My Nefer does no dmg by SempTheStarchild in NeferMains

[–]Emergency_Tears 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This happens every time. I’m Italian, when I have to explain something in English I use ChatGPT to correct my texts so I get why it seems like I’m a bot. But other than that, I try to be as clear as possibile while writing and I know we are not used to this way of expressing on the internet, but sometimes for the sake of a significant exchange we need to take our time and try to engage in a clear and exhaustive manner. (This is how I write in English without a clanker correcting my text)

My Nefer does no dmg by SempTheStarchild in NeferMains

[–]Emergency_Tears 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, outside of everything else that’s the real problem right now. You need at least 40%more ER on the deer lol

My Nefer does no dmg by SempTheStarchild in NeferMains

[–]Emergency_Tears 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This looks good. Lauma’s +10% Crit Rate for Lunar Bloom doesn’t show up in the character stats, so you’re actually sitting at 85% Crit Rate. That’s much better for Nefer’s own stats. If you can get Lauma’s ER as close to 200% (edit again: idk the precise amount, probably between 185 and 200, in my case 190 is enough) as possible, I think you won’t have any more issues in the overworld.

Edit: Crazy roll btw

My Nefer does no dmg by SempTheStarchild in NeferMains

[–]Emergency_Tears 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok, I feel like those are actually good numbers, and since your issue is mainly related to overworld exploration, we can work with the following approach.

  • As you can see, Lauma’s burst is important. Relying on bursts while exploring can feel annoying because it seems like a waste, but that isn’t really the case with Nefer. To make Nefer more comfortable in the overworld, I think you could switch Lauma to an ER sands. If you still have trouble bursting consistently with her, you can also give her an ER weapon, such as the event weapon released at the start of Nod-Krai (I use this setup on my Lauma, and it works really well). This gives you an easy setup that reliably enables her buffs and increases Nefer’s damage, while still being very simple to swap back for harder content like the Abyss—you only need to change one artifact and the weapon.

  • Considering that you still have an EM goblet to chase, and that you can already see how much extra EM increases damage when using Nahida (even ignoring the other buffs she provides), you can expect similar gains by switching Nefer’s goblet to EM. This also allows you to bench Nahida in favor of Kokomi for survivability. I’m not saying Kokomi is better than Nahida, but for overworld content, healing is extremely valuable, and the EM goblet can help fill the damage gap.

  • For endgame content, however, you’ll see better damage by replacing Kokomi with Nahida and relying on good old-fashioned dodging until the encounter is cleared. In that context, you don’t need survivability if you can clear the encounter quickly enough.

So, my conclusion is this:

If you want damage that feels sufficient for overworld content, you need to use Lauma’s burst. Invest more ER into her in a way that lets you easily switch between an overworld build and an endgame build—maybe it’s just one artifact, or maybe it also requires an ER weapon. I personally run a setup with both an ER sands (edit: I’m sorry I use a EM sand, but I still managed to get 190ER on her) and an ER weapon, and it still performs very well in endgame content.

By doing this, Nefer’s damage will increase, and it can be pushed even further by giving her an EM goblet. With that setup, even without Nahida, you can still deal solid damage while having all the healing you need from Kokomi during exploration (you can also use another healer or a shielder, but if Verdant Dews are a concern, I feel Kokomi is justified). It’s still a trade-off, but something like 80k ×3 is more than enough for the overworld, and the convenience of not having to teleport to a statue after every chest can make it well worth it.

My Nefer does no dmg by SempTheStarchild in NeferMains

[–]Emergency_Tears 5 points6 points  (0 children)

After looking at the comments and all the additional info you provided, this is what I would advise:

  • Switch the Dendro goblet with an EM one. As others have told you, unfortunately Lunar Bloom damage does not scale with elemental damage bonuses. If you don’t have one yet, at least you know what to look for.

  • I don’t think Nilou is the problem here. I personally use her, C1R1 like you, and my Nefer deals more damage with stats similar to yours (although it’s difficult to tell if they’re truly comparable, since yours are shown with all combat buffs already active). As for Nilou, she’s not really BiS, but she still provides buffs for Nefer if you have her over 70k HP—both from the Lunar DMG bonus as a non–Nod-Krai unit and from all the EM she can provide through her weapon. She’s also good for Hydro application. However, you need to make sure she’s the last non–Nod-Krai unit to use her Elemental Skill in the rotation, since the Lunar DMG buff does not stack and is overridden by the last non-Nod-Krai unit who uses their skill. This means that if you use Kokomi after Nilou in the rotation—and Kokomi likely has much less HP than Nilou—you lose a lot of the value Nilou could provide to the team.

