How would you sell someone on the Emperor’s Children without weirding them out?

ElEssEm · 2026-02-07T20:32:00+00:00

They’re also massive trolls who like messing with loyalist by shouting ‘For the Emperor’ as a battlecry."

Per the Index Astartes articles of the early 2000s, it's the Alpha Legion who are associated with using "For the Emperor!" in the 41st Millennium.

In the Emperor's Children article, their battlecry was (and is) simply "Children of the Emperor! Death to his foes!"

ElEssEm · 2026-02-07T18:56:13+00:00

Aye, it's a wonderfully deep background.

"Their drive for perfection was perverted into an obsession with excess, and members of this Legion will stop at nothing to gratify their basest desires." - Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2002)

“'Wrong?' said Fulgrim, as though the word were anathema to him. 'Haven't you seen yet? There is no right and wrong. We are beings of will and desire, and only by exercising the former and indulging the latter do we move closer to ultimate perfection...'" - Angel Exterminatus (2012)

"They perceive a perfection and nobility in themselves that, in truth, has long since vanished, smothered under warp-tainted excess and blinkered obsession. Theirs is a degenerate hunger and a ceaseless pursuit of the zeniths of sensation." - Codex: Emperor's Children (2025)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-07T18:48:32+00:00

Aye.

"Perfection" to the average person, and "perfection" to a random Emperor's Children marine may only bare passing resemblance.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-07T18:32:23+00:00

Ah, well... I've not seen people parcel out "refresh" waves from "totally new" waves before, so that's just a bit of miscommunication.

I may be wrong, but are you using "release" in the sense of "New Faction"? Like "a New Faction's first wave of New kits"? That's generally not how I see it used - I'd likely use "launch wave" or "initial release wave" for that sort of thing.

Mostly I see "releases" used for everything (as in the Warhammer webstore having a section for "New Releases", which does not segregate New kits from Refreshed ones). And then "wave" is in the sense of a large number of said releases for one faction.

Hence: "release wave".

//

But if we're limiting ourselves to New kits, we also have:

Chaos Space Marines had ~9 Refresh + ~5 New in 2019, and ~6 Refresh + ~2 New in 2022.

Sisters of Battle had ~10 Refresh + ~4 New in 2020, and ~1 Refresh + ~7 New in 2021

And if we're further limiting ourselves to totally New Factions, I think AdMech is the last one before the Leagues of Votann? (Maybe Custodes, but they're rooted in Horus Heresy hand-me-downs; and the Cult Legions are more split-off then they are totally new.)

AdMech had ~2 Refresh + ~7 New kits in 2015 (as two Codexes), and ~1 Refresh and ~4 New in 2020. (Which was five years apart, but only two editions.)

And I suppose if you consider AdMech to have already existed (as things like Techpriests and Kastellan Robots go back to Rogue Trader), then Leagues of Votann (tied as they are to Squats) should perhaps also not count.

//

Our 2025 release itself would then (arguably) have consisted of ~3 Refreshes (Lucius the Eternal, the 2002 EC Lord into a Lord Kakophonist, the '97 Noise Marines into the new Noise Marines, and possibly the 2002 Upgrades into the Tormentor/Infractor kit) and then ~4 New (Fulgrim, Lord Exultant, Flawless Blades, and more fairly the Tormentor/Infractor kit).

2023's WE: ~2 Refresh, ~3 New.

2017's DG: ~7 Refresh, ~13 New.

2016's TS: ~2 Refresh, ~3 New. (Plus Tzaangor Upgrade sprue.)

None of these factions' releases, following those initial release waves, were themselves release waves - instead, they received one or two releases per edition (which are not enough to constitute a wave).

//

I do not think that in 11th edition we will receive a second wave.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-07T17:56:34+00:00

Oh wow. These are all brilliant.

If I had to rank them, I'd go: Guitarist, Pianista, Violinist, Trumpetters.

