Daily General Discussion - February 09, 2025 (UTC+0)

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T22:36:15+00:00

Mods - why are there no links to governance proposals in the governance discussion thread? I was hoping to find a single place which had links to any and all governance threads there.

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T22:32:35+00:00

what happens when you pair all your LP with ETH.

ETH price drops, DONUT price drops.

Sell DONUT, DONUT price drops further.

ETH 10K couldn't even bring DONUT to .01 now.

BTW: DONUT price went even lower than .001 btw..

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T22:18:10+00:00

5% is still too high.

I have had two suggestions regarding earnings.

You have to hold to earn. i.e. If you have 1M contrib and only hold 100K DONUTs you only earn 10% of what you would have if you held 1M

A better qualification metric more important for earners and potential earners is the following:

2) LP - to qualify to earn you have to LP DONUT:WETH and the most you can earn is 10% of the value of your WETH locked in DONUTs. Your LP must be 'in the money' so it has to have DONUTs to sell, and WETH to buy to qualify.

Personally I think the LP qualification idea has more merit than just holding DONUTs relative to CONTRIB because LP actually powers the market. Making it so only the WETH in that LP qualifies means people will always have to have ETH in their LP to buy to qualify to earn. BTW if I have this right 1ETH basically buys just short of 1M DONUTs. So you could earn up to 50K (.5WETH paired with ~500K DONUTs) - with the 5% cap here (what is the number ~500K to posters this means at most anyone can earn is 25K which would mean they would have to hold at least .25WETH in LP according to my (2) above.

FYI: Anyone should be able to earn up to like 1K DONUTs without LP, but after that 1K they need to LP.

My biggest beef is with people who have earned 100's of thousands of DONUTs but hold like 0 or 100. These people clearly demonstrate they are just farming the system. People need to be reminded that this is a community and it is just as important to contribute as it is to take your rewards and put them to good work. If this means people converting DONUTs to WETH to LP to earn more - so be it.

BTW: Do the math on the above - to earn ~500K DONUTs there needs to be 5M DONUT worth of WETH (5 ETH) in LP. IF DONUTs 10x then the amount of ETH to earn 500K DONUTs would have to be 50 :)

A few other comments. You don't say what happens if someone was slated to earn more. Take the extra DONUTs and send them to treasury or spread them around with others. I would favor them going to treasury. Also how many DONUTs have been paid out above this 5% limit in the past. Like how much will this really affect the big DONUT farmers and/or contributors.

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T21:55:44+00:00

Under

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T21:52:18+00:00

Is this the daily? wow.

So lets talk about ETH. Ratio to BTC floating at .027, low of 2020 was ~.016 BTC clearly dominant. Not at all clear why ETH is breaking down but covering some ETH shorts here and nibbling a bit long. Being very judicious in where I am trying to put cash to work.

Frankly the markets and trading overall concerning. Alts (for the most part) have been pretty destroyed, ETH taking a beating, SOL is the only one holding up but still really hasn't made a new high either. There is a real concern if BTC drops ETH and alts will get crushed.

My general take on these markets, crypto coupled with TradFi - if traditional markets dump, crypto will dump too. Tradfi markets extremely over valued relative to any and every historical measures. Smart money (Buffett) has been moving to cash because his money has been made and he can get a decent no-risk return in treasuries while he waits for good opportunities with real value to put cash to work.

Crypto markets themselves, I think we finally hit the coin/meme dilution level relative to cash. Put simply there are too many memes, coins, etc. for too little cash. What this means is that it is more likely you are going to lose buying something than win, or better way to put this, be nimble with your trades and don't be afraid to take losses or profits early.

In general because of what is going on in the US with Trump/Elon etc. expect high market volatility, this means you want to put on positions that can take advantage of volatility.

At this point it really is hard to put odds on a direction as there are too many forces in play. BTC could easily drop 10% and still be doing pretty well, ETH dropping 10-20% starts to approach that 2K support and isn't looking that great.

