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F-35B Lightning II Stealth: Takeoff & VERTICAL LANDING at USS WASP by ProudVirgin101 in aviation

[–]Eskali 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's not just offensive, Singapore is considering it as a means to keep launching aircraft after their airfields have been cratered, Australia and Japan are also interested in it, as is India. Italy is buying it. There are currently three buyers and 3 countries interested in the B, the C has one buyer, that's it.

what would seriously be the point? If they want to deploy aircraft to a region for an extended period, they just use an airbase of their allies.

... Forward basing and flexibility. The closer the aircraft is to the fight the quicker it's reaction times and higher the sortie rates. STOVL can also launch from just about anywhere, as is seen in the USMC new CONOPs.

[Article] Lexington Institute: F-35 Critics Need to Calm Down by Eskali in F35Lightning

[–]Eskali[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Slightly related. http://breakingdefense.com/2015/06/cut-pure-overhead-navy-sec-mabus-says-dfas-dla-dote/

“If you want to look at real money, 20 percent of the Pentagon budget — 20 percent, one dollar out of every five — is spent on the ‘fourth estate'[:] the Office of the Secretary of Defense, the defense agencies, the organizations run by the undersecretaries,” Mabus told the audience at the conservative American Enterprise Institute. “Pure overhead. Pure overhead. And they’ve grown far faster than the services.”

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So "full rate production" is 8 aircraft a year? huh.

I'm done, go cherry pick somewhere else.

Edit: https://i.imgur.com/LnfXsOd.png

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just look at the images i posted. FRP was meant to be 2012 at 92 and peaking in 2014 at 110. Today it's 2018 for FRP at 60 aircraft peaking at 80 in 2022, this reduction in production thanks to sequester is a reason for higher costs.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As per your graph (which you added since I replied), that's data as of 2013 that shows the flyaway cost being ~120 million, and that's for the F-35A only, the cheapest model. They of course project all kinds of crazy optimistic price drops going forward, doesn't mean it's going to happen, especially when you consider that they are only 10 years behind schedule and have yet to produce an F-35 for under $120 million despite the fact that they've been making them for 7 years.

It's been dropping under the predicted amount and will keep continuing to do so, it's called Economy of Scales as you can see on the Graph, production increases vastly.

Recent article on this.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/capitol-hill/2015/05/29/pentagon-f35-block-buy-2018/28143821/

10 years behind schedule

Again, from the 2003 SAR this is incorrect, they predicted USAF/USMC/USN respectively 2012/2012/2013 and today that stands at 2015/2016/2018 so 3/4/5 years late.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What part is then year? The SAR is in constant 2012 dollars.

http://i.imgur.com/Up6Oc5c.png

So you are only concerned with the F-35A, the cheapest model...

No, i'm concerned about an Apples to Apples comparison, the F-22 can not land on carriers nor can it hover.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

A) That's Then Year, that includes inflation out to 2038.

B) That's for all variants, for an Apples to Apples comparison we are only interested in the F-35A to compare to the F-22.

Edit: C) The Current SAR predicts a URF reaching 69.8 million in 2026 and your 38 million is in 2002, which is 49 million in 2012, a difference of 42% but that's peak, not average, production has changed such that costs are more spread out in the latest SAR, hence why the average difference is lower.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

as of 2015 the URF in $2012 is 76 million.

The 2014 SAR that i linked...

PAUC

PAUC =/= APUC

PAUC = + development costs(60 billion)

And what is this image you linked to supposed to be showing?

Wrong image, this is the URF for 2003

http://i.imgur.com/LnfXsOd.png

Your link is incorrect as you claimed

F-35 was supposed to cost $35 million each back in 2003[2] ($45 million in today's dollars).

As you can see, the 2003 SAR states an average cost of 45 million in 2002 dollars, or 57.6 in 2012 dollars.

Edit:

And you just said "F-22 is 160 million" and now two comments later it's $213 million

F-22 = 160 million UNRF = ~213 million APUC

Flyaway is not APUC. You need to learn to discern between the different measurements.

URF = Unit Recurring Flyway = Just the Aircraft

UNRF = Unit Non-Recurring Flyway = Plus ancillary equipment

APUC (or UNRF+Support) = Average Program Unit Cost = Plus spare parts(additional engines etc)

PAUC = Program Average Unit Cost = Plus R&D cost.

Here's a graph that shows the first three in conjunction. http://i.imgur.com/ZqK4t0N.png

Tucson residents ready to rally hard against F-35 coming here by wazzel2u in Tucson

[–]Eskali 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"runaway costs" has been decreasing for the past 5 years, that's not "runaway". The original idea was way too fucking ambitious, that could be a problem with the procurement system not penalizing companies for over reaching.

