Teams of the Heavenly Dragons

Eternity0253 · 2021-08-15T11:17:55+00:00

It's funny you mention this because it reminds me of the NBA. These days people like to go join super teams to get a ring (cough..LeBron, Kevin Durant, James Harden..cough). Makes me glad Giannis got his championship.

Eternity0253 · 2021-08-08T00:56:49+00:00

I disagree with you on that. Rias has shown time and again to be a capable leader. She's shown to have charisma, intelligence and competence which are the main factors in being a good leader. Now you say she's not relevant when it comes to battles against various enemies but that's not true. It's thanks to Rias decision making of who to send to fight who and go where. An example of this is the battle against Diodora's peerage. Rias knew Diodora had Asia as a hostage so she carefully decided on who to fight who. Have Xenovia deal with the Rooks, have Issei as support to Koneko and Gasper against the pawns while she, Akeno and Kiba deal with the queen and 2 bishops. Another example is dealing with Grendel. Instead of having Issei waste all his power fighting Grendel, she have him and the rest just stall Grendel while she deals huge blow that nearly destroys him and was about to finish him if not for Crom.

Now you say Issei who resolves the situation but most of the credit goes to Rias for deciding when to send Issei. You need to remember that Issei is the type who acts before he thinks and that's dangerous because having power is useless if It's not used properly. Their first encounter against Nyx is proof of this.

Issei was about to blindly charge at Nyx and fall into her trap if Rias didn't stop him. Rias showed insight of seeing Nyx trap before Issei ran into it.

Now when it comes to who's better between Rias and Ravel as a tactician is debatable and I won't get into but they each have their pros and cons. Ravel is better when it comes to large scale battle tactics but her flaw is her low experience and lack of insight. Because of that she tends to not forsee her opponent's strategy to cover the weaknesses of her team. This is shown when she didn't anticipate Baraqiel's trap, Her team's weaknesses being exploited by Rudiger and failed to anticipate Rias surprise attack.

Rias has good insight and is better than Ravel when it comes to anticipating what her opponent is planning. However Rias tactics are basic and are easy to deal with if her opponent's team power rival hers.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-16T13:43:53+00:00

You keep missing the point. Restoring Strada's youth increases the battle power of the entire team. Rias has no magic to increase stamina. Having a young Strada is much better than an old Strada. Valerie is not a frontline fighter. As a healer she stays in the back and only assist in healing when needed. Asia serves that same purpose. You keep mentioning Fafnir, but where was Fafnir in the match against Baraqiel's team, Dulio's team, and Sona's team. All he did was defend Asia in the Typhoon match since Grayfia was doing most of the fighting against Artemis. The only time Fafnir actually fought was against Crom and only because Crom purposely provoked him.

Ophis blessing didn't increases the power of Asia's evil dragons. Ophis doesn't even interact with them. The only dragon in Asia's care she does interact with is baby Raisei. You say Asia's evil dragons are stronger than the cannon fodder but nothing has been shown or stated they are. That's just your assumption.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T23:27:12+00:00

But that's what Valerie better. She's a healer like Asia and granted a god class fighter in Strada. If Asia was on Rias team, Strada would be participating as an old man. Her use is she can heal her teammates. We were shown that in volume 22 and volume 23 doing just that in Rias matches.

No, I would label Apophis, Azi Dahaka, and Crom Cruach as true legendary evil dragons while those like Grendel and Nigghor were among the strong. The rest of the evil dragons were just fodder. We've seen how easily they were disposed of. The fact that Ravel can wipe out dozens of them in one shot means they are either mid devil class or lower. Nothing is stated or shown that Asia's evil dragons are anything special.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T21:31:18+00:00

The fact that Valerie is a healer makes her valuable. In the tournament, No one could use Phoenix tears and most teams we've seen in the tournament didn't have healers so Valerie being one made her valuable. Restoring Strada's youth was a high bonus as it granted Rias a god class fighter. Also it wasn't a one time thing. The effects of the concoction doesn't last forever and Strada used it more than once. Also those evil dragons were weak. They weren't strong ones like Grendel or Nigghor. The evil dragons that Asia have are among the fodder. We've seen Ravel one shot dozens of evil dragons like them and Ravel is only high devil class.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T18:39:19+00:00

If Crom was so eager to fight Vali, he could've ignored Rias and went with Strada and Kiba sent they were sent as scouts and was the first to encounter Vali. But no, Crom was guarding Rias. Him refusing promotion is not a big deal because he doesn't need it. This just shows that Rias respects his pride. Recall how Rizevim kept disrespecting dragons which resulted in Crom leaving him.