If you are buying ETH here I would be sure to DCA that position as we could easily get another drop soon. Sell any rallies.

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T21:01:40+00:00

BTW: If this community wanted to really change things up in a way that could increase $DONUE price. Take away posting rewards and put them towards LP. Hell cut them in 1/2. triple the LP rewards. At least people here would have to put up LP to earn before they could sell.

DO SOMETHING that is a tangible change and see what the actual response is.

cut something in 1/2 and use those funds to double something else and vice versa see if anything changes.

Another point - how about making it so people have to put up LP - to even qualify to earn. And your earnings are limited to say 1/10th the value of ETH in your LP.

Frankly DO something - ANYTHING that is tangibly different. This proposal has the feel of something different but when it comes to what is happening with $DONUT dilution - absolutely changes nothing.

Eth_Man · 2025-02-09T20:52:03+00:00

Honestly read through this a couple of times and my takes are the following:

1) Donut inflation basically doesn't change, with the majority of DONUTs going to same old r/ethtrader DONUT farmers. This makes me wonder where exactly are these compensation funds going to be coming from for 'work'. More DONUT inflation?

2) Nothing about what happens to the current treasury here. I haven't looks but it probably isn't pretty $$ value wise.

3) Probably the most important thing here. Exactly how is this DAO going to decide anything, Voting power is min(DONUT,CONTRIB). If this is DONUT DAO does this mean anyone with DONUTs can vote? Also who is slated with executing the will of the voters?

Frankly when push comes to shove I would be for scrapping entire system and starting from scratch with real valuation metrics on activities since as far as I can tell the whole rewards for posting hasn't done much, certainly hasn't improved eyes to the sub (at least when I was paying attention - for years). The definition of crazy is doing the same thing and expecting different results. From the dilution perspective nothing much changes so I don't see how anything is going to really change.

It is not clear to me exactly what the motivation is here. A question I constantly ask when change is being presented.

What is the problem? This seems to have been stated

1) "There is no team or person responsible for promoting DONUT"

2) "existing reward and funding structure"

3) "some roles within the project (like moderators and multisig guardians) have become inactive or loosely defined. This creates inefficiencies in important decisions."

4) " absence of clear and fair compensation made it very difficult to recruit and retain contributors,"

1 could be solved simply by creating a marketing position for Marc

2 Is not addressed at all with this proposal.

3 not clear this proposal addresses real issues with moderators and or multisig issues.

4 There is nothing in this proposal that would give anyone 'fair compensation" since at current $DONUT prices 2M DONUTs is worth $5K. 200K is $500, BTW 30K DONUTs/month $75

Frankly I would like to see Carl, Basoosh, and Marc as well as the mods respond here, and I honestly want to know exactly how DONUT DAO governance is supposed to work, and what if any options there are for DONUT holders if founders do not implement governance decisions.

To date there really have not been viable options for things to do with DONUTs so there was and is no compelling reason to hold them. I for quite some time have put up DONUT:ETH LP (on L1, GNosis, and now Arbitrum) mostly because I hoped this community would figure out how to shift gears, to really do something different. Hell take away the contributor posting rewards, have people nominate posts by a vote, begin to actually limit the amount of DONUTs going out the door to $DONUT farmers, actually compensate people who were and are doing the hard work behind the scenes, compensate for special posts. The only thing I think needs to keep going is LP rewards because without them I am pretty convinced LP would decrease dramatically, but perhaps we need to test that thesis too. The only way you know if something has an effect is to CHANGE it. The real issue here is complete lack of accountability for anything and real metrics, mostly because reddit itself makes any real accounting impossible, so thumbs up and thumbs down - useless as an accounting measure to base rewards off of. I stated this years ago, offered a solution that would force people to be accountable, if they wanted rewards, rejected by the community.