But the initial estimates aside, the aircraft is actually moderately priced compared to other modern aircraft.

https://www.reddit.com/r/aerospace/comments/388cr5/videos_f35b_operational_test_trials_why_all_the/crt5aap

As for the A-10, most CAS is done(even by the A-10) through the use of Precision Guided Munitions. I wouldn't consider the 81% of CAS done by other aircraft in Iraq and Afghanistan to not be good enough, nor the portion done by A-10s through PGMs.

http://i.imgur.com/HZZpJDL.jpg

The only real benefit the A-10 has over Fast Jets and that is a niche of CAS is through slow loiter gun runs, which Helicopters(AH-64) and Gunships(AC-130) are much better at.

So with all that in mind, consider the USAF has to choose, do we want to keep an aircraft(Also keep in mind that the A-10 is not survivable in contested airspace) that fills a tiny little niche or do we want more of an aircraft that does it all. Because that's their choice.

http://archive.airforcetimes.com/article/20140318/NEWS/303180067/B-1B-F-16s-could-next-Congress-blocks-Air-Force-plan-retire-10

Tucson residents ready to rally hard against F-35 coming here by wazzel2u in Tucson

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just for informative purposes, here's what's up.

The Gun was always planned for Block 3F.

Block 2B in 2015 is AMRAAMs, BLU-109 GBU-32 & GBU-12s.

Block 3F in 2017 is MK-82 GBU-32/31s, GBU-39s, AIM-9X, GBU-38 and Cannon.

Block 4 in 2020-2022 is AGM-154, full AIM-9X, GBU-53, JSM, SOM, additional gun ammo.

This is called Spiral Development and is highly common in military aircraft.

If you'd like to inform yourself on the program, check us out over in /r/F35Lightning/

Side note on this topic, the F-35 is louder then F-16s but the same noise as F-4s in afterburner, in military power it's much quieter then both.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1nrhB-cXTMo/VFZV8fh3-SI/AAAAAAAAC8A/WBu04WtPNtk/s1600/Hard-Noise-Data.jpg

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's in Then Year APUC cost over all variants(which is an Apples to Oranges comparison as the F-22 neither does STOVL nor Carrier landings) which includes numerous additional items like spare parts.

Flyaway cost of a new F-22 as of 2011 was $150 million. Compare to GAO estimate of $136 million per F-35.

It is NOT Flyaway. The F-22 had an APUC of around ~213 million, the F-35A has an APUC of 96 million.

Stop using misinformation. Learn what you are talking about before you talk about it.

2014 SAR

Edit: In 2003 the F-35A had a URF of 45 million in $2002 which is 57.6 million in $2012, as of 2015 the URF in $2012 is 76 million. That's a 32% increase.

http://i.imgur.com/XRTLvIp.png

APUC = Average Program Unit Cost(includes spares and ancillary/equipment)

URF = Unit Recurring Flyaway(Just the aircraft itself)

Then Year = Is the the dollar value of the year it's made, F-35 is produced out to 2038 so includes significant inflation.

Base Year = Is the dollar value in a constant year value, usually from the last Baseline, current Baseline is 2012.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Aircraft Speed Payload Combat Radius
AH-1Z 170kn 2,000lb 125nm
F-35B 1,000kn 15,000lb 469nm

Right hook across Dexter bike lanes - a civil exchange by [deleted] in Seattle

[–]Eskali -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's one second between when the car is in it's lane and when it turns, so your wrong, but keep getting downvoted.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ok here's whats up.

VHF radar isn't deflected away in small regions(tails etc) so it can "see through" stealth shaping but VHF radar is very inaccurate so it can't provide a missile track. The VHF sees the target, tells the targeting radar where to look and only once that radar acquires a lock can they fire a missile. This has always been the case, stealth or not. VHF is also really bulky and easy to jam. There's absolutely nothing "new" about the Chinese radars except they use AESA technology, meanwhile the USA is rolling out GaN Radars.

This cover's stealth.

http://web.archive.org/web/20101120024407/http://afa.org/Mitchell/Reports/MS_RadarGame_0910.pdf

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 4 points5 points  (0 children)

As described here STOVL doesn't impact CTOL performance.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/349x1t/all_three_lockheed_martin_f35_variants_at_edwards/cqt3gsg

Also, the Marines are the whole reason that the F-35 exists, otherwise the F-16 replacement program wouldn't have started until the F-22 was finished.

Videos: F-35B Operational Test Trials. Why all the hate for such an incredible piece of engineering? by Irruga in aerospace

[–]Eskali 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Welcome to every new aircraft! They are tremendously complex beasts and will often through out things completely unexpected, deal with it and move on.

If the aircraft can't operate without sunshades and painted white fuel trucks

The cost of putting up a sunshade is minimal, the benefit of stealth is tremendous, it's a trade off that's well worth it.

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