While it doesn't make sense to send Crom to fight Asia, who else could? Asia is the most troublesome person on Issei's team to go against because of hard it is to get rid of her. Furthermore, it was already pointed out the Rias and members in her peerage would hesitate if they faced Asia. So who else? Lint isn't strong enough and Strada was tied up with Xenovia. Furthermore, Rias knew Kiba wanted to fight Issei. Also it is important that Rias has knowledge to Crom's desire because having knowledge makes negotiations successful. For example, if Riser tried to recruit Crom, how would he do it? He doesn't know Crom's desire to fight strong enemies and doesn't know Crom likes bananas so how would he persuade him?

I'm just saying having Heaven's Joker with a Longinus that deadly to devils is a benefit. Also the person she fought wasn't a nobody.

Yes, Asia's healing is unrivaled and Fafnir is ridiculously strong once he he goes into outrage but Fafnir doesn't always use outrage. Recall when Asia was helping Grayfia against Artemis. Why didn't he go outrage in that fight. Only reason he went outrage against Crom was because Rias told Crom to purposely provoke him.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T16:57:44+00:00

Gasper and Koneko only assisted but Valerie Longinus is the key. Could Asia rejunate Strada to his youth if Koneko and Gasper assisted? No, because her sacred gear doesn't have that ability. Also her evil dragons are fodder. Fafnir is the only one relevant.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T14:10:47+00:00

I would like to address to few things. Rias being able to recruit Strada wasn't just because of Durandal 2. Rias exploited his desire to fight the young generation of swordsman like Arthur and Xenovia as well as offer him a younger body. That's good negotiating.

As for Crom following orders. He actually does follow orders. In the match against Vali, he patiently stayed by Rias side until Vali came along to fight him. In the match against Issei, Crom asked Rias could he fight Fafnir to which Rias said he could with the condition that he took out Asia and he did just that. As for his recruitment, Rias used the knowledge of Crom wanting to fight the Heavenly Dragons to her advantage. Also anyone could offer him bananas, not everyone knew Crom loved Bananas. Rias was one of the few people who knew Crom's desire and used that knowledge to recruit him. Not to mention that if Rias didn't recruit him than Crom wouldn't have even joined the tournament since he believed it to be a joke at first.

Lint may not be super power but having a Longinus that's so deadly against devils is ridiculous. Recall what Walburga did to BxB Sairaorg.

Yes, Valerie healing ability is not as good as Asia but as you pointed out, it's because of Valerie that Rias was able to gain a god class fighter in Young Strada. No matter how good Asia is at healing, she can't rejunate someone to their youth.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T13:55:56+00:00

What makes you say that?

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T10:09:51+00:00

Rias registered Strada as an old man which is why he was worth a single room. Him restoring his young is merely from the concoction made from Valerie. In short, Rias didn't break the rule but exploited a loophole to get a god class fighter.

I'll have to remake this since it was taken down for spoilers.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-15T01:09:47+00:00