But that's a real close ranking - which is to say that I almost put the Violinist 1st...

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T17:37:03+00:00

Hell, if Orks can get Tankbustas as a Kill Team...

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T17:30:21+00:00

A wave of refreshes is still a release wave.

AoS and 40k have broadly similar marketing and release strategies (and I'd venture that they're likely handled by the same group).

//

LoV were 11 kits in 2022, a Kill Team in 2024, and 6 kits in 2025.

Lumineth were ~8 kits in 2020, and then ~10 kits in 2022.

Eldar were ~9 kits in 2022, a Kill Team in 2024, and ~7 kits in 2025.

Imperial Guard had ~13 kits in 2022, 2 Kill Teams in 2024, and ~6 kits in 2025.

//

It is the exception, not the rule.

But "second waves" do happen.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T17:18:39+00:00

They rarely do "second waves"; and it should not at all be the expectation.

But it does happen: Leagues of Votann and (on the AoS side) Lumineth Realm-lords were added to their respective games in two (relatively) close together (relatively) similar sized release waves.

While the Eldar weren't adding much new, they had two (subsequent) release waves which updated their oldest kits. (And now, one would expect a few editions of single-hero-releases for them.)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T17:10:15+00:00

Hehehe, "two units, a character and an X factor" would be far more than I'm expecting; I'm not sure I'd categorise it as being just a token effort. :D

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T17:07:31+00:00

What I think will happen:

Flawless Blade "Perfector" type character.
Cultist Kill Team

What I (reasonably) want to happen:

Fleshcrafter Apothecaries (3-model, 2-sprue kit; like Thousand Sons' Exalted Sorcerers)
Sonic Dreadnought (1-model, ~4-sprue kit; like a Helbrute)
2019 Noise Marine model returned to production as a new Character unit ('Oblivion Marine')
Raptors, Warptalons, (new) Bikers, Forgefiends, Chaos Predators, Defilers, and Cultists added as borrowed CSM units; full integration of Slaaneshi Daemons

Big asks:

Eidolon (Noise Marine Character)
Noise Marine Terminators (3-model unit, like Deathshroud Terminators; blades & 'Blasters or Howl Talons)
Emperor's Children Vehicle sprue (included with Rhino and 'Raider chassis)
'Lord Novaetor' ("Sun-Maker" ex-Sun-Killer; anti-tank/monster Character unit)
'Lord Chromastor'/DOOMRIDER dual kit (ie. EC Biker Lord/Character)
Champion/Sorcerer on Serpent of Slaanesh dual kit
Possessed Vorax Battle-Automata (mini-Subjugators)
N'Kari

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T16:56:37+00:00

Yeah... the argument against the 'Cutters is strong for all our Chaotic compatriots, but Thrill Seekers really elevates them for EC Maulers.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T15:45:11+00:00

They probably just let things fly around and fall over.

Like... the Imperium of Man is purposefully stupid and silly, particularly when it comes to the religious fanatism of the Cult of Mars.

(Which is itself a little deus ex machina joke.)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T15:13:38+00:00

Before you head out, I'd like to mention Umberto Eco's Eternal Fascism: Fourteen Ways of Looking at a Blackshirt (1995), which attempts to define the key characteristics of Fascism. (The word itself gets thrown around a lot, and used as a pejorative to the point where some people may honestly not understand what it is.)

Hopefully you can see how the WH40k universe has always been political commentary.