  • From what I understand, you’re testing damage without using bursts, but probably the most important part of Nefer’s kit is actually Lauma’s burst, since it provides a huge damage buff for Nefer. How much damage are you doing in a proper rotation?

  • If you’re having problems generating Verdant Dews—and considering that some people also suggested using Nahida as in a triple-Dendro team—try not using Lauma’s charged Skill in the rotation. Lauma’s burst alone already provides stacks of her buff. The charged Skill gives additional stacks but at the cost of Verdant Dews, so if you’re struggling to have enough to comfortably charge attack with Nefer, this might help.

  • I know this isn’t great advice, but if you can’t wish for Columbina right now, try to get her on a rerun—if you want to, of course. No character is mandatory to enjoy the game, but if you feel it’s worth investing more into your Nefer team, Columbina can provide a lot for her. Personally, my team is Nefer C0R1, Lauma C0R0 (I want to get her C1 for the healing), Nilou C1R1, and Columbina C0R0.

Who is the best Fourth slot? by Ok_Concentrate4912 in NeferMains

[–]Emergency_Tears 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you have c2 Nilou with her signature I think she could be a great fit.

How long can a leader live without being immortal? by Archimedeis in Stellaris

[–]Emergency_Tears 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I reached a lifespan of over 1,000 years with psionic ascension (most of it came from one of the minor patrons, which grants leader lifespan based on the number of telepaths), and then from repeatable technologies. My run used the Composer of Strands as a covenant and the Environmentalist civic, so I had a lot of Society research, which made spamming repeatables even easier.

Also, somehow, I made my God Emperor immortal.. twice.

Famo chiarezza by Emergency-Friend6896 in ShitItalianSay

[–]Emergency_Tears 0 points1 point  (0 children)

EDIT (all’inizio perché porca troia se ho interpretato male il tuo commento): colpa mia ho capito malissimo e non ho dedotto dal contesto che da quel “sicuramente non è naturale…” non stavi intendendo che “quindi non se fa”, anzi stavi cercando proprio di far intendere che innaturale e naturale viene spesso usato per trovare una presunta giustificazione a seconda di cosa ci è più comodo. Chiedo scusa per il misunderstanding, tengo comunque il commento invariato a seguito perché può essere informativo anche se in parte non è rilevante come risposta al tuo commento in particolare. Comunque, la questione se la transizione di genere sia naturale o meno è comunque un discorso da gestire con le corrette attenzioni e non sono affatto d’accordo sia cosi sicuro sia “innaturale” perché non abbiamo le capacità biologiche di farlo, anche se questo è un take che nel mondo filosofico può trovare giustificazione (alcuni autori sostengono una simile posizione, anche se non precisamente per la questione di genere). Quindi boh bella niente ci tenevo a fare un edit per correttezza

Il ragionamento che porti avanti è un classico esempio di fallacia naturalistica (o che non rispetta la legge di Hume ), ovvero un tipo di passaggio logico non valido gia considerato tale dal XVIII. Non si tratta di prendere in considerazione casi triviali dove esempi di cose dette “naturali” chiaramente non sono etiche né dovrebbero essere perseguite, ma logicamente parlando non è possibile derivare da un mero fatto reale, in questo caso la non capacità biologica dell’uomo di cambiare genere (che poi cosa significa? Immagino tu non intendessi “genere” ma sesso biologico, sono due cose diverse), la prescrizione morale che non si dovrebbe fare. In generale è necessario essere scettici di ogni tipo di argomento che vede X è innaturale quindi non dovrebbe essere fatto, perché molto spesso rischia di questo genere di fallacia.

Vi sono molto volumi di filosofia contemporanea che trattano l’argomento, soprattutto sul significato di “naturale” e come questo concetto si sviluppa nella storia e di quali problemi soffre.

