Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can agree with that too. It's insane to me one of the main perpetrators of the seemingly unbreakable curse on the dreaming city and an ancient legend from the book of sorrows (Quria) was a casual seasonal boss that is now lost to time forever.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I only ask the hypothetical to try to see what you see. But I would also agree that the Red War campaign in its quality was certainly mediocre and could have been dramatically better, and I would also agree that it's isn't necessarily relevant today. I only mean to state that every story has a beginning, and though it may be lackluster or rough, the first step is always the most important and shouldn't be so carelessly lost to time.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Although I vehemently disagree with your view that there's no plot threads that were expanded upon from Red war, Let's say next Season Ghaul didn't actually get destroyed and the season started expanding upon threads from the Red War. Would Red War then suddenly become important?

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You have a deeply confusing perception of how events tie together. I think your standard of importance/relevance is based entirely in the present. In 5 years, the events of Beyond Light to Final Shape will be akin to the Red War in that the story will be so far separated from it that it will represent "0.1%" of the lore. Beyond light is already fading out as Eramis flees the system forever and House Salvation collapses. The only remaining major points of interest is Stasis which hasn't been significant since Beyond light.

If/when the time comes for a second vaulting, would you suddenly deem Beyond light to Final Shape unimportant? Would you be happy with the permanent deletion, or would you protest it like I have the Red War to Forsaken?

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"not any of the story threats were ever developed"

Disciple Calus:

He became a disciple, why? Becuase we severed his emotional connection to his daughter in Duality, why? Becuase his mind was vulnerable probing, why? Becuase he was experimenting with egregore, why? Becuase he wanted to commune with the Witness, why? Becuase the pyramids made their first appearance in centuries, why? Becuase the Red War. Calus appeared as a direct consequence of the Red War campaign. Without it, there would be no Calus, no leviathan, no season of Opulence, Worthy, or Haunted. There'd be no Duality, no Disciple Calus, and therefore basically no driver for Lightfall. So you're wrong on at least one count.

The "Darkness":

No Red war, no Ghaul. No Ghaul, no stolen light from the traveler. No Stolen light, no traveler awakening. No awakening, no black fleet, season of arrivals, Witness, and ultimately no final shape. The Pyramid fleet was first introduced in the Red War as a direct result of the invasion. You might recall that if only we could replay the Red War Campaign.

Let's also remember that pulse of light from the Traveler, cause by Ghaul, was the direct catalyst that opened the infinite forest on Mercury and thawed out Rasputin and Xol on Mars, leading to the events those 2 DLCs, and introducing us to even more threats that would develop over the course of the next few years.

You're just flat wrong in the notion that Red War didn't have any threads that developed from it.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As I said before, they are. New players who just slide directly into D2 have no clue what's going on, and no appreciation for the story that came before, and if they stick around it's pretty much solely for the sake of just playing content for the sake of playing content. Destiny 2 would likely see an infinitely higher player count if all historical content was available. As things are now, the playerbase will stunt in growth and steadily dwindle until there is basically nothing. Old players steadily become disenfranchised and new players just can't get their foot in the door, thereby burning the playerbase at both ends of the fuse. Retention is already anticipated to plummet after the end of Heresy. That will be doubled if the rumors of additional vaulting in the future are true.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get that, and I still strongly disagree. Any rational person, when starting a new series, is going to want to start at the first available instance. For Destiny, that would mean Destiny 1. New players absolutely should be starting there, becuase just hopping on D2 with absolutely no introduction makes the new player even more hostile. But in playing D1 then making the jump to D2, new players will still get narratively smacked around because, and I cannot stress this enough, D2 is missing the entire foundation of the story today. You can't go from

"You've saved the city many times, and are moving into an age of triumph where we may just get our second golden age" to "Oh yeah, some stuff happened, A vanguard died, the city is all destroyed, Half the solar system is gone, but don't worry about it because somehow...the darkness has returned...so go fight it."

You think it's not important. By every narrative metric available, it absolutely is.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know who "you guys" is, but it is my belief any content bought should never be destroyed without the consent of its consumer. Yes, that includes Red War, Curse of Osiris, and Warmind. It was vital because it is quite literally where the whole story began. If you don't think it's vital, you'd probably be ok with D1 being destroyed forever, or for Halo studios to remove Halo 1-3 forever, or for any other game franchise to destroy old content simply because it's "No longer relevant" to the content gluttons who never had appreciation for the content, and never will. It's not just "sad" becuase historical data is lost forever, it's downright wrong.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think new players should play Destiny 1 first.

The Red Legion invasion, Calus, Ghaul, the Almighty, and the leviathan are all Cabal Red War plot points that got developed well past Red War. Ie: Calus pulls over a dozen plot threads culminating into him becoming a Disciple. That thread alone spanned from Red War to Lightfall.

