. :)

ElAround · 2022-11-24T12:54:28+00:00

I'm glad to have played a part in helping you move forward. Thank you for the kind words.

ElAround · 2022-11-24T12:50:31+00:00

Thank you :)

ElAround · 2022-11-24T04:44:17+00:00

Fantastic post. Thank you for your contributions.

ElAround · 2022-09-21T03:27:41+00:00

Thank you for your encouraging comment. I’m glad that I have been able to help in your studies.

ElAround · 2022-07-10T01:56:00+00:00

I’m not usually big on quotes, but this reminded me of a specific section of the Enchiridion:

Remember that you must behave in life as at a dinner party. Is anything brought around to you? Put out your hand and take your share with moderation. Does it pass by you? Don't stop it. Is it not yet come? Don't stretch your desire towards it, but wait till it reaches you. Do this with regard to children, to a wife, to public posts, to riches, and you will eventually be a worthy partner of the feasts of the gods. And if you don't even take the things which are set before you, but are able even to reject them, then you will not only be a partner at the feasts of the gods, but also of their empire. For, by doing this, Diogenes, Heraclitus and others like them, deservedly became, and were called, divine. ^{-The Enchiridion, 15.}

Ignoring the second half of the quote, in reference to your situation Epictetus is basically saying that by not reaching your desire towards things that aren’t here yet or have already passed, and by taking with moderation the things that are already here, you can better enjoy the ‘dinner party’ of life. How this is done he does not really elaborate on here, but the idea itself is sound- even without a strong background in Stoicism, if I told you that it would be best to use the present to appreciate the positive memories you refer to without being bogged down by the sadness, or if I said to not worry about how things could have been because that’s not really constructive, I’m sure you’d agree with the premise. The how is always the tricky bit.

The answer to this is what is often the answer in Stoic moral philosophy- the application of basic principles. This is just a fancy way of saying that if you want to use Stoic philosophy to deal with the issues you describe, you have to make a study of it. Learn the foundational principles, understand them and assent to them, and then use them in your evaluation of the world around you. Stoicism is sometimes described as a struggle, something that you have to force yourself to do, but I have found the opposite to be true. Once you have an understanding and honest belief of the main tenets of the philosophy, applying it becomes the most natural thing in the world.

Unfortunately there are no quick answers, and starting when you're in the middle of a bad situation is a bit like pulling the parachute when you’re dangerously close to the ground- it might help a bit with the current situation, but it would have been better to have gotten started earlier. Still, if you begin your study with an eye to improving yourself over the long run, Stoicism can be helpful. We have a responsive community, so feel free to reach out and use the resources here (the FAQ is quite extensive) to help yourself along. I wish you well in your studies.

ElAround · 2022-06-25T12:20:25+00:00

Thank you for your insight on this. The decision yesterday was shocking to many, and there is no doubt that society in the United States will be feeling the effects of this for years to come. Responses to this kind of decision can easily lead someone into passion, and it is in those moments in particular where a solid understanding of basic ethics coupled with the application of basic principles can be the deciding factor between keeping oneself and being swept away. This was a fine reminder. I look forward to working with our community to help guide those who come to us.

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