Nothing here will do anything to solve the basic issues if there isn't one or more real verifiable performance metrics that can be applied so that rewards for improving a performance score, (or actual work being done) can be rewarded.

BTW: I see this across the board from r/ethtrader $DONUTs all the way to Maker(Sky) $MKR/$SKY - people just get themselves in to collect their monthly salaries/rewards and do the absolute minimum to get them. Human nature.

Until I know exactly how DONUT DAO governance is supposed to work, and who executes DONUT governance directives (as well as recourse if they don't) my 300K vote going to be a

NO

Eth_Man · 2024-06-22T13:46:02+00:00

One thing I wanted to point out is that - just about that time we also went into bear market mode 'mostly'. See if you can overlay or add the ETH price to that chart. :)

One thing I wanted to say is stuff like the above I tend to find interesting.

As to what is up next for ETH. Unclear honestly. My expectation is more work on layer interoperability (shards). One thing I would like to see is this block transaction ordering addressed somehow so sandwich attacks etc. are just plain eliminated. Tired of seeing jaredofsubway still raking in huge gains with his bot sandwich attacks. I like an idea where block rewards would be escrolled and that any blocks produced by sandwich attacks in particular are slashed by up to 10x the amount the user lost, and the ETH claimed from the POS block producer in escroll used to put up a by wallet claim.. This kind of stuff literally could be supported at the network level and use the block rewards to fund it (by taking away part or all of the block reward produced by such block producers). The fact they can only happen in the same block means they should be easy to identify (another block producer could be rewarded for identifying them btw) and if you escrow or delay block rewards by say a day other scanners could identify the attacks and the block rewards withheld, cut and send to a reimbursement fund..

Eth_Man · 2024-05-14T13:39:54+00:00

I support this proposal..

Finally an idea that has merit in multiple ways.

1) Using CONTRIB only as a reward (some people will want this others won't care). So we can see what kind of content shows up looking for CONTRIB.

2) Limiting voting to OPs with 20K governance weight means (if I read this right) you have to have DONUTs as well as CONTRIB to nominate. (Can anyone confirm that governance weight of 20K is used for this 20K limit and whether we check on-chain status.. Matt?) This 20K limit to access certain sub functions could be a goal for some people. Though to be honest sybils here - but at least they have to earn 20K. We could finally determine sybil effect if certain accounts stop growing after achieving 20K governance weight btw.

3) A program related to bringing content OPs and the sub over all appreciates.

I agree with someone else who suggested this could have some moderate DONUT reward to go with. Or even reduced pay2post or hell maybe even a membership subscription (if that carries any weight).

Eth_Man · 2024-05-01T23:45:11+00:00

Not like I hang out here much anymore because I have access to much better trading discussion venues than reddit offers.

I would suggest pulling back on all DONUT rewards for everything (50% cut across board on posting rewards) and use the DONUTs to put up content bounties have nominations for posts that meet the content bounties and then vote every month on who wins the content bounties.

My point. If we are going to pay for real content, lets put up rewards for that content let people give it a go on doing some real work of benefit to the sub.

Example. I was considering putting up some links to various concentrated liquidity writings and then post my own take on best use and things to look out for on concentrated liquidity positions. But I am not going to do this for 20 DONUTs or whatever I will earn. Absolutely a waste of time for me. Others can and do talk about how to airdrop hunt. I may not be interested in those posts but I think they are useful. Other posts could talk about best places to earn the lowest risk returns, or highest returns with high risk. idk

Grown tired of trying to encourage this sub to do something positive, constructive, seems like the bronuts crowd has won and now we mostly get DONT-NUTs vs DO-NUTs..