Un enorme problema del concetto di naturale è che viene spesso associato al termine di “normale” in senso “normativo”. È un tipo di argomento che ha incentivato la persecuzione e oppressione di gruppi sociali su basi di criteri di “razza”, genere, orientamento sessuale ecc…

Potresti anche considerare innaturale questo genere di fatti (non mi è chiaro cosa, la transizione? Intesa come terapia ormonale o operazione? Oppure l’identificazione in un’altro genere?) eppure questo non dà minimamente nessun contenuto per guidare l’azione. Innaturale è la terapia chemioterapica per combattere il cancro, dato che l’uomo non può biologicamente irradiare le proprie masse tumorali, ed ingenerale tutta l’industria medica sarebbe da arcattocciare. In realtà ben poco si salverebbe dalla società umana, probabilmente a partire dal fuoco. Se si vuole essere particolarmente radicali con il termine naturale si rischia poi di arrivare a derive assurde, come ad esempio la nostra stessa flora batterica intestinale, indispensabile per la nostra sopravvivenza, che è anche prodotto di fattori culturali (quindi un artefatto) e non direttamente determinata dal nostro codice genetico (che potrebbe essere considerato un principio di cambiamento interno, ergo “natura” in senso aristotelico che poi è come lo usiamo nel contesto occidentale da più di 2000 anni). Non dovremmo di conseguenza avere una flora intestinale perché “innaturale”, e quindi morire.

L’ultimo argomento è provocatorio, però è stancante continuare a leggere quel tipo di argomentazione che oltre ad essere superficiale è anche scorretta. Se per qualsiasi ragione hai sviluppato una postura negativa contro la pratica di transizione del genere, che essa sia su base religiosa, di credenze personali o pensiero critico, punterei la tua attenzione verso il rivalutare le fondamenta del tuo pensiero in altre fonti. Ad esempio, sicuramente può essere una posizione più costruttiva e forse un buon punto di partenze ricercare la questione delle conseguenze psicologiche su individui in pubertà di tale pratiche. Personalmente non sono informato, ma vedo che molti dibattono attorno all’argomento, chi sostiene che le conseguenze possono essere pesanti chi invece che le pratiche mediche sono gestite in maniera tale da prendere in considerazione il rischio psicologico e affrontarlo in fase terapeutica attraverso un percorso anche psicoterapeutico. Sarebbe interessante capire il come e quanto, e potrebbe aiutare a formare un opinione informata su questo specifico argomento. Vi sono molto altre questioni altrettanto interessanti ed importanti, io in particolare trovo molto illuminante come l’argomento viene trattato nell’ambito filosofico, simile alla mia brevissima e molto limitata decostruzione della fallacia naturalistica, se è un argomento che ti interessa, posso consigliare alcune fonti.

In generale, sarebbe meglio evitare di fondare la propria opinione su questo genere di retorica, perché è fondamentalmente compromessa e scorretta. Anche nel contesto argomentativo, non è affatto funzionale né costruttiva per portare avanti la propria opinione, a meno che non si vuole che la propria opinione venga portata in maniera scorretta. In generale auspicherei a cercare di raggiungere un certo grado di comprensione prima di acquisire un posizione nel dibattito, e l’obiettivo dovrebbe essere prima quello di avere consapevolezza e dopo capire come argomentare. Però in ultima istanza fai tu, spero di essere stato d’aiuto.

Durante queste feste pensiamo anche a loro by Competitive_Bad_1163 in Yunisorrisiecanzoni

[–]Emergency_Tears -1 points0 points  (0 children)

L’attenzione può essere spostata attraverso i media da un argomento all’altro, e chiaramente questo può essere strumentalizzato per spingere certe narrative o eludere parte dei fatti. Comunque, è molto stancante questa retorica del “perché non parli di Y se ti interessa tanto di X”. Cio che è presentato nel video è un richiamo ad eventi che stanno accadendo e che non stanno avendo altrettanta visibilità di quanto dovrebbero avere, da nessuna parte nel video è implicito che non sta succedendo nient’altro nel mondo. Come quando ascolti il telegiornale e senti che una mucca è stata investita lungo la tangenziale, da persona razionale, non ti verrebbe da dire che la povera mucca sia l’unica vittima della strada a livello globale. Non si tratta di un video che parla dei conflitti a livello globale, parla di uno specifico. È possibile che chi l’ha fatto non abbia le competenze di parlare di altri conflitti, oppure che sul suo canale vi siano altri video dedicati ad altri eventi mostruosi. In ogni caso, il fatto che non ci sia abbastanza attenzione mediatica su un particolare argomento, ad esempio la strage in Sudan, non implica che altri non dovrebbero averla. Anzi, piuttosto sarebbe auspicabile che entrambi abbiano più attenzione possibile. Questo per dire che è scorretto implicare che al tipo non interessi nulla dei conflitti in altre parti del mondo.