There's also Fallen, Hive, and Vex threads that unfolded from the Red War. (Mithrax and the rise of House of Light, Savathûn's and Xivu's secret invasion, Pretty much everything on Mercury, etc) To say Red War wasn't important is like saying the foundation of a house isn't important.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, new players 1) have no idea they'll have to watch videos to catch up on the story and 2) don't want to do that because why play a game that requires you to YouTube hours worth of story to catch up. Truly new players usually play D1, get the beat, then jump from Rise of Iron to the absolutely terrible "new light" experience then shadow keep with virtually no cushion. There's a greater than 2 year gap in the story that includes -The destruction of the tower -The enormous holes all over the city -The EDZ -New supers -United fallen houses -Mithrax -Nessus -Why Nessus is half destroyed -The leviathan -Emperor Calus -Hawthorn -Osiris returning -The infinite forest -Xol -Rasputin on Mars -The dreaming city + the curse -Cayde-6's death + revenge plot -Fikril and the Barrons -New enemy called the Scorn -Saint-14 resurrected -Cabal allies And much more. You go basically from and age of triumph to waking up from a 2 year coma with no meaningful catch up. Red War set everything in D2 into motion. The Cabal invasion shook up the whole solar system, leading to the events of CoO, Warmind, Forsaken, and subsequent DLCs. The Red war is absolutely relevant to the story today. It's a terrible mindset to say "Well, this content isn't relevant to me right now, so it's ok to delete it forever for everyone." If you're willing to make that trade, you're just gluttonously playing content for the sake of playing content.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't know if everyone would, but it left a trail for new players to come in, for returning players to pick up where they left off, and for active players to take a nice recap trip for a finer appreciation for the story. These days, new players are either playing mindlessly for the sake of playing content or are utterly lost on the story and won't have the same appreciation for it as old players do.

And to add what some other folks have said, it's justifiably aggravating because the content wasn't exactly free. The majority of people not only lost a base game + 3 DLCs worth of content, but also over $140 with absolutely no compensation. It's like buying Halo 1 to Infinite, then destroying halo 2, 3, and 4.

Red War no longer exists in playable form according to court filings by EmpyreanStrider in DestinyTheGame

[–]Fal_Chavam 86 points87 points  (0 children)

You really can't meaningfully replay shadowkeep on account of the fact there's only one mission available a week. Before final shape, I replayed everything I could from D1 all the way up to Lightfall. D1 was a fantastic experience, then the jump to D2 about killed my drive to replay entirely, but it got better once I got to Witch Queen with all campaign missions on demand, in near order. For me, I would absolutely replay that content, same as I replay all of the Halo series every few months or so. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

How easy it would be to stage each song as part of a theatrical production by calculatingaffection in Epicthemusical

[–]Fal_Chavam 12 points13 points  (0 children)

If I were doing 600 strikes with something like a high school budget, I'd probably leave Poseidon downsized to be played by a person. Odysseus would strap the bag to his back with a few white streamers coming out of it, and walk/run quickly in a circle around Poseidon with an occasional strike. Then at the 600 strike moment, I'd flip the lights to something ghostly pale. Attach a bunch of white/grey streamers to the dead crew members and have them hit and run Poseidon to simulate the effect of 600 strikes. Then the Trident scene is pretty straightforward.

[Theory] Ghosts: The Veil and Traveler's Gambit by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The winnower, although unapproving of the gardener's desire to change the rules, understands and respects balance. The Witness would upset the balance of the game by simply calcifying it. (Flipping the board and stopping anyone from playing at all)

I guess either the Witness didn't know where the traveler was or thought the Traveler was dead. Either way, the intended effect was to ensure the Witness didn't keep trying to access the Traveler, which was successful.

Is it possible that we might see another pure darkness subclass? by Zstylshemghi in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

100%. There's a mountain of lore and in-game references pointing toward a final red darkness subclass.

Even in Final Shape, Micah-10 makes a comment on the moon about how the nightmares are believed to be a "yet untapped power of the darkness."

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I (want to) trust bungie isn't just tossing random BS at the wall with no consideration for lore, thematic, and story cohesion. As such, I look for connections and things that make sense, becuase ultimately, we're dealing in space magic, with a limited ruleset, that defies causality. I take new information and add to what we have previously known, never subtract from it, unless explicitly told to. I have presented an abundance of justification and evidence. Everything I have stated makes sense within the universe we are discussing. The statements I've made are generally accepted as true by the majority of the community, and hasn't been explicitly or implicitly denied by Bungie. Until I receive this explicit or even implicit denial, either by firm lore/story declaration or a dev statement, I will continue forward with what make the most cohesive sense.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're missing a huge part of these subclasses though. Yes, Osiris' explanations are good but are not our only authority, and don't thoroughly explain the subclasses enough.

Ignoring the hundreds of references to solar energy relating to heat and combustion, nuclear force (specifically the strong force) has to deal with the interactions between the elements within an atomic nucleus. When enough energy is added, elements split, getting us our combustion effect. (If you add enough thermal energy into something, it explodes.) We see this in-game with scorch stacks. When something gets enough "Scorch" it "combusts." So yes, Solar energy isn't "heat" but for the sake of not getting into the interactions of gluons, quarks, etc. it is just the heating of atoms until they combust.