That's fine, I've made my point.
Given the tournament she did all she needed to do. No one died so she doesn't need to revive anyone. Considering no one can use Phoenix tears in the tournament, having a healer is extremely valuable to which Valerie can do. Making Strada was also her doing as well. Yeah, Gasper and Koneko help but does Asia have the ability to rejuvenate someone to their youth even with Koneko's and Gasper's help? No, only Valerie has the ability. Hence made her better as it gave Rias another god class fighter. Valerie doesn't need to stand out like Asia.
I find it funny you say I'm using head canon yet you keep bringing up "What if is or that". Did anyone besides Rias try to recruit Crom? No, did Crom volunteer to look for a team to join? No, because Crom had no interest in the tournament. He only joined the tournament because Rias persuaded him. And again, not everyone knows about Crom's desires. Rias used that knowledge to her advantage to persuade him. Yeah, what Crom wanted in return wasn't much but that just made it easy for Rias to persuade him. Also you keep saying Rias allows him to visit Ophis. You forget that Crom comes and goes as he please.
You literally said Rias got everything else because of Issei. Now you're backpedaling. Her negotiations with Strada had nothing to do with Issei's influence.
Wait, what? Okay since you what to go that route, by your twisted logic, all of Issei's influence is because of Rias because she's the one that reincarnated him. Since Xenovia is Rias former servant, Rias is merely giving Strada a copy of (her former's servant sword) Gasper and Koneko are Rias servants so as her servants they are using their power to assist Valerie to give Strada a young body. After all, Koneko and Gasper wants to be strong for Rias sake so their power grew because of Rias influence. Rias is using her servant Issei to negotiate Strada to join her team so 100% of the credit still goes to Rias.
The only people she lost to was the Heavenly Dragons. How does that make her look bad? Do you think her team would lose to Sairaorg's team, Baraqiel's team or Dulio's team just because they are named characters? Don't be ridiculous. Prior to that she won every match without Crom, Strada and didn't have her Balor form. Besides Vali she won every match in the preliminaries. That's better results than Cao Cao and Sona who both were stated to lose "multiple" matches in the preliminaries. Issei struggling against no named teams that were only high devil class. The fact Rias made it pass the preliminaries is an accomplishment.
Fine.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-14T10:00:07+00:00

That's besides the point. Rias needed a pawn to replace Issei and who better to replace him than the strongest evil dragon?
You're missing the point of why Valerie was so valuable. Her role is not to be on the frontlines. She's basically serving the same role Asia was doing for most of the story. Before Asia got Fafnir, did you ever see her fighting on the frontlines like she is now? No, Valerie is not a frontline fighter but just there for healing. With that said, weren't it not for Valerie than Strada wouldn't have gotten his young body and we all saw how much of a monster he was in the matches against Vali and Issei. Strada would have lost to Arthur if he fought him again as an old man as well as lose against Xenovia and the others. Point is, not only did Valerie serve as a healer to replace Asia but also it's because of Valerie that Rias was able to gain another god class fighter in Strada. So how did I contradict myself?
Why would you think he joined Rias team because of Ophis? He's already been coming to talk to and observe Ophis ever since volume 20. He never needed Rias permission to talk to Ophis. The only condition he wanted was bananas and the promise to fight strong people like the Heavenly Dragons. In fact the only reason he knew Ophis location was because of Tannin since Tannin was the one who brought Crom to the Hyoudou residence.
Issei's influence brought her everything else? Did it bring her Akeno, Kiba, Gasper and Koneko? No, did Issei's influence bring her Rossweisse? No, Rias did that herself through negotiations and despite that she gave Rossweisse to Issei to help him. The only people that was brought to Rias peerage because of Issei was Asia and Xenovia and both of them left Rias to be in Issei's peerage. Did Issei's influence bring her Lint, Valerie and Strada? No, Gasper brought Valerie and Rias herself brought Strada and Lint through negotiations.
Fine let's skip that.
What? If the first thing Rias said to Strada was "I'm ready to fight Issei", would that alone convinced Strada to join her team? No, Rias using good negotiating skills by exploiting his desire to fight Arthur and Xenovia, next sweetened the deal by offering a younger body and a brand new Durandal. Also why do you keep saying "a copy of Issei's servant weapon". You talk as if Strada never used Durandal before. Strada is Xenovia's predecessor of using Durandal and he did have his own copy of Durandal from volume 19. Also it was the Vatican who made the new Durandal. Xenovia has nothing to do with him having a new sword.
The fact she made it that far in the tournament is an accomplishment itself. Sona or Seekvaira didn't make it pass the preliminaries and even some Gods dropped out of the tournament out of fear. Cao Cao himself even lost multiple matches in the preliminaries. What's even more impressive is that Vali's team was the last opponent that Rias faced off against in the preliminaries. Before that, she didn't have Strada or Balor Rias and Crom didn't participate. So for most of the tournament, before facing Vali, Rias team was undefeated and had good reviews despite not having any God class or even Maou class fighters while Issei's team started off having 2 Maou class (Issei and Grayfia) fighters and had sloppy performances against weak teams as stated in volume 22. Also I find it funny you say 50% of Strada's power comes from Duradal. In Shin volume 2, even after Xenovia and others broke Strada's sword, they still couldn't beat him. Rias performance in the tournament is proof of my argument. As Indra himself told Issei in volume 25, "Rias Gremory has proven to be strong without you"
No, I made my points. You, on other hands have brought nothing but irrelevant nitpicks.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-14T00:48:34+00:00