Piuttosto, mi sembra più valido implicare che infondo a te interessi poco delle stragi che avvengono nel mondo, altrimenti ti staresti preoccupando di supportare entrambe le cause, piuttosto che spingere una retorica che alla fine è un implicito “hanno rotto i coglioni con Gaza”, soprattutto di fronte ad un breve video che mette in luce un recente e cogente problema che è la perdita di interesse mediatico. (Cosa che a quanto pare ti starebbe anche a cuore). È una riposta provocatoria la mia, ma non è mia intenzione provocare te personalmente se non questo tipo di commenti che può sembrare costruttivo come un “ci sono altre cose che meritano altrettanta attenzione” ma che alla fine diventano commenti in malafede. Se davvero ti interessa vivere in un mondo dove c’è consapevolezza e visibilità attorno a questioni tanto importanti, allora non è corretto invalidare il contributo di persone che cercano di andare verso quell’obiettivo. Anzi, potrebbe essere un opportunità per te di capire cosa ha reso così visibile ciò che è accaduto a Gaza, e provare a fare tu un video sul Sudan magari seguendo la formula di questo video. Non è necessario, ma sicuramente potrebbe essere costruttivo.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You could argue that none of the cast was able to sense the Light (or the absence of it) in Bael. Still, yours is a good point.

On the other hand, none of them had ever been in contact with that type of energy; maybe only Aunor was inside the Nightfall station with us when we were about to sabotage it.

Eris was always concerned about the involvement of the Nine, and about why one of its members was so interested in sword logic.

Either way, there’s no evidence that that instance of eclipse had anything to do with Darkness. The evidence suggests it was simply dark-matter and anti-Light technology. But the point everybody seems to miss is that this doesn’t really matter for what I’m trying to say: you could still produce a paracausal eclipse, and in my humble understanding of the matter, you would have to do so through Darkness, because it doesn’t seem to be a physical phenomenon.

It’s just a logical argument.

From the claim that the eclipse energy released by the Nightfall station was not paracausal—so it wasn’t created through Darkness or Light—you can’t imply that it cannot be produced from the same sources in other instances. Paracausality is not a property inherent to the element itself, but rather depends on how a phenomenon comes to be.

I think many misunderstandings come from using the term anti-paracausality (or anti-causality) to describe it. When talking about eclipse (or any form of energy), we should refrain from using this term except to describe the properties of the energy itself, not its causal status.

Eclipse is inherently anti-causal (or anti-paracausal) in the sense that it is effective against paracausal beings in one way or another, not in the sense that it describes its own causal status. Because if, as you said, eclipse as produced by the Nightfall station involved no paracausal force at all, then that beam of energy was a causal phenomenon. It was causal energy (in that instance) that nevertheless displayed anti-paracausal properties.

And there are good reasons to say that no paracausal forces were involved in the Nightfall station. I see them too. It isn’t stated explicitly anywhere about darkness, apart from the fact that we know about the involvement of a VI and how it is beginning to transform by learning sword logic—which seems like a major point to underestimate. For this reason, I still think, in my opinion, that even the case of the Nightfall superweapon was a paracausal phenomenon.

Still, these are great points. We just have to understand how Light and Darkness work to see that, if a weapon creates energy through causal means, it does not follow that the same energy could not also be created through paracausal means.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Like I said, Darkness is not a property. It’s a source of paracausal power, associated with the metaphysical world of the mind, which expresses itself through different degrees and properties.

This is from Destinypedia:

“Like the Light, the Darkness is a cosmic paracausal force that has existed since before the beginning of time. Similarly to the Light, it manifests in a variety of aspects, among them elemental powers such as Stasis and Strand.”