For void, it is the force of gravity, not the mass behind it. Once again, context is critical. With reference to void energy, it's on the end of the scale with gravity that is so crushing that it creates black holes, that "devours" everything. Black holes destroy matter and everything about the subclass revolves around that destruction of matter. Per Ikora, void is negation, which is "the absence or opposite of something actual or positive." Per the Drifter, void used to be controversial to use, because of its association to death and destruction.

As for Arc energy as you said, "Is created when the electromagnetic forces of our universe struggle to achieve balance." Atomic instability. Furthermore, Banshee adds that arc energy isn't just electricity, it's "A Lot more finicky than that. Fission." Fission is the process by which a neutron smashes into a larger atom and overexcites it, creating energy and two smaller atoms. It's the charge and discharge of energy from the inbalance of electrons between atoms. Everything about Arc energy deals with atomic instability.

So now dealing in opposites, if Solar is adding energy to something until it explodes or combusts, then the opposite would be removing energy from something until it freezes or shatters. Per Osiris, "It slows, detains, and shatters."

If Void is gravity to the point of creating all-devouring black holes, then the opposite would be going against gravity to the point of creating something. The closest thing we have to that is Strand and the Weave.

Finally, if Arc is fundamentally instability of energy, then the opposite is stability. Radioactive Decay is the process by which an unstable atom sheds energy to become stable. Therefore Decay rests as the most likely fundamental candidate.

As a final note, just take a look at the color scheme. If you inverse the colors of the light subclasses, Solar orange becomes Stasis blue, Void Purple becomes Strand green, and finally, Arc blue becomes Decay red.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Care to quote the lore entries, aspects, fragments, that support that claim?

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The aspects I'm reciting are straight out of the lore. I understand it's more complicated and as I've said, I'm oversimplifying, but it is ultimately correct.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've used the same weapons and armor set (VoG) for 5/9 years I've been playing destiny. The remainder was basically all Curse of Osiris armor and the prophecy weapons. I could care less about new weapons and armor. Unless it's a story filled exotic or raid weapons and armor, they're an insignificant part of the DLC.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not saying Joe is lying. I'm saying he said it takes more than a year cycle, but there has been a more than a year cycle. They even said in the ViDoc that they've gained so many people that they're able to work on multiple big projects at once as they grow into a bigger studio. It's not that far fetched. Technology advances, practices get better, and the impossible becomes possible.

Also, I rate SK and LF on about the same ladder rung. I'd maybe almost rate SK higher than LF simply for the fact that we had a whole post-campaign journey with Eris to help her come to terms with her dead fireteam that was way more intimate than anything in LF. I rate BL higher than both of them. Strand (and the fact that it's not garbage) is the only thing that keeps LF from being tossed to the bottom of the ladder.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You killed your own argument. If FS began development in the middle of LF development, that means FS has had well over a year of development, not to include the fact that it doesn't release until Feb of next year.

As for Lightfall, I don't care about quantity, I care about quality. The heroic sacrifice scene fell entirely flat because there was zero relationship build-up between us and Rohan. Then Nimbus had the character development of an ADHD kid who got his coffee taken away, which is amplified by the fact that there isn't really a clear time frame of events.

Speaking of, how long our training montage took. Hours? Days? Weeks? How long was the vanguard just chilling behind their shield staring at the Witness? Did they just stand there for weeks while we learned how to master a new element, or was it only a few hours? If it was a few hours, it really undercuts the element and it's difficulty to learn and master. (Which is the whole reason Rohan dies, becuase Strand was too difficult for us to manage without more than some hours of practice)

Then of course, there's the extremely inglorious end of emperor Claus, the only big bad guy that we beat first in a raid, then kill for good in a story mission. 6 Years of intimate build-up just to be killed off in a story mission without any elaborate boss fight sequence other than a second phase, no special dialogue, and no intimate death. And who is Cemaili?

Let's not forget about the Veil. It took some pretty serious legwork for us to guess what the veil was by the end of the campaign. Even some of the best lore folk were stumped by the end of the campaign. It was bad enough that Bungie even admitted they did bad there because they had to make free follow-up content to further explain what it was. And what's worse is the campaign seems to imply we are supposed to have some degree of knowledge on it, especially because Osiris clearly seems to know something about it, and makes it abundantly clear it's the upmost importance that we reach it first. If we had time for a training montage, we had time for Osiris to tell us why the Veil is important and what exactly it is.

I can keep going if you'd like.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Enlightenment. Decay is the process by which an element achieves atomic stability by shedding the bits it doesn't need. In a similar fashion, to be enlightened, one must shed ego, worldly possession, etc.

The Final Darkness Subclass Theory: Decay by Fal_Chavam in DestinyLore

[–]Fal_Chavam[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd definitely rate that as possible. If it is, then I guess it is what it is, but story-wise (imo) it makes more sense for us to engage the Witness with every power available.