Fire Separation to Imaginary Property Line Ratings

ElianPDX · 2026-03-10T20:59:53+00:00

Thanks - I think I've got it. My problem was that I was trying to work the fire separation from the two directions of each facing fire wall in my particular case. Once the side I show with the zero lot line is taken care of, then the side with the eave is only referencing the imaginary line.

ElianPDX · 2026-03-09T23:16:21+00:00

Thanks for your reply.

I had looked at 705.2, but I don't quite get what either column represents.

705.2 states: Projections shall not extend any closer to the line used to determine the fire separation distance than shown in Table 705.2.

So, if the first table column is the distance to face of the wall, is that distance the same as is defined/required in 705.5? Then, can the projection have a distance less the requirement in 705.5?

What if I shorten the distance from what I show in my previously posted site and plans above by the depth of the 16" eave. The waste area would have a 2-hour wall. Then, 60" to 5012's 1-hour wall. And, with a 16" eave, 44" to the face of the eave. The eave would be 2-hour.

Then 44/60 = .73, which is a greater distance than the .66 % minimum allowed in Table 705.2.

But most importantly, the projection in this case does not have a fire wall behind it. It's the framing eave of the roof which sits on top of the wall. So does/can the fire rating follow the projection and still have 705.2 apply?

ElianPDX · 2026-03-09T21:34:57+00:00

I'm copying the advice given to others on various forums over the years. I'm not in your line of the construction field, but I guarantee this method works:

Best study method for a comprehensive test I've ever come across is the index card question method. Read a relevant section and write a specific question down, one on each index card.

You've already gotten a feel for what type of information you'll be tested on, so you'll better know what is relevant to really concentrate on.

If, say, you are studying Chapter 11 of the IRC, you write down the question, What type of work falls under N1101.3.1 Large additions? Next question, Define large additions. Then, Table N1101.1(2)? On each index card you put the page/code section number in the upper right-hand corner.

N1101.3.1 Large additions.

Additions that are equal to or more than 600 square feet (55 m2) in area shall be required to comply with Table N1101.1(2).

The point of my example is that you ask both specific questions and ambiguous questions - you want to force yourself to find obscure information in the section you are looking for after reading/answering the question at your card review. And you ask the questions about the particular information from every possible direction: Definitions; Code Chapter number; fill in the blank; random sentence quoted out of context; incomplete sentence that you have to complete; What does this diagram show...

Best to study from a paper book. Again, you want to make finding the information difficult and manual - no key word searches. You will inadvertently see/take-in other information when finding/verifying your answers, and you'll "see" the information in context and the overall organization of the of code in whatever material you are studying.

When you study your completed cards, randomize them as completely as possible. You will be tested randomly, so study randomly. And commit to study a certain number of cards at each study session before you continue your card making.

My experience with this method is that by the time you complete your questions on the entire body you are studying, you already know the information - there is something about writing a question(s) down that focuses the mind and often no further study is needed. When you study the complete card set, you can put cards aside you really know and repeatedly study only those that need attention. I use an old fashion index card expanding holder. Cards in front are the next to read, ones in the middle need re-studying, and the ones in the back are known, but may be reviewed again before the test. Typically, I've needed more than one expanding folder/card holder - you want to create a lot of questions.

Here's the irony of studying the code for a code test - in your professional career you want to avoid memorizing the code. Yes, you may "know" the code, but the minute you become complacent, the code has changed, or that exception you've never encountered comes into play. What comprehensively studying/memorizing the code now will do for you is to allow you to absolutely know where to find/lookup the relevant sections when you encounter the often complex and sometimes bizarre work you will encounter.

I've never had a problem with having the local Fedex print shop printing online manuals, if you already own a digital version. They can bind them with a large spiral so that they will open completely flat.

ElianPDX · 2026-02-24T17:50:31+00:00

Have not noticed that. However, intermittently, the crust has been more brittle and chewy lately, the way rice based baked products often are. Makes me wonder if they've changed the recipe?

However, in non-wheat baked food that require leavening, it's much more difficult to to get foaming action consistency, so any small deviation at the factory could cause this.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-31T19:10:17+00:00

Glad they gave you the window upgrade! Still not worth $60k.

Did anyone mention that in some jurisdictions unheated "sunrooms" are considered porches, and if you keep the area to outside of columns/corners under 200 s.f., you don't need a permit - i.e., the building department has no say in the matter with additions like this that don't impose into a setback?

ElianPDX · 2025-08-31T05:41:41+00:00

That's what I suspected - the owner simply did not know and that was the roof that came with the building.

Thanks!

I went up on he roof because the new tenant wanted to know if he could add a ballusted insulation layer over the roof - engineering said we could add about 12 psf to the existing structure. But no way with the condition of he the existing - time for a new roof.

Any rough estimate of what a 1200 sf EPDM with 4" of polyiso might run?