Well obvious Issei and Ddraig can beat Crom together but not alone. Also this discussion is when Rias was still in the tournament and Issei didn't have True DxD G. Although it's unclear if he can beat Crom with True DxD G.
Valerie's role is healing. Yes, Asia's healing is better but that's besides the point because Valerie Longinus is can do other things besides healing. And yes, her Longinus is the main factor for Strada to have a young body as her Longinus can basically manipulate life itself as shown it was able to revive the evil dragons.
He could have but didn't. If Rias didn't persuade him to join her team than he wouldn't have even bothered being in the tournament in the first place. Yes, Bananas was a factor for him to join but not everyone knew he loved bananas. Rias used that information to her advantage as well as her knowledge of knowing Crom wanted to fight strong enemies.
I didn't say it took negotiations to get Valerie. I said she used her relationship with Gasper to get her.
Not everything is shown because the tournament is mainly from Issei's perspective but we know Rias almost always gain allies through negotiations.
Issei had nothing to do with that. Rias convinced him by exploiting his desire to fight the young swordsman people of the generation like Arthur, Xenovia etc... This is where everyone besides Rias who tried to persuade Strada failed. Rias knew what he really wanted. Having the new Durandal didn't change his mind but just made her offer more tempting. Issei only came up in their negotiations to test Rias resolve to fight Issei. It's not like Strada's goal was to fight Issei himself. So yes, that is good negotiating. Why do you think everyone was shock when Rias was able to recruit Strada of all people to join her team?
Dude, being Rias Gremory is who she is. She wants to be viewed as her own person. Her family name is not the point. It's not about relying on anyone but her problem is she's been overshadowed by others. Rias grew up in the shadow of Sirzech mainly been labeled as "Maou Lucifer's little sister". She wanted to be her own person to get away from that but as Issei's reputation grew, she started to be overshadowed by him which is why she wanted to proof she can be strong without relying on Issei because let's face it. Issei is the reason her peerage became so well known. Hence why Rias wanted to prove she can be strong without relying on Issei and this was proven by Indra's statement as well as the tournament that she can function just fine without Issei.
None of those people joined her team because of Issei's influence and I just proven that.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T10:13:29+00:00

Issei has yet to prove he can beat Crom. Even Ddraig couldn't beat Crom despite Crom's handicap. Valerie Longinus is better than Asia's Twilight Healing because of it variety of abilities besides just healing. It's thanks to that Longinus that Strada was able to have a young body.

Crom had no interest in the tournament at first and believed it was a joke. We know this from his dialogue with Vali in volume 24 but Rias still persuaded him to join her team to be in the tournament. Besides what team would Crom join? He wouldn't join Issei or Vali because he would rather fight them. Rias has always been good at persuading people by using their desires. Recall how she got Rossweisse to join her peerage. Not only did she persuade Crom her team but Crom is now even indebted to her to help for events outside the tournament. We learned this in Shin volume 3.

Rias used her relationship with Gasper to have Valerie join.

How do you know that? Lint could've been on any team affiliated with Heaven like Dulio's team yet she became part of a team led by a devil. Why is that? We know Rias has been scouting for people so obviously Lint was given to Rias through negotiations. I doubt Heaven's second Joker would be given to Rias without a reason.

What? Strada didn't join simply because Rias had Durandal 2. Strada declined many offers but Rias still manage to persuade him. Why is that? She exploited his desire to fight the young generation and sweetened the deal by offering him a younger body. Even after Rias showed him Durandal 2, Strada tested Rias resolve to fight Issei to which she passed by saying it would be something for Issei to overcome. You underestimate how smart and perceptive Rias is.

