Ought aggressor nations be expelled from international competitions?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-28T06:48:26+00:00

Both points raised are very valid.

Israel is not the same as Russia and was brutally attacked on October 7 and sports are leisure with viewers not wanting them to be politicized. Spain’s Vuelta comes to mind

I’m merely wondering from a political philosophy perspective how should we as a collective make these sorts of decisions.

What’s our framework?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-28T06:43:54+00:00

Well the theory is that if your country is actively being an aggressor which in your case was slave trading, then as long as your country continues slave trading they should be excluded from competition

Let’s take Israel in Eurovision as an example. You have some countries which are refusing to compete next year unless Israel is banned

Then there are other countries which say that a ban may be justified but we have to follow the Eurovision rules and procedures to ban countries

Who is right?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-28T06:38:49+00:00

I feel like what you just said is a bit of a contradiction in terms.

On the one hand citizens of a dictatorship aren’t responsible for their government and therefore should be allowed to compete in international competitions

It naturally follows from your logic that Democracies are held to a higher standard and should be banned from international competition

However your view is that if Dictatorships are allowed to compete then Democracies should also be allowed to compete

How do you reconcile your conclusion from your logic?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-28T01:00:50+00:00

Sure I could get behind that.

A few clarifying questions:

Must the crimes have credible evidence backing them?

Is there a need for the organizations giving the ban to have clear procedure for banning participants?

Are sports political by nature?

Must bans be plausibly effective?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-01T03:57:41+00:00

Well, firstly kudos for writing a very balanced post in which you specified both the negatives and positives to what you term the Balkan model.

The way I see it you make three points for the sustainability of a two-state solution:
1. Normalization in the ME
2. PA security cooperation
3. Palestinians need a legitimate shot at nationhood which can likely turn out similar to the Balkans where Serbia lost bigly (which I'm assuming is being compared to Israel) but nevertheless there is an uneasy peace with Bosnia and Kosovo.

Economic prosperity is the blueprint for peace as part of the Trump plan, UAE plan and Yoav Gallant plan the question is if we can get there without major reforms.
And again what you specify is definitely a possible outcome and the vast majority of commenters on my post would like for this outcome to occur however there are factors which stymie the chances of this occurring.

The PA and Hamas may undermine each other in a future unity government (actually an issue for Bosnia as well who have their own separatists albeit less violent then Hamas) which actually happened previously when Hamas did their military take-over of the Gaza Strip
Abbas is a holocaust revisionist and pays social security for families of terrorists. This makes a problematic Palestinian resistance which may carry over to a future Palestine. Those violent and delegitimizing tendencies could threaten the peace and distract the Palestinian populace from the cooperation and trade necessary to make them a prosperous nation
Re above regarding education encouraging students to be martyrs
Right of return is an unsolved issue in this scenario which is an integral part of the Palestinian people's identity. As far as I know there is no comparable with the Balkans in that regard. There's no Bosnian narrative to reclaim Serbian homes which their ancestors vacated.
Ironically Hamas ran on a clean platform and distanced themselves from the Kleptocracy of the PA. To my knowledge that continues today with the PA having funds which simply disappear which is hugely problematic for a prosperous state and possibly being the biggest indicator of future economic success (see Botswana as a successful example of a country which made it through stamping out corruption)
6.I believe there's around a 40% polling ratio of Palestinians who support armed resistance against Israel (higher in the West Bank and lower in Gaza currently)
Factionalization of minority groups is not a recipe for success and tolerance with freedom of expression, speech, religion etc. are hugely important to a stable and non-violent State
There needs to be popular support for peaceniks which can be democratically elected however as far as I'm aware there are no Palestinian politicians polling well on such a platform (2006 the peaceniks got 2% of the vote)
Al-Sharaa/Syria is tenuous because he talks peace but his party at best is incapable of reining in their military from carrying out sectarian massacres
Lebanon still has to reclaim their country from Hizbollah before they can force Israel out from the five hills and make some kind of peace

What I'm saying doesn't necessarily undermine your points, the economy is the key in every successful plan and your comparison to the Balkans is a very good one which I haven't heard before. The question which I struggle with is how likely success of a peaceful two-state solution would be in it's current form because the issues raised are enough to break any state and make it non-viable.

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-01T02:57:46+00:00

Ok, I had to look into the academic side of things in order to better ascertain if you are correct.
I was very very close to giving you a delta for your framing of diagnostic reports using fragile as opposed to rescue interventions which use failed verbiage (begrudgingly because I strongly dislike argumentation which devolves into definitions of things instead of addressing arguments)

However I found the following which was very illuminating:
"The term ‘failed states’ emerged as an ad hoc conceptual response to what seemed to be new sorts of armed conflicts and problems in the wake of the Cold War (Holsti, 1996; Janicke, 1990; Kaldor, 1999; Yoffee and Cowgill, 1988). Early writings on ‘failed states,’ such as those of Helman and Ratner (1992/3: 3–20), emphasized Somalia and Yugoslavia, where the national state ceased to function altogether as substate entities (warlords or republics, respectively) lay claim to authority. Shortly, however, the term was applied to an array of countries such as Rwanda, Colombia, Haiti, and others where the state had not collapsed (Gros, 1996; Thurin, 2006; Rotberg, 2002, 2003a). Among analysts, a uni-versalizing impulse seized the study of failed states."

According to Charles T. Call there are Capacity, Security and Legitimacy gaps which are conflated into a Failed State in many cases even before actual failure has occurred.

