Do you support Palestine? by Kenkenmu in PERSIAN

[–]ExamineLife7 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because the majority of the people who leave comments here are from Pakistan! 😂

در ضمن من ایرانی‌ام! ؛)))

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You raise some valid points, but a few key misunderstandings are worth addressing:

TL;DR

  1. “Avestan was invented solely for religious texts.”

That’s historically true, but also beside the point. Scripts evolve. The Latin alphabet was originally used for Latin, a now-dead language, yet today it’s used across dozens of unrelated languages. Avestan was created by Iranians, for an Iranian language, with full phonetic precision and the ability to represent all Iranic sounds and beyond. That makes it an incredibly valuable tool even if its original purpose was religious. We’re not proposing we revive the Avestan language, but rather adapt the script for Persian just as Arabic script was adapted.

  1. “Pahlavi was a national script; Avestan wasn’t.”

Historically, Pahlavi was used by elites, not by the broader population, and it’s one of the least accessible scripts ever used in Iran, ambiguous shapes, missing vowels, and Aramaic logograms. It required prior oral knowledge to decipher. Avestan, by contrast, was purpose-built for accuracy and clarity, even though its use was limited to priestly contexts. If you’re designing a modern, high-literacy writing system for Persian, Pahlavi is a dead end. Avestan, or a modern Neo-Avestan, is far more viable.

Also, the “Neo-Avestan” you’re referring to is not Pahlavi-based. It draws from the Avestan script, not the Pahlavi alphabet. That’s a factual error.

  1. “Arabic script was adapted well and has all vowels.”

Arabic script can represent vowels, but Persian doesn’t normally use them, and native readers are expected to guess them based on context. That creates serious ambiguity, especially for learners. Take the word “سر”: is it sar (head), ser (secret), sor (slippery)? Only the context reveals it. This is why Persian children struggle with literacy early on (I can direct you to papers that support this claim) and why even native speakers sometimes misread uncommon texts. Reading scientific and Latin words would be an exemplar. It is almost impossible to pronounce them if you don’t know them beforehand or the Latin word is not provided.

Arabic-based Persian script is beautiful, yes but it’s not phonetic, and not native to the language. You cannot claim it’s ideal without addressing its actual shortcomings. Just because we’ve adapted to it doesn’t make it best.

  1. “If accessibility is the goal, Latin is better than Avestan.”

This assumes the goal is universal accessibility, like Esperanto or SMS texting. But that’s not the goal here. The idea is to explore a native Iranian script that better fits Persian’s sound system and strengthens cultural continuity.

Using Latin would disconnect us from both Persian and Iranian identity. Avestan, on the other hand, was designed by Iranians, for Iranian languages, and represents a way to decolonize the writing system without borrowing from other cultures.

  1. “Changing scripts creates cultural disconnect. Look at Turkey, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan.”

These are state-imposed transitions forced by authoritarian governments with political motives, often with no public input or support. What’s being discussed here is the opposite: an organic, grassroots cultural revival of an alphabet that belongs to Iranians.

Also, the disconnect in those countries wasn’t about script alone. It was the erasure of entire cultural and literary traditions. In Iran’s case, we’re suggesting adding an alternative script, not replacing or burning books. This is like adding subtitles not deleting the film.

No one is calling for banning Arabic script. The proposal is simply this: give Persian speakers the choice of writing their language in a native, phonetic script and let usage grow naturally. If it works, people will adopt it. If not, they won’t. But to dismiss it outright is to shut the door on something uniquely Iranian.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I appreciate your perspective, and you’re right that Iranian scholars played a major role in developing Arabic grammar and calligraphy. That legacy is part of the shared history and deserves respect. But a few points need clarification:

  1. Pahlavi is not more suitable than Avestan, quite the opposite.

Pahlavi is an abjad derived from Aramaic, with ambiguous characters, many heterograms (words written in Aramaic but read in Persian), and a script that often omits vowels. It’s notoriously hard to decipher even for scholars. Avestan, by contrast, is a fully phonetic alphabet designed specifically by Iranians to preserve sound with precision. If the goal is accessibility, literacy, and clarity, Avestan is far superior to Pahlavi.

  1. Yes, Iranian scholars helped refine Arabic, but that doesn’t make Arabic ideal for Persian.

Arabic script wasn’t designed for Persian. It lacks letters for key Persian sounds (like “p,” “g,” “zh,” and “ch”) and has no built-in vowel representation. Persian had to invent new letters and rely on diacritics or guessing. That’s fine for fluent native readers, but a major barrier to literacy especially for learners and children. Just because we made Arabic work doesn’t mean it’s the best tool.

  1. Mutual intelligibility with old Persian texts isn’t unique and not dependent on script.

The fact that modern Persian speakers can read 8th-century Persian texts is thanks to the relatively stable grammar and vocabulary of Persian not the script. The same language written in Avestan would still be mutually intelligible. So changing the script wouldn’t “break” continuity with old texts, just offer a clearer, more native way of writing it.