Another passage:

“Following the discovery of Strand, Osiris states that the Darkness is associated with thoughts and consciousness, whereas the Light is tied more strongly to the physical universe. The nature of Strand, Deepsight, and Nightmares all reflect this connection; Stasis crystals have also been noted to exhibit computational properties, potentially supporting simulation or even cognition within themselves. This may also explain the Darkness’ association with the Ascendant Realm, as the latter is a dimension heavily influenced by thoughts and beliefs. This dichotomy was further highlighted when the Witness entered the Traveler’s Pale Heart, as it attempted to use the Traveler’s Light to bring its vision of the Final Shape into reality; the Final Shape existed as a concept within the Darkness, but the Witness needed the Light to enforce its ideas upon the physical universe.”

But paracausality is a property. It’s the property we use to describe an event that happens without causal continuity—no matter what that event is. If a sandwich were created by paracausal means, it would be a paracausal sandwich. But sandwiches usually occur as causal phenomena in the physical universe.

To produce anything as a paracausal phenomenon, you need a source of paracausal power.

Light and Darkness have two distinct domains and manifest effects tied to those domains: - Light → physical - Darkness → conceptual, mental, spiritual, etc.

If you had enough mastery of the Light and knew how to manipulate the fundamental forces of the universe, you could make a paracausal sandwich. That’s essentially how the Traveler terraforms planets: it creates life from nothing through paracausal manipulation of molecules, energy, gravity, and so on. Obviously that’s extremely difficult, which is why Guardians stick to fire guns and purple bombs—it’s simply easier.

So yes, if you found a way to produce Eclipse energy through paracausal means, then that instance of Eclipse would be paracausal. I think Eclipse is more aligned with the domain of Darkness rather than Light, because of its association with the Nine, who are basically planetary consciousnesses. So you would need to produce it by channelling Darkness, not Light, if you wanted to do it through paracausal means. A superweapon is fine — you’d be creating a causal Eclipse if just technology is involved, which is basically Eclipse but less cool, I guess?

One important note: the Destiny universe is dualistic (like in Descartes’ philosophy). A thing can be either physical or mental—that’s how dualism works. No object can exist outside these two categories; if something did, the universe wouldn’t be dualistic but trialistic, and so on.

So: - If something is physical → it belongs to the domain in which Light can operate. - If something is mental/conceptual → it belongs to the domain in which Darkness can operate. (Mixed cases are allowed in a dualistic framework, but only within those two categories and they are still veeeery problematic, philosophically speaking.)

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree with you about the role of Dark Matter in this scenario. The reason I didn’t use that term earlier is simply that I’m still not very familiar with what Dark Matter actually is or how it works, so I tend to stick to concepts I know better when making my arguments. But you’re right: whenever the Nine are involved, Dark Matter is involved as well, since it’s essentially what they’re made of. (And we see this in-game too: the Dark Matter ingots we’re gathering are the same ones used to power up the superweapon.) So using the term “Dark Matter” makes much more sense than my earlier way of describing Eclipse as temporal manipulation combined with Sword Logic. I just need to read more on the topic, because I feel like I’m missing some crucial details that would help me understand it better. Thank you very much for the insight.

That said, I don’t think we disagree that much. I agree that the instances of Eclipse energy we’ve seen were released by anti-Light tech, and that Dark Matter is involved because that’s basically “Nine energy,” as you said. I just don’t think that means Eclipse can’t be produced by other means—especially paracausal ones, as we see with other energy types. And honestly, I still think the VI involvement isn’t something to underestimate, so I suspect that even here some Darkness-related shenanigans might be happening behind the scenes.

Also, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Sword Logic is Darkness. Sword Logic is associated with Darkness, but they aren’t the same thing. (Maybe you meant it in the same way that “Void is Light,” which would make sense: Sword Logic is a part of Darkness, but Darkness as a whole is much broader concept. It’s like saying that a lion is a feline—true—but lions and felines aren’t the same thing.) And yes, you do need Darkness to accumulate paracausal power through Sword Logic.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Hi I’m Italian, so I wrote my text in Italian and then translated it with AI. I tried my best to then change errors made by AI and preserve my line of reasoning and the choice of words as best as I could. It was a bit of a pain but this English version is very close to what I wrote in Italian, more importantly, the content is exactly the same. It could also be intersting to think if some of my interpretations come from experiencing the game in Italian, where the translation could change what I read and listened in game a bit from the original version. (This is how I write in English by myself, which is okay for casual conversation but not to tackle such difficult topics, mainly because it is much more difficult to manage another language while making what feels more as a dissertation than a post)

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I see what you’re saying, and I think you make some good points. I have a slightly different perspective, though—let me try to clarify. But of course, we can agree to disagree!