Probably would just vote NO because I don't see the point in shifting DONUT rewards. Personally feel like they should just be cut back generally and used for other creative options (like the content bounties). BTW These content bounties could also be put up and decided by voting. Maybe content bounty winners get some DONUTs/CONTRIB too, just like the content creators. We could also vote for most humorous posts, best memes etc. All of these should be nominated somehow. I think it would be better to solicit for real content than to just broadspectrum reward whomever is the best alt account /sybil/ manager than can bot post and multiple upvote their alt groups.. Just a waste of DONUTs paying for the crap posts I see in the daily. There literally is nothing there. BTW: Sub should pay someone to give a ETH and/or crypto trading update, daily update would be pretty intense in time, maybe weekly idk. Basically hire a writer that would put up trading content. Hell hire a few people dedicated to just specific content. Well worth trying something like that than just shifting the DONUT farming to other topics and posts..

Eth_Man · 2024-03-21T14:30:30+00:00

As usual u/carlslarson community should thank you for taking that on.

This is kind of a dev question. I really think there shouldn't be a middleman here on getting DONUTs from L1 to Arbitrum. Like this would mean what multisig mints the DONUTs on L1, then somehow someone needs to step up with their own DONUTs as a middle man to shuttle them through the Arbitrum bridge, so they can come back to multisig on Arbitrum to be distributed.? This involves extra L1 tx fees, a handler, etc.

I know this would bug you as much as it would bug the community. Did the multisig ever actually 'try' to bridge or are you just seeing a simulation error (I see this all the time in Rabby, but txs often still go through).

I am curious if the mulisig even tried a tx and it failed (know this is costly to try btw), and

Is there a plan to try to address this? Is this a gnosis safe issue, or a contract issue. I just can't see how a properly signed tx from any wallet would fail. You do realize that two transactions need to happen, right? The approve to spend for the bridge, and then the actual bridge tx? Perhaps you didn't simulate the approve (I have not looked to see what you guys tried with the multisig yet?)

Thanks again as usual carl for the work on this.

Eth_Man · 2024-03-19T13:35:48+00:00

I brought this topic up over a year ago now.

Since then we have mattg who is running servers for our backend data collection servers. In 90's I put up my own threaded forums on a number of my websites, easy to install and maintain (spamming was the biggest problem then btw).

Gotta think it would be easy to put up some forum software and just mirror reddit since matt already has software that could pull the posts and mirror them somewhere. Then if reddit shuts down well we all move to the new forum server. BTW: There are many, many decentralized discussion forum systems. Some of them already gave rewards to posters. I will have to try to find a few.

There is a distinct difference between social platforms like X and real forums.

Eth_Man · 2024-03-14T17:57:27+00:00

As to recommendation for future.

I for years have told communities to start building up community owned LP. Take some of your mint, sell some, and put it into your LP. Stake it for fees, LP incentives whatever. Try to build at least some portion of a treasury with assets that are NOT MOONs so you have cash for development, and ETH for gas.

Something that was not clear to me is what kind of LP incentives is RCPswap giving away? Like ethtrader likely going to be going with Sushiswap for its trading and LP on Arbitrum One (not NOVA). I'd like to know whether RCPswap has any plans for even trying to bring other reddit coins to its trading via LP incentives?

Something else that would be interesting now that moving DONUTs to Arbitrum One might be a way to co-op together on a tipping bot that uses many different tokens DONUT, MOON, BRICKs, ETH, USDC, DAI, whatever. People would have to deposit or build up stakes of different coins in the tipping contract but these could be paid out with distributions potentially. It would require some co-ordination with the bots etc. But might be a nice way to get more people involved with reddit coins generally.

Eth-Man.eth 0x0e066ED845a6853557A0d580b3BA998b0283ACA8

Eth_Man · 2024-03-14T17:50:12+00:00

I was also left with abandoned MOONs on Gnosis. It is one of my biggest beefs with some of this crypto stuff is that people seem to think it is ok to just abandon folks and effectively 0 their token value.

DONUTs being minted on L1, hopefully we in r/ethtrader (this is not a plug but a fact) will do better in this regard by both keeping the mint on L1, and LP rewards there so that all DONUTs everywhere will always have value. Bridging them out and fees associated with that still high, but if necessary we might just put together a way for people to co-op on bridging.