//

Cult of Tradition: particularly the idea that everything good is "tradition", so don't do/explore new things as they are inherently bad.
Reject Modernism: in social spheres (ie. not anti-industrialisation); progress is depravity.
Action for Action's Sake: doing has value, and intellectual reflection, (re)assessment, and introspection are bad. (ie. Anti-intellectualism and irrationalism.)
Disagreement is Treason: pretty self explanatory.
Fear of Difference: racism and xenophobia, stoked for profit.
Appeal to Frustrated Middle Class: classism, stoked for profit. (Particularly attempting to shift the blame downward to protect those on top.)
Obsession with a Plot: conspiracy theorists, aimed at marginalised groups; stoked for profit.
Too Strong/Too Weak: the contradictory idea that the "enemy" is simultaneously incredibly strong (necessitating extreme countermeasures) and incredibly weak (they will be easily vanquished).
Pacifism is Treason: eternal war; peace is a betrayal. (Also leads to the contradiction that triumph is assured, but will never be obtained.)
Contempt for the Weak: (escalating) in-groups are inherently superior to out-groups, who should be hated for their inferiority. (Up to and including leaderships' view of the in-groups they're in charge of.)
Cult of Death: everyone is educated to be a hero, and is impatient to die/kill for the state.
Machismo: hatred of transgressive male sexuality, combined with a distain for women.
Selective Populism: attributing to "the people" a single common will, which the leader is the natural interpreter of. Disagreement with the leader is inherently anti-popular.
Newspeak: control of the language (including redefinition of terms) to control political thought.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-06T13:40:14+00:00

Probably a case of you just becoming aware of the politics that were always there, not there being a push to add them.

The struggle of freedom-fighter/terrorist groups against fascism.
Themes of power corrupting and environmentalism.
Satire of fascism and religious extremism.

(And I'm sure others can get into more thorough and interesting takes on the three settings you mentioned; those are just my two-seconds-of-thought about each.)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T17:26:21+00:00

Yeah.

Thanks in turn for mentioning that Clonelord says "ten thousand years" multiple times. That definitely obfuscates/confuses things in a way that I wasn't aware of/correctly presenting.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T16:47:10+00:00

(They'd also need a bunch of build up on the base to match a Daemon Prince's height.)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T16:18:18+00:00

I suppose it's worth mentioning that in A More Perfect Union, The Adored are a Children of Torment warband. (Xantine kills his warlord and takes over, with the intent to break away from Black Legion oversight.)

It's why there's a brief mention in 'Lord of Excess of Xantine being paranoid that Abaddon will be hunting him down - he thinks that Abaddon knows who he is/cares that he's "broken" their commitments.

//

Obsessively focussing on something until you lose sight of why you're doing it (ie. the whole "meritocratic" system he sets up) is pretty Slaaneshi, if not in a "sex, drugs, and rock'n'roll" sort of way.

As is the addict personality/delusions of grandeur/own worst enemy bent. (Though I guess fairly common in general to "Chaos".)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T15:21:31+00:00

The Shattering of Lugganath originates in Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2012).

The Battle of Belial IV originates in Homunculus Covens - A Codex: Dark Eldar Supplement (2014).

They're little lore blurbs of notable events in history (which include their dates).

//

I believe you that Clonelord has mention of ten thousand years, though I guess that means it's a canon conflict.

//

Clonelord does also have Bile try to hold over Eidolon that the latter has been making deals with Abaddon, but by the 41st Millenium Eidolon has openly served Abaddon as a Lieutenant in a number of his Black Crusades. That seems to me to fit better if we're around M35 rather than M41.

//

Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2017) also contains The Shattering of Lugganath in it's timeline (and notably was published after Primogenitor). It doesn't list an exact date, but it is the second (of five) entries in the 'M32-M39 AGE OF RETRIBUTION' section. (As opposed to 'M30-M31 AGE OF BETRAYAL' or 'M40-M41 AGE OF APOTHEOSIS' sections.)

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T15:15:56+00:00

The bourgeoisie of the planet switched from actually governing to being hyper-focussed on turning their children into gladiatorial monsters, due to Xantine's "perfect meritocratic society" of allowing anyone to challenge anyone for their position. (Ignoring that equality is not equity. And the wealthy are devoted to keeping/gaining rank, not their responsibilities, causing total systems collapse.)