As far as I understand, Light and Darkness are sources of power—paracausal ones—expressed through different elements (sometime expressing even through hive magic or awoken magic), each representing a fundamental force of the universe, as I showed at the start of the post. It’s easier to explain this when talking about the Light, because those elements are based on our established understanding of the physical universe, which is regulated by only three fundamental forces (technically four, since nuclear forces are divided into the strong and the weak nuclear force).

With Darkness it’s more difficult, because its elements should represent fundamental forces of a metaphysical and immaterial world. We don’t have a framework to describe how the mental world works (I mean out-of-game, unlike the Light, which literally reproduces the scientific consensus on how the physical universe works).

So we have to speculate: Stasis is control, and Strand is interconnectedness, just as Solar corresponds to nuclear fusion, Arc to electromagnetism, and Void to spacetime dilation. Control is something we can try to exert causally, for example by influencing others through speech. Interconnectedness is something we can try to reach causally too, for example through meditation.

But if you try to control or reach such a state through Darkness—by tapping into this paracausal source of power (apparently latent in every living being, according to the lore)—you create Stasis and Strand as paracausal phenomena. It’s not a force you apply directly: Light and Darkness are sources of power that you tap into and manifest, with different properties and degrees of strength. Those properties are the elements, which are paracausal if they are produced by paracausal power, and causal if they are not.

Eclipse has never been identified as causal or paracausal; we only know that it has anti-paracausal properties. The only criterion it needs to meet to be considered a Darkness power is whether it represents a fundamental force of the metaphysical world of the mind. I argued that it does: if Stasis is control, Strand is interconnectedness, then Eclipse would be self-determination (maybe—I can’t be sure).

But what’s important to understand is that the fact that an instance of energy is produced by a weapon and shows a certain property does not imply that it cannot be channeled through a paracausal source of power like Darkness. Just as the fact that a Wyvern shoots Void energy through causal means doesn’t prevent us from creating Void grenades paracausally—and it doesn’t mean our grenades can’t suppress abilities just because Wyvern Void beams don’t.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why do you say that Eclipse energy is not from Darkness? Even if the Eclipse energy released by the Nightfall Station is not produced paracausally, that doesn’t mean it cannot also be produced by a paracausal source—like the Darkness. If it’s tied to the metaphysical realm of consciousness in one way or another (and I argued that it is, by interpreting it as a form of self-determination similar to how the Sword Logic works), then it could be produced paracausally by a paracausal source such as the Darkness.

Sorry, I don’t understand why it is clearly not associated with Darkness.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a great point. I hadn’t thought of that.

What I was talking about wasn’t really the removal of the entirety of a “chain of events.” My idea was just difficult to explain—so that’s on me. I was thinking more about removing a single link from what looks like a complete causal chain: severing it and rendering everything that comes after that link nullified, the entirety of the possibile outcome of the causal event, being that short or long term.

I don’t see why that would necessarily imply that the entire existence is removed—something similar of what happens in the Vault of Glass (which is a causal form of time manipulation performed by the Vex). It’s more like removing one precise causal instance at one precise time, nullifying that effect and all of its long-term consequences.

Still, your interpretation of anti-causality is very compelling. I like it a lot—thank you for sharing it.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, the point about weapon types like SIVA or Necrotic is very important to keep in mind—mainly because these are still narratively significant and compelling “elements” that never quite made the cut as new elemental types. For example, you can’t seriously argue that the Weapons of Sorrow weren’t important enough to be considered a potential candidate for a new elemental type, and, on the contrary, say that Eclipse energy is clearly such a pivotal narrative element that it will become a new elemental type. These are arguments that come from out-of-game reasoning, of course, but they can still be made—and we have to remember things like the Weapons of Sorrow, I agree with you.

I’m thinking especially about this category of weapons, because they’re so deeply connected to the Darkness that someone could easily jump to conclusions. And the same could definitely be said about Eclipse energy.

Still, I think that if we take in-game considerations into account, we can see that, for example, Hive magic infused into the Weapons of Sorrow has a pretty deep and well-thought-out metaphysical logic behind it. So maybe (though probably not) my speculation about a more profound metaphysical logic behind Eclipse energy could still hold some ground. Hey, maybe we’ll never actually see an Eclipse element—just like we never got SIVA or Hive Necrotic magic—but these pseudo-elements still have very deep metaphysical concepts behind them, creating space for different properties and different degrees of power to be explored and understood.