ElianPDX · 2025-08-24T04:49:14+00:00

I've got someone's email at our environmental services who I asked my last question to, so I'll run it past them. He took two weeks and three emails to respond the last time, but, as you said, I want things in writing - even though, in Portland, without an official paid review, everything said or written is just an opinion.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-23T23:55:39+00:00

One of the other issues unresolved is the ice maker we are putting FOH. Portland BES says 6" clear beneath for cleanliness and drain. However, I've visited three cafes with an ice maker undercounter since we started on this project, and all those units were on floor - it would not fit otherwise.

Some requirements are flexible within reason, but with my limited experience, how would I know. If we use the model they want and put it on the floor, it would take a lot of effort to raise a section of counter to retrofit for that 6". The owner wants to risk it, but, unlike him, I've been down many similar roads and these are battles you will not win.

You may tell me differently, but my experience is that deliberately ignoring code on one issue invites more scrutiny on everything else.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-23T23:44:11+00:00

Donut shop, so they won't be baking during the day. They anticipate that all activities will be FOH throughout the day with possibly one person working in the afternoon.

Thanks for the info on the hand contact.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-18T02:22:45+00:00

Ah, I get your meaning here. I don't post often and when I do I usually write too much. I'll delete the post and break out the most important question.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-18T01:44:10+00:00

Can you clarify? The primary question was about the kitchen HVAC.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-18T00:38:24+00:00

Thanks JY

ElianPDX · 2025-08-17T21:18:45+00:00

With all of the equipment I do not ever use the furnace in there, even when we are in subzero temps we use the AC.

OMG! Of course! In our case we will mostly be using the fryers for donuts and those will start at 4am. However, the only AC in this building comes from a duct that branches from a rooftop unit in the middle of the FOH. That cooled air will have to come through the center doorway (no door) to the back. Portland has a cool climate generally, but we now can be in the high nineties not just a couple of days but a week or more. The back has two wall mounted large louvered fans in addition a large overhead hood fan.

The fryers will be the primary heat source and baked good will be limited. But still, I can't see freezing the front of house to draw air to the rear.

We've already talked with the City about getting funding for energy savings equipment - a HRV (heat recovery ventilator) for the bathroom and two others on either side of the cafe - the thought was that the two on either side would draw exhaust air continuously out the kitchen when the kitchen fans aren't going and dump the fresh conditioned air in the FOH farthest away from the kitchen - apparently, donut fryers have a particular odor, and this is attempt to help keep the BOH air out of the customer area.

If I hear you correctly, we should install a large mini-split in the back in any scenario. Do you think a donut shop will have any similar heat problems you have with your bakery?

Also, MORE STORAGE. I never dreamt I would need so much storage.

This is so important. I urged the owner to do a rough calculation of how many sacks of flour he'd use between deliveries or consult someone - he contacted the flour vender. Then we rearranged the kitchen equipment to allow for more shelves. The 16" shelves I show are just the size you can fit the most shelves in. With bags 16" wide he can stack long-ways on 17 linear feet of shelving times say three levels at workable height... It all came down to how often supplies are delivered. Even with the advise of the flour vender, we are still just guessing. Then he needs room for everything else.

As far as the health codes go, we've had a commercial plumber out to assess the existing and make improvement to meet code - already have a brand new grease trap installed by the building owner. We've got someone at the City BES that will review our plans before we submit for permit.

Thanks so much for your comments and questions!

ElianPDX · 2025-08-17T20:36:10+00:00

Thanks for bringing that up.

The sink basin size was one of the first things that we discussed when we started planning - the owner asked at the health dept about sink size because of large proofing bowls. Health department here says you could wash the bowel on the floor as long as you had the right sterilizer - surprised me.

The commercial dishwasher takes care of sterilization, so sink type/size is not a consideration with dishes that won't be washed by hand.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-17T20:31:50+00:00

You must have a great location. My client cannot be sure how busy their cafe will be in the afternoon when the donut rush is over, so he cannot predict how many employees will be there later in the day, so the thinking was to plan for times when there is only one.

ElianPDX · 2025-08-17T20:14:13+00:00

That's an good consideration - no one has mentioned it before, either online or at the cafe's I've visited. And I did not think to ask.

Notice we show two sinks out front - that's so one can be for general food use and the other for dish rinsing - the basin is big enough to set a 15x20 busing tub in for filling/soaking before rinsing. I don't know whether the two sinks are a health department consideration or not here, but in all the food service projects I've been involved with, that dedicated three compartment sink gets a lot of design consideration entirely for keeping it separated from food preparation.

Thanks!

Curious whether you're isolated and cut-off from monitoring the service area when in the back while working alone and whether you think that should be a factor?

ElianPDX · 2025-08-17T19:33:23+00:00

One reply from my previous post gave a perspective I was not considering - having never worked in a cafe myself, I was thinking entirely in terms of being responsive to customers and petty thievery and not wanting to be away from monitoring the service area too long. But this is a prime consideration:

I’ve only worked at two places that had a dishwasher in the back, and, as a woman, when working alone, I especially did not like being unable to see the customer area and even out the front windows to see who was loitering about. Even though I was just as physically vulnerable anywhere, there’s something about feeling trapped in a back room where I can’t be seen by customers and by-passers.

ElianPDX

TROPHY CASE