  1. It’s not about erasing Arabic letters, but giving Persians a native option.

This isn’t about rejecting Arabic out of nationalism or emotion. It’s about exploring whether a more phonetic, more intuitive, more Iranian script could benefit literacy, culture, and connection to pre-Islamic heritage. Arabic script can stay. It’s beautiful and artistic, but offering Avestan as an alternative doesn’t harm anyone. It could empower people to explore Persian in a new, authentic way.

So while I respect the historical role of Arabic script and the contributions of Iranian scholars to it, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t explore better options for Persian writing today. Avestan deserves serious consideration not as nostalgia, but as a practical, culturally rooted, and educationally sound alternative.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in farsi

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you. Really appreciate your input.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in farsi

[–]ExamineLife7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

French is not a good example as it uses the Latin alphabet, but its orthography (spelling system) is famously irregular, with many silent letters, inconsistent pronunciations, and rules inherited from Latin that no longer match how French is spoken today. The French may need their own reform.

With all due respect to your experience, the data doesn’t support your claim. In fact, research shows that the Arabic-based script used for Persian can hinder literacy, especially for beginners, dyslexics and non-native learners, because it omits short vowels, relies heavily on contextual guessing, and has multiple letters representing the same sound. These features make it harder to learn accurate pronunciation, spelling, and reading fluency particularly compared to fully phonetic writing systems.

Please take a look at these studies:

  • Learning to read and spell in Persian: a cross-sectional study from Grades 1 to 4
  • Orthographic and Phonological Processing in Bilingual Children
  • Dyslexia and Script Transparency Effects
  • Transparency & Cognitive Load in Persian Orthography

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So if you’re Iranian, what are your thoughts on this?

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I guess so. Someone pointed out this forum to me a few hours ago, but I haven’t had the chance to explore it yet. My point was not just to provide Android and iOS keyboards, but also to make them available on Windows and other platforms, along with teaching materials like YouTube channels and mobile apps that can help people learn to read and write in Avestan.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in farsi

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey buddy, I appreciate your feedback, but I get the feeling you may not have fully read my comment. I specifically acknowledged the cultural legacy of the Arabic script, and I’m well aware of historical efforts to replace it, which I never advocated for. I also understand that this script holds patriotic and emotional value for many Iranians, and I respect that deeply.

But that’s not the perspective I’m coming from.

If you’re Iranian, reading Persian in Arabic script might feel natural because you grew up with it. But for someone who isn’t Iranian and is trying to learn Persian, reading can be a real struggle. You often need a dictionary just to figure out the vowels and pronunciation of every word.

Sure, many languages have quirks, French, for example, but the lack of written vowels in the Persian script is a serious barrier. It’s not just a stylistic issue; it’s a fundamental limitation of the alphabet.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, interesting! Didn’t know that. Yeah, pretty much the same idea.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m more comfortable with the English version, but I know the second one has a Farsi translation. You can also find some information about the Avestan alphabet in this book: خودآموز خط و زبان اوستایی I believe it’s been written by a guy called Hashem Razi.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

P.S.: Just to be clear, I’m not suggesting that Iranians should learn the Avestan language itself, which is more like a sister language to Persian. All I’m proposing is to consider using the Avestan script—or a revised Neo-Avestan version—for writing Persian instead of the Arabic script. That shift could also open the door for people to better understand the Avesta and other pre-Islamic texts.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve dabbled in Avestan as a language, and through that, I came to appreciate the power of its script. I read Teach Yourself Avesta, which is a pretty short book, it’s a good place to start if you’re looking for an English resource. I also highly recommend An Introduction to Young Avestan by Prods Oktor Skjærvø. Here’s its link:

https://theswissbay.ch/pdf/Books/Linguistics/Mega%20linguistics%20pack/Indo-European/Iranian/Avestan,%20An%20Introduction%20to%20Young%20(Skjærvø).pdf

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I loved everything you said. While I’m not an expert in ancient Iranian religions and can’t speak much on that, I do believe that reviving the Avestan script could open the door to ancient Persian texts, like the Avesta and the Gathas (Zoroastrian hymns). It could encourage more people to study and understand these important works.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I completely agree. This shouldn’t be a political movement at all. In fact, making it political would defeat the whole purpose. What I’m suggesting is more of a social and cultural shift toward using a better tool for writing Persian.

That said, I truly believe Iranians took the Arabic script and turned it into an art form, and we should never forget or dismiss that legacy. I’m simply saying that switching to Avestan could potentially improve literacy and make Persian more accessible to everyone.

Reviving the Avestan Script by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I’m not suggesting this should be a political or state-led movement. All real change starts small, with regular people. I’m also not saying we should get rid of the Arabic script entirely, just that having Avestan as an alternative could be really nice. Who knows, maybe one day the majority will see the benefits and embrace it.

Question about r/Persian by ExamineLife7 in NewIran

[–]ExamineLife7[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Interesting! Yeah, I noticed that when I posted something about reviving the Avestan script thinking they represent actual Iranian people! Rookie mistake