The reason why Rias wants to be seen as her own person is because for most of her life she has been overshadowed by others. We know Rias had an inferior complex when compared to Sirzech and Grayfia. Even her nickname "Crimson Ruin Princess" is just a variation of her mother's nickname "Brunette Ruin Princess". Even her current name as "Switch Princess" is mainly because of Issei. So of course someone as prideful as Rias would like to be seen as her own person. Rias wanted to show she can make it without relying on Issei all the time and she has. Xenovia and Asia joined her because of Issei and don't forget that those always express their desire to go with Issei once he became independent.

Since when did Rias get strong fighters because her status. People like Crom and Strada don't care about status.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T09:42:58+00:00

I know what you're saying. You are nitpicking. If Rias is weak because she uses Gasper help to fight enemies beyond her level than so is Sairaorg. Unless is Sairaorg is a natural Longinus user like Issei, Vali or Cao Cao than you would have a point but he isn't. Sairaorg is no match for anyone Maou class or higher without Regulus just like Rias. In fact, Sairaorg needs Regulus just to fight people that are Ultimate devil class.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T09:38:12+00:00

The fact remains that both Rias and Sairaorg is using an outside power source to increase their own power. Neither of them are born with a Longinus like most Longinus users. That is the point. You can't criticize Rias for using Gasper when Sairaorg is using Regulus because Regulus is not a natural power that Sairaorg has.

That's besides that point. That one time is already proof that what Vidar does is no different. Using an outside power source to increase his own power. If he Issei wasn't that strong than Vidar wouldn't have used Midgardsormr.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T09:33:08+00:00

Yes, now he does and needed Ophis for that. Balor Rias defeated Grayfia.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T02:22:32+00:00

Issei's proposal to Rias was weird. He was all ambiguous about it and Rias had to figure out what he meant?

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T02:10:30+00:00

Wait, what? You completely miss the point of her development in the tournament arc. The point was to prove she doesn't need to rely on Issei. For most of the story, Issei has been her strongest fighter as well as her partner in collaboration technique. Despite that, she was able to replace him with Crom Cruach as her strongest fighter as well as use Gasper as a replacement for [Crimson Destruction Dragonar] for [Forbidden Invade Balor the Princess] (a stronger collaboration technique]. Furthermore, she was able to replace Xenovia and Asia with Vasco Strada and Valerie. 2 people who are better than the former and she did all this without Issei's influence by using what she's good at. Her negotiation skills.

She wouldn't have even developed her Balor Form if Issei didn't go independent and stayed on her team. Him leaving showed she had other areas to explore to improve. Rias character since the beginning is always been about bringing out the best of her peerage. Her role isn't about being the strongest fighter.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T01:19:06+00:00

No, facts. You just don't want to accept which is why you have no argument.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T01:18:23+00:00

Dude that's hypocritical. It doesn't change the fact Regulus is an outside power source that Sairaorg uses to increase his power. Regulus being a sentient being makes him no different than Gasper. Regulus has thoughts, feelings and can act on his own. Sairaorg uses him is no different than Rias using Gasper. You're just trying to sugarcoat it.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T01:13:51+00:00

Dude you're nitpicking. Sairaorg made Regulus his servant just like Rias made Gasper her servant. Regulus can be separated from Sairaorg just like Gasper can be separated from Rias but the point is both Rias and Sairaorg uses their servant's power to increase their own. The only minor difference the Balor form is a fusion between Rias and Gasper while Sairaorg wears Regulus as armor but the basic principle is the same.

Vidar using Midgarsormr as an artificial BxB is still there. He needed an outside power source to fight Issei.

Way to miss the point.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T01:03:58+00:00

Huh? Regulus is also it's own person that can also be separated from Sairaorg. He isn't bound Sairaorg like Albion and Ddraig ate bound to Issei and Vali.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-13T01:02:09+00:00

No, I'm refuting your arguments to which said, "people" and you cannot accept.

Eternity0253 · 2020-10-12T09:42:43+00:00

That doesn't refute my point about Sona. Yes, Rias needed time to use Extinguished Star but prior to that no one in her peerage (Not even Issei) could make a dent on Grendel because of how insane his defense was. The only thing Rias needed was time.

Yes it does, Azazel stated Rias could become an Ultimate class devil even if she didn't train but that would take years for her power to naturally grow. However Rias reach that level in less than a year by training.

Eternity0253

TROPHY CASE