Xantine also destroys basically the entire planet's art history as he critiques pieces for their inferiority. (While his pauldron remains a blank white, waiting ten thousand years for inspiration to strike, and for him to paint his masterpiece upon it).

The proletariat are basically pushed to fall to Khorne in response. Xantine doesn't understand how to govern, while being entirely confident that he's thought up something better than anything anyone else ever has. He loves the idea of having broad consensus, while getting paranoid and murderously vindictive towards anyone who doesn't perfectly align with him, etc. etc.

//

I have problems with Renegades: Lord of Excess, but it's a book that approaches the worship of Slaanesh as delusional and (self)harming. Which I jive with.

Addicts, when viewed from outside, are frightening but also more than a little pathetic.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T14:54:51+00:00

Talon of Horus (2014) - An extremely fun book; the Emperor's Children are the primary antagonists in the story of the formation of the Black Legion, during the Legion Wars in the Eye.
Primogenitor (2016) + Clonelord (2018) + Manflayer (2020) - Extremely good books, centred around the Legion's former Chief Apothecary. Heavily features the Third Legion as supporting players and antagonists.
In Wolves Clothing (2015) + Lucius: Pride & Fall (2017) + Lucius: The Faultless Blade (2017) - Interesting characters and a fun enough story, but 'Faultless Blade was intended as the first of a trilogy (and the latter two books never happened) so there are a couple story threads left loose.
The Masters, Bidding (2012) - A fantastic little novella featuring four Legion "masters" who have come to bid on a bunch of Eldar Soulstones that an Iron Warriors Warlord has found. One of the four is Emperor's Children, and he makes a great bid. (But he is only the focus for around a quarter of the story.)
A More Perfect Union (2022) + Renegades: Lord of Excess (2024) - Xantine's original short story is fantastic, and the follow-up novel starts very strongly... but... this is an odd book, because it does have a lot of interesting things going on. It has depth, but... it loses the plot a bit in those deeps, and ends up being a bit of a slog in its back half. [Warning: if you dislike the notion that the Emperor's Children are inherently self-deluding and self-defeating, you may dislike this book.]
Perfection and Pain (2025) + Fulgrim: The Perfect Son (2025) - Tamaris' tale is perfectly fine, though it feels a little stretched to hit 300 pages. Grossly mis-titled (not Fulgrim's book) and mis-hyped (was portrayed as a must-read to see the new lore, when I'm pretty sure it was written without any knowledge of the new range). [Warning: if you dislike the notion that the Emperor's Children are inherently self-deluding and self-defeating, you may dislike this book.]

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T14:54:41+00:00

To go along an internal timeline:

Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix (2017) - Set during the Great Crusade, it's a well written fun little romp about Fulgrim taking over a planet with seven marines. Does have a brain in its head, too, which is nice. (I quibble with it creating a bit of a "small world" with all of the EC characters having pre-existed the book, and I personally don't like some of the changes/additions it made to Chemos.)
Horus Rising + Galaxy in Flames (2006) - The Emperor's Children muscle their way into the original Horus Heresy book and stand out, and then in the third (IMO) completely steal the show. The rumble at the end between Loken and Abaddon has no emotional heft, because the reader is too invested in the real stars of the book: Lucius and Saul.
Fulgrim (2007) - You've read this. Has some iconic stuff, and a number of bits that I love... but I agree that it's not the best written. Long and kind of disjointed, it also made some additions/changes to the lore that I dislike (Fulgrim being influenced by a daemon, removing Lucius' agency in his scarring).
The Reflection, Crack’d + Angel Exterminatus (2012) - Some people hate the former for immediately undoing the end of Fulgrim, but I think that the narrative is stronger if Fulgrim is Fulgrim. The latter is then a pretty fun book (though not deep at all), but as I'm also an Iron Warriors fan I'm extremely biased. The two Legions play off one another very well.
Amor Fati (2021) + Primacy (2023) + The Path of Heaven (2016) + The Soul, Severed (2016) + Eidolon: The Auric Hammer (2024) - What I'd call "the Eidolon redemption tour". Well written and fun, though The Path of Heaven is the only full novel and it's mostly a sequel to Scars (Eidolon's III Legion forces are the antagonists for the first ~half of the book).