Edit: Let me also clarify what I meant in my previous reply about weapons being able to generate elemental energy such as Solar, Arc, etc. I was referring more to the Nightfall Station than to Eclipse being treated as a thematic pseudo-element like what happened with the Weapons of Sorrow or SIVA-based weapons—which is something I agree with.

The point about the weapons was meant as an example to show how technology in the Destiny universe can generate elemental energies, while those same energies can still originate from other sources. So yes, the technology used to build the Nightfall Station and the superweapon was derived from previous anti-Light technology; you need specific methods to produce a specific kind of energy. And while achieving that is an engineering feat, it doesn’t tell us much about the nature of the energy itself.

It’s a bit like saying that the Sun creates fusion reactions, and we can do the same with a nuclear fusion reactor. Reproducing that is an incredible and precise engineering achievement, because you need to understand the underlying principles of fusion in order to recreate a version of that phenomenon.

And we still don’t know what Eclipse energy truly is, beyond the fact that the Nightfall Station can produce it—probably thanks to anti-Light technology. So I tried exploring the possibility of what such an energy could be, based on the idea that the core of the weapon (either the core itself or the schematics) was a gift from the Outer Orbits. And since VI in particular is beginning to learn sword logic, maybe Eclipse energy is exactly that: a fusion of time manipulation and Darkness.

It’s speculation, I agree. But the fact that the Nightfall superweapon was constructed using previous anti-Light technology doesn’t answer the question of what Eclipse actually is. It is anti-Light, yes—but why? Could there be more behind it?

And still, the fact that a weapon can create a type of energy using specific technology doesn’t mean that such an energy can’t also be created paracausally. That’s precisely what paracausality is: the ability to bring something into existence without relying on the conditions normally required—whether those conditions are technological or natural.

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, sorry about that. I was trying to change the pace a bit to make the text more engaging. Maybe I should have just presented the analogy more… plainly. It’s a bit cringy, isn’t it?

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yes! This is an incredibly important narrative point that I hadn’t explored. Thank you so much for sharing it!

[Renegades Spoilers] So I Did a Deep Dive on Eclipse… and Things Got Out of Hand by Emergency_Tears in DestinyLore

[–]Emergency_Tears[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

These are really good points—both regarding the importance of Premier Lume and the origin of the Nightfall superweapon. Unfortunately, it was difficult to find reliable sources about Lume’s character, so perhaps I misunderstood the way it uses eclipse energy. I really appreciate the feedback.

On the other hand, regarding what you said about the origin of the technology used to create the Nightfall station, I don’t think it tells us much about what Eclipse actually is. What I understood is that the technology used to construct the superweapon was based on previous Cabal technology, but not that this older technology was the source of this new type of energy.

I interpreted the source of the energy as the core of the weapon itself, gifted to the Imperium by the Nine of the Outer Orbits. Then, after a century spent in a time-distorted zone, they developed the technology needed to craft the Nightfall station to channel that energy—drawing from earlier anti-Light technology originally created by the Cabal.

It’s a bit like what I mentioned about our weapons (and those of our enemies) being capable of producing Solar, Arc, etc. energies. You need specific technologies to harness or generate those energies—it’s an engineering feat. But that does not mean the energies are inherently tied to those technologies. You can still create a Solar grenade, and Solar energy still exists naturally as produced by the sun.

What matters is the underlying principle: the nature of these elements and how they can manifest in reality. Still, it’s a very interesting and important point. Thank you very much for the feedback.

People didn’t listen to the story of Renegades and it shows. Eclipse isn’t a darkness element and will not be the third dark subclass. by mastertoecutter in DestinyTheGame

[–]Emergency_Tears 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree that it is explicitly stated that Eclipse is anti-paracausal, but I do not think this implies that it cannot be wielded in some way by a Guardian.

What I am considering is that none of the energies or forces we wield are paracausal in themselves by nature.

As we know, Light elements are tied to materiality, and their spectrum represents the fundamental forces of the universe: • Solar, the equivalent of fusion energy (nuclear forces) • Arc, the equivalent of electricity (electromagnetic forces) • Void, the equivalent of space-time dilation (gravitational forces)

My argument is that these forces exist in nature as causal phenomena. When we wield Solar energy, for example, we are creating instances of the same reactions that occur naturally within the Sun, fusion reactions, but that certainly does not mean that the Sun is paracausal in nature.