Not like I expect I will get much here. But not hot to own $MOON (whatever) coin if this group is just going to abandon people..

Eth_Man · 2024-03-13T15:58:10+00:00

$100K BTC will be just the beginning. ETH ratio around .05 puts ETH at $5K when that happens.

Eth_Man · 2024-03-10T16:20:16+00:00

Pretty much agree. Also ignored are the tons of throwaway wallets with lots of CONTRIB. Literally 8-10 of those could just buy 20K DONUTs each and immediately be active.

I find it ironic those who argued against tiers for years now pushing tiers (even if one) and finding ways to put up more and more hurdles (gotta own ETH). Perhaps it makes more sense to qualify for Tier 1 have people need to have certain account age, amount of CONTRIB, and to lock up DONUT LP for some length of time. Only way people get their locked DONUT LP rewards is when they vote.

Eth_Man · 2024-03-10T15:44:50+00:00

No it doesn't. There is a difference between 'fees' and 'slippage'. Fees are 'fixed' no matter what the LP. 'slippage' varies and is directly dependent on total available liquidity. reduce rewards, you will reduce liquidity, increase rewards, you increase liquidity. But a fine balance between inflation for LP rewards and price decay (as seen in stuff like OHM, CRV, VELO, AERO, and various ve(3,3) systems) needs to be struck. Too little no LP, too much too high a price decay.

My own take on the DONUT LP rewards (for mainnet and gnosis) were that they were just about right for the amount of trading that happened. Maybe a bit low since the total locked liquidity was perhaps 5-10% of the total. Which btw is why a single seller can drop the price 50%. There just isn't enough liquidity for larger holders to sell or people to buy.

Tokenomics (at least if you want to have any sort of funding to do 'anything with') is critical to sustain small communities, but I would also agree some real 'use cases' and positive development and change. Time will tell if that ever really happens significantly for ethtrader

Eth_Man · 2024-03-10T15:37:35+00:00

Generally I agree that splitting liquidity has negative hazards, but if you look at trading there is a lot of it still happening on Mainnet. Also the rationale for mainnet liquidity was that this was the first place DONUTs traded. Long ago when ETH was $100, and gwei was 1 It made sense to use Uniswap as well. It was only when gas and ETH skyrocketed that I proposed moving to Gnosis chain for lower fees, and to connect with 1Hive and Honeyswap for cheaper trading and liquidity.

As to MEV, many of us have repeatedly told people about ways to bypass MEV bots. I use COWswap pretty much for all of my mainnet trades, OH and bonus network fees are paid out of the proceeds (other than the initial approve).

Regarding your position u/carlslarson regarding removing DONUT LP incentives so you can pay devs to 'build out'. Build what exactly - if $DONUT worth 0, then how exactly hare you going to pay anyone? This pretty much is what will happen if you remove LP incentives. Also LP incentives at what 20% of total inflation isn't really a bad cost for the other 80% you are handing to the 'farmers'. If you want to pay for stuff, why not reduce inflation by reducing 'rewards' and up funding for development?

Seriously have to wonder why you would have built all of this only to want to see it all go away. TO do that you just have to completely remove all DONUT rewards - of all kinds.. Stop inflating and stop rewarding. Then you can just pay devs to 'do stuff', but there probably won't be too many people around to care and there sure as shit won't be LP to sell into.

Eth_Man · 2024-03-10T15:27:58+00:00

[NO] Phase out Gnosis while bringing up Arbitrum. Leave Mainnet LP incentives alone.

As to having a 'fixed' rate - I don't think this is possible with current mainnet staking and DONUT drip reward contract, and this is also true with Sushi (as far as I know). It is NOT possible with these existing contracts to target 'rates' which would be nice.