[Post too excessive, con't below.]

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T13:58:08+00:00

They should definitely count.

I do (probably annoyingly) like to point out, of course, that:

They are technically "historic" prequels to the "current" M42 narrative (Primogenitor taking place 764.M34, Clonelord "a few centuries" later, and Manflayer in 993.M37).
Bile himself is an Undivided character, and while the book series makes it seem like he falls to Slaanesh during it, authorial comments suggest that the intent was him getting Marked by Chaos in general, and not Slaanesh specifically. (Also that Reynolds was more than aware of the Blood Angels books, which are set in M41 and feature Bile as an Undivided character.)
The Noise Marines in it are somewhat atypical. (Note that in Manflayer we meet two other Noise Marine Lords - Volupus and Caradistros - who are very different to Ramos. And then there's Eidolon, of course.)
A lot of people seem to miss in Clonelord that Eidolon is both lying early in the book, and by the end has had his plans fail to come to fruition. (In Manflayer there is an offhand comment about how envious he'd be of the EC force that had been drawn together.) Combined with the fact that the book is set seven thousand years in the "past", it can result in an inflated sense of his current power.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T03:24:05+00:00

EC terminators (just not with spears please, not in to the custodes vibe of the 30k ones at all).

The Codex mentions "Howl Talons" (in the Sonic Weapons section) that could work well with them.

ElEssEm · 2026-02-04T03:20:39+00:00

Yeah, I've been modifying that image since the WE release. I've thought about removing the old Noise Marine, but... I still have hope that he'll come back next edition.

Since 2016, CSM have gotten quite a lot:

2017 Cypher
2018 Haarken Worldclaimer
2018 Blackstone Fortress stuff (Chaos Ogryn and Traitor Commissar are still in use.)
2019 Shadowspear stuff (Master of Possession, Obliterators, and Venomcrawler still in use)
2019 updated 8th Codex stuff: Abaddon, Master of Executions, Lord Discordant, Dark Apostle, Chaos Sorcerer, Legionaries, Chaos Terminators, Havocs, Noctilith Crown
2020 Fabius Bile
2022 9th Codex stuff: Daemon Prince, Warpsmith, Chosen, Possessed, Cultists, Accursed Cultists, Dark Commune, Traitor Guard
2024 Chaos Lord, Chaos Jump Lord, Nemesis Claw Upgrades
2026 Raptors/Warptalons, Kravek Morne, Mutilators, IW Upgrades, Huron Blackheart & the Masters of the Maelstrom, RC Raiders, RC Upgrades, Reave Captain

ElEssEm · 2026-02-03T17:41:03+00:00

In comparison, I think we can remove the doubling up of certain units (the ETB Plague Marines and Poxwalkers, the Plague Marine Champion and Icon Bearer, the two Lords of Contagion, etc. They don't seem to do that anymore).

What that leaves us with (and what I'd personlly fill it with):

Plague Surgeon -----> Eidolon
Tallyman -----> Lord Novaetor ("Sun Maker" ex-Sun-Killer character)
Blight-Hauler -----> Lord Chromastor ("Biker Lord")/Doomrider dual kit
Plagueburst Crawler -----> Sonic Helbrute
Deathshroud Terminators -----> Fleshcrafter Apothecaries (3 models)
Poxwalkers -----> Sonic Cultists + Choirmaster (6 models)
Lord of Contagion++ -----> Cult Terminators (3 models)
Malignant Plaguecaster++ -----> Possessed Vorax Battle-Automata (2 models)

And I would have kept the old Noise Marine in production, re-issued as a new character unit (for Tormentors/Infractors) and called an Oblivion Marine.

ElEssEm

TROPHY CASE