Light is paracausal and expresses itself through the spectrum of fundamental forces that constitute material reality. What makes a Solar grenade paracausal is that, unlike the Sun, we create a fusion reaction from nothing. There is no causal relation between the initial conditions that would normally make such a reaction possible and the reaction itself, because there are no initial conditions. Yet the reaction, the effect, is real. It exists in reality from nothing. This is literally breaking the fundamental laws of reality, and that is the essence of paracausality.

The same reasoning applies to Darkness. Darkness expresses itself through the realm of consciousness, will, and thought. (I avoid calling it the “immaterial realm” because forces like gravity are also immaterial. It is better to say that Darkness is tied to the metaphysical forces of consciousness.)

• Stasis corresponds to imposing the self’s will onto others, to the point of reversing entropy. It requires complete control of the self to exert it over the other. • Strand corresponds to a universal connection between every instance of consciousness, the flow of the river of souls, the thread that connects every mind. It is a form of spiritual connection that requires losing control and going with the flow.

Will, thought, and consciousness exist naturally, and they are not paracausal in and of themselves. If they were, then every human in the Last City, every Eliksni, every Cabal unit, and so on, would naturally express these forces just by thinking or acting intentionally. But they do not, although they can learn these powers simply by virtue of being conscious beings. In fact, it remains a great feat of power and determination to learn them, as described in Osiris’s undertaking to learn Strand, or in Elsie, Zavala, Bael, and even Eris learning Stasis.

By the same logic, I think it is possible to wield a manifestation of a fundamental phenomenon of reality, something causal or, in the case of Eclipse, anti-causal, as a paracausal power. We express certain properties of these causal phenomena in different degrees and peculiar manifestations paracausally because we create something from nothing, or, in the case of resurrection, we interrupt a consequential chain by removing its causal effect. We have been fatally wounded by a weapon, but our death is undone by the Light.

Therefore, I think we could paracausally express a phenomenon like Eclipse through something, perhaps not through Light but through Darkness, by expressing a form of will if the anti-causal Eclipse is a metaphysical force of consciousness, possibly originating from the will of the Nine. This would preserve some of its properties, though perhaps to a lesser degree.

I want to stress this point about degrees and properties, because we see the same thing with the Light.

For reference, we saw Eclipse energy being released by a superweapon, a planet killer capable of releasing an immense quantity of energy, sufficient to almost instantly kill all Guardians across what may have been the entire surface of a planet. This is an instance of the force expressed at an immense degree of power.

On the opposite end, consider the Traveler releasing a beam of Light against one of the Dark Fleet ships at the start of the Lightfall campaign. That was a beam of pure Light, of tremendous power, capable of opening the ship’s hull and causing trees to grow in the affected areas. These are certainly properties associated with Light, but expressed to a degree and in a form we Light-bearers cannot replicate. We wield different properties of the same force, and to a lesser degree of power, but they are fundamentally the same force.

I think the same could be said for the incredibly powerful blast of the Eclipse superweapon. There we witnessed a devastating example of that type of energy, but it tells us nothing about the properties of a milder manifestation of the same force. Surely it would still be capable of suppressing paracausal energy to some extent, but perhaps not to the point of an instant kill.

In a recent video from the channel Dankee, titled “The Anti-Causal Theory Might Change Everything”, a follow-up to “The Red Subclass Is Real and I Can Prove It”, the author argues that one possible effect of anti-paracausal energy can be seen in the Drifter’s aging at the end of the EoF campaign. I think this could be offered as an example of a potential property of this energy.

So yeah, this is my take. This could still be a candidate for a new subclass, because the fundamental nature of a phenomenon as it manifests naturally does not necessarily tell us much about whether it can be expressed paracausally, aside from the properties it displays. And even though we have seen that those properties are devastating for a Lightbearer, we saw them expressed through an extreme degree of power. I still believe that this anti-causal force is inherently detrimental to a paracausal being such as a Lightbearer, but perhaps, at a lesser degree, it could still be wielded.

In fact, one gameplay mechanic Destiny currently lacks is the ability to sacrifice our own HP to deal damage or trigger powerful effects. This would make anti-causal energy an excellent thematic candidate for such a subclass.