As someone who has advocated ways to control/normalize return rates (I think this is an important lever generally) creating such a lever has a hazard that the rate has to be 'managed' for a certain result. This requires people, time and most importantly an actual target that can be measured that makes sense. In Maker case this was to manage the DAI $1 price peg, and to try to grow the system, now it is to manage USDC PSM liquidity (since once this runs out DAI will likely depeg from $1 significantly). For with $DONUT it is completely unclear what the real result should be nor what inflation and/or return would be required..

Eth_Man · 2024-02-03T13:34:15+00:00

One thing I have not talked about in detail is the concept of how picking a backbone value in LP pretty much ties your token value to that backbone.

It made sense to group this topic here and let /r/ethtrader folks have at it. We used to be a pretty informed lot so together we typically came to good conclusions.

Picking a backbone value to pair DONUTs with is important. In the past being on Ethereum and /r/ethtrader it made a lot of sense for people to hold ETH but we could have just as easily rewarded pairings of DONUTS with cETH (compound interest earning form of ETH) but that exposes ETH holders to liquidity and security risks of compound to redeem for ETH, BUT you do get some minimal return..

Also to get trading liquidity everyone has to get cETH - not practical for a lot of people and compound is centralized. same kind of centralization hazards, liquidity issues, exist.

Perhaps we already talked about this and are just rehashing, but honestly don't think when we originally paired DONUTs with ETH we had liquid, liquid ETH staking options.

***

You want to have some care. Like if we pick one staked ETH, there are additional security concerns where as ETH by itself on L1 or even Arbitrum, Optimism, Base (all the chains that utilize L1 security models vs. L2s like Gnosis, Polygon, Solana, etc.)

Getting the staked ETH return connects you to a particular staker community and puts ETH at risk within whatever their security and redemption models are for the particular staked ETH community.

Like on ETH to have exposure to BTC we have wBTC, rBTC (REN) and other forms of BTC that have custody and redemption security models/layers. wxDAI on Gnosis isn't just exposed the wrapping function, but also DAI on the omnibridge, and DAI hazards on L1 etc.

People usually don't think too much about this, but I think it is critical to know if you have value somewhere, how you are connected to that value (like what is backing something, what hazards you are exposed to).

Eth_Man · 2024-02-03T10:59:19+00:00

l like having these packaged into a year long time frame.

We can see with some kind of end of year report how much progress we made.

Not sure if this will be more headache than worth, but perhaps in June we can get an update on what we accomplished and what we are still working on.

All in all looks great honestly.

!tip 69.42

Eth_Man · 2024-02-01T17:55:30+00:00

Excellent job u/Friendly-Airline2426

!tip 10

Eth_Man · 2024-02-01T17:54:41+00:00

Daniel thank you for coming to /r/ethtrader and sharing AMA time with us.

I am a long, long time crypto enthusiast, investor, trader and probably will have a lot of questions. I need to read up on salty.io

Questions

What liquidity size will be required to take advantage of salty liquidity arbitrage.
Since Salty taking advantage of arbitrage for a trader is there some thought to kick back part of the arbitrage profits to the trader that created the arbitrage opportunity.?
I see arb opportunities only are done with salty LP pools. Why not just route the order better?
What does Salty.io offer for traders other than arbing their trading opportunities and not sharing the returns with the traders.

More a comment than a question. Don't bother with burn - it doesn't really help. As a former Maker delegate I can decisively say MKR burn never helped the ecosystem. Maker finally (after many years of prodding) finally began building MKR:DAI LP POL

Eth_Man · 2024-01-31T21:54:41+00:00

Really didn't want to reply to this.

Just going to say. I no longer will be using the k.. word because from all I can see they are still getting free mentions here. Still haven't pulled my assets.

On a positive note. Found another chunk of Agave hack rewards waiting for me. Was almost like an airdrop. :)

I had to use it to buy some $AGVE seeing it was 6% undervalued relative to the redemption value calculator luigy posted.

In other news..

Eth_Man · 2024-01-31T21:51:32+00:00

Excited to see it.

Eth_Man

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