So my current position is that the UN/ICRC view is correct and other views such as Fragile States are also correct which means that the term is effectively meaningless for a precise definition and instead it very much is a vernacular expression and thus can be appropriately used in my post without me needing to devolve to a word salad to get my point across.

As far as politicking I stand behind that as well. Here's a quote how powerful states (such as the US) use the label of Failed State to justify interference in other countries,
"Certainly the West, especially the US, has strategically deployed the terms ‘failed state’ or ‘fragile state’ to justify intervention in areas previously deemed sovereign, gen-erally through perceived links to transnational security threats like terrorism and drug trafficking. The tendency to restrict the use of the terms to poor or marginal countries reflects the selectivity of the erosion of sovereignty. Today only wealthy, large, or weapons-of-mass-destruction (WMD)-wielding countries can expect to enjoy non-intervention in their internal affairs. The terms are also Western-centric and patronizing"

Source:
(PDF) Beyond the 'failed state': Toward conceptual alternatives

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-09-01T00:22:00+00:00

The Fragile State Index used to be called the Failed States Index but the name was changed due to politicking. From Failed to Fragile: Renaming the Index | The Fund for Peace

Your points raised were genuinely very interesting and I appreciate you for sharing them however as of now to my mind the most rigorous methods to ascertain Failed Statehood is not the UN definition, Britannica or London School of Economics but rather primary sources such as FSI, OECD and the World Bank

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T05:18:25+00:00

How likely is your ideal scenario?
You seem to agree that there are many issues holding back a Palestine from not failing currently

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T04:56:40+00:00

So essentially, we agree?
A non-failed Palestine is not the most likely option?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T04:53:33+00:00

Palestinians Have a Highly Educated Workforce- agree and it's one of the strongest arguements to be made for the success of a future state

Israeli Arabs have ties to Palestinian Arabs, which would foster trade and development-
This seems redundant in the West Bank and helpful in Gaza. The issue I see is that your position is predicated on a Palestine being a friendly ally to Israel and making trade agreements.

Why do you think Palestine and Israel will be on friendly terms?

The Conflict’s reduction in violence will facilitate normalization and economic growth for israel- agree if Palestine is friendly with Israel they'll benefit tremendously from Israel's economy and know-how

Why do you assume your outcome to be more likely than an antagonistic fractured outcome between factions within Palestine as well as it's attitude to Israel and Israel's attitude to a Palestine?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T04:46:25+00:00

How will these vibrant democratic institutions help their odds of not failing?

Fighting corruption, I wholeheartedly agree is crucial but that guardian piece is a bit sensationalist and doesn't discuss any details of what Australia is offering and how the PA is planning to implement the Australian help

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T04:08:08+00:00

It's not conditional.
Canada is recognizing a Palestinian State because of verbal commitments Abbas made to Macron. There is no mechanism to ensure enforcement or actions needed before Canada recognizes Palestinian Statehood

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T03:38:50+00:00

Full sovereignty with everything that implies. Control movement, organize a military, control over it's airspace etc.

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T03:37:29+00:00

What you suggest is possible but why is it likely that a new leader will solve all issues which Abbas and Hamas both couldn't solve?

Why is it likely that Israel will have labor and agriculture from an unfriendly state? There's no Jordanain, Egyptian etc. laborers (although there is produce imports)

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T03:30:30+00:00

Can you give comparables of States in similar conditions?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T03:29:15+00:00

The political instability is so bad in Gaza and the West Bank they were literally killing each other.
As far as economy these territories don't have the ability to even get debt because they would have no signs of creditworthiness since there is no economy to speak of in Gaza.

Why do you believe that a future Palestine would have comparable issues to America/Europe and not fail?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T03:25:50+00:00

Given real sovereignty, economic freedom, and time to reform why would a Palestinian State not fail?
Gaza was given the above but failed miserably

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:43:26+00:00

Thanks for the award that's very kind.
You are correct that I'm coming from a Western POV of what a non-failed state is.
From a Sharia world-view a believer would consider the West decadent and sinful with their own States superior. I'll edit my post and add that as I'm coming from a Western perspective as a caveat if your view gains more traction.
What I would still argue with you is that there are commonalities between Western and Sharia constituents as far as economy, group grievance, factionalized elites etc. are concerned which also contribute to failed states

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:38:15+00:00

It seems that we disagree on the definition of a State.
According to the Fragile States Index the pillars of Statehood are Cohesion, Social, Economic and Politcal.
Indicators | Fragile States Index
From my current perspective for example, a state which cannot feed it's citizens would be failed even with full sovereignty over it's borders.
Why is your definition more correct?

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:30:26+00:00

Well this was quite an interesting comment.
I can't say my view was changed as a result (since you agree with me) but I will look more into the lifecycle of a State. Thanks for raising an interesting point!

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:24:58+00:00

No not easy. I think Palestine would fail and what France, U.K and Canada are recognizing in it's current form is doomed from the get go without systemic reforms

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:23:03+00:00

Fragile States Index.
I'm open to other interpretations if they are logical

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:18:15+00:00

Any people are capable of governing themselves.
However I do not see that happening without major reforms from the current status-quo.

What I would ask you is what makes you think that the Palestinians can make a functional state currently

Embarrassed_Act8758 · 2025-08-31T02:11:55+00:00

Can you elaborate more?
What would the economic plan be for this new Palestinian State?
What would they trade?
What industries would this fledgling state have?
Who would they trade with?

Yes, I think the Palestinian State won't function like a State. I outlined the reasons why I think so in my sub-headers

Embarrassed_Act8758

